Batteries. Cheap a cheerful, replace often or quality and maintain?

[bigste]

Bear in mind those £69 batteries apart from being a massive weight they are 2 and a half feet high. Consider the space and the ballast situation before you fork out. Got to admit though that it is very cheap for the performance.

[BEngo]

If all canal boats used Forklift batteries there wouldn't be a tenth of the threads on here with people having power problems. Nobody would even dream of using leisure batteries to supply an Off Grid house with power! A canal boat is an Off Grid house. Canal boats no longer use just one lightbulb they have microwaves, washing machines TV's etc used for hours every night. After 6 months of use a leisure battery has lost a lot of its capacity whereas a Forklift battery hasn't. A 620Ah 12v Forklift battery weighs 261 Kilos, how much do 5 leisure batteries weigh? Its the lead that counts.

A canal boat is not always an off-grid house. Some are, many are not.

 

Provided the battery is either charging, or discharging then, in broad terms, sulphation is not a problem. Once the battery has to stand, partially discharged then sulphation and loss of capacity become the problem.

 

Many boats need their batteries to stand all day because the owner is at work. Solar helps here but it's not always great in UK in the 'Summer' let alone the winter.

 

The advice to only buy good batteries if you can look after them is perfectly sound. Otherwise buy cheap and expect short life. Mistreated good batteries last little longer but cost lots more.

 

N

[EEng]

Here is a couple of houses running on forklift batteries that I have installed.

 

 

 

Is that install finished? Did you certify it (EIC) ? Or is it in some 3rd world country where installation standards and regulations are non-existent ?

 

Looks to be a complete lash up of wiring to be brutally honest........

 

Edited January 2, 2015 by EEng

[David Schweizer]

As no one has mentioned them yet, may I suggest you look at 6v US batteries :- http://www.tayna.co.uk/US-Battery-S603-1.html

We have two US125 batteries in our boat which are now over 9 years old and still holding their charge well, even between four weekly winter visits to the boat,

 

They are not cheap but probably well worth it in the long run, the last lot were 14 years old when I replaced them. Like fork lift truck batteries they are extra deep xycle units, but designed to be used in golf carts and other high demand electric vehicles.

[Neil Smith]

I worry about so called return batts as they could just test them and if good give them a clean up and sell on but they could be 10 years old or more and go down hill in a years time. I had a look at 2volt cells on bumble solar and can buy new for £113 each for 500 amp hours and they are only 550mm high.they do bigger but they are 695mm high but better value, google them as I don't know how to send a link, thick or what.

 

Neil

[Neil Smith]

sorry just reread my post it is bimble solar, said I was thick read twice send once.

 

Neil

[magnetman]

One problem I see with several cells being required to produce the required voltage is that if one cell fails you are stuck with no domestic dc power and you need to source an identical one to slot into the box.

If this happens with 110s you can lift out the offending batt and there will probably be a man in the nearest town with standard 110 size units so you don't have 'down time'

 

This is more important in cruising boats.

 

Expensive batteries DO fail sometimes (I know this from 2 failed Rolls 4000 6v blocks)

Ok so you get looked after by warrantu but losing dc power while cruising is annoying.

Several 12v 110s gives redundancy and when my current Rolls 4000s have died I will do 110s instead and replace them as soon as there are signs of deterioration.

 

 

2p

[Neil Smith]

Just reread again refurb not return, DOH.

 

Neil

[cuthound]

As no one has mentioned them yet, may I suggest you look at 6v US batteries :- http://www.tayna.co.uk/US-Battery-S603-1.html

We have two US125 batteries in our boat which are now over 9 years old and still holding their charge well, even between four weekly winter visits to the boat,

 

They are not cheap but probably well worth it in the long run, the last lot were 14 years old when I replaced them. Like fork lift truck batteries they are extra deep xycle units, but designed to be used in golf carts and other high demand electric vehicles.

Interesting. DQ is seven years old and still on the original American batteries. They are "Lifeline" AGM batteries and still function well. The leisure batteries are 6 x 6v batteries in series/parallel, to make installation and replacement physically easier, due to lower battery weight.

 

When I bought. DQ in June I looked up Lifeline batteries online. Great reviews but the price made my eyes water.

 

Hopefully they will last a while yet. If they make 14 years like your US batteries, they will prove to be very good value.

 

Does anyone on CWDF have experience of Lifeline batteries?

[magnetman]

I personally think secondhand is too risky if you are spending £500+

[Sea Dog]

If all canal boats used Forklift batteries there wouldn't be a tenth of the threads on here with people having power problems.

 

That may well be true, but it may also be the case if all canal boats were left in a marina on shore supply with a good charger. Not everyone has the budget for forklift batteries; not everyone has the inverter/charger equipment to maintain them properly; not everyone has a usage pattern to make the most of them.

 

I'm a similar position to the OP, having batteries that have been in my boat since new (2008) but, before I bought her, had spent most of their time alongside with shore supply available. Like the OP, I have no way of teling how they've been treated nor how much life they have left, particularly as my usage pattern is very different from the previous owner. They've been good for over a year so far though, touch wood, and I'll see how they go. I tend to agree with an earlier poster though - if the OPs original set up has lasted 8 years it can't be all bad and throwing similar batteries at it when these die wouldn't seem to be the worst thing he could do.

 

Sounds to me like there's enough left in the present batteries to leave them in place a little longer and therefore better evaluate the current setup versus his actual needs. Time may prove that a different set up would better suit the new usage pattern of the boat, or perhaps the current set up might be ideal compromise? There are no prizes for the fastest wrong answer.

[dmr]

Exactly what is a refurbished battery please???? Is this a bit like the "rebuilt" engines that dodgy London dealers used to sell?

 

I assume it is cleaned on the outside and hopefully flushed and refilled to clear any crud of the bottom. The active material on the plates will still be partly lost!

 

Magnetman raises a very good point. Some level of redundancy is essential for liveaboards and replacement traction cells are not always available next.day delivery!

 

I have seriously considered getting a set of two volt tractions, only having to maintain 6 cells is a bonus. I decided that the weight, height, and lack of redundancy were all negatives and that Trojans where the best compromise. Looking at various specs the cycle life of Tractions is better than Trojans but not by a huge amount!

 

.............Dave

[Groundhog]

Bear in mind those £69 batteries apart from being a massive weight they are 2 and a half feet high. Consider the space and the ballast situation before you fork out. Got to admit though that it is very cheap for the performance.

 

In my boat it would work. There's an adequate space where a suitable box could be fixed on the centre line of the boat at the back and I can get at enough ballast in the right place to remove it. Apart from moving large amounts of bricks and heavy batteries it wouldn't be much work. I'd need to move my inverter/charger to keep the cable runs to a minimum but there's space for that as well. The performance/price equation makes it a very tempting prospect. There's less than £50 difference between them and 4 cheapo leisure batteries. I want to know more about the abuse that these batteries can take though. As a hypothetical, I get called away from the boat and don't return for a week unexpectedly and the fridge and freezer have run the batteries completely flat, have I killed them or do I just need to get on shore power for a couple of days to get them fully charged again and restock my fridge?

 

Is that install finished? Did you certify it (EIC) ? Or is it in some 3rd world country where installation standards and regulations are non-existent ?

 

Looks to be a complete lash up of wiring to be brutally honest........

 

 

I think it's in Greece, based on the writing on the tubs of whatever they are. It isn't a pretty install, for the sake of a piece of ply on the wall for the cables to be fixed to properly it's a shame. That said, I imagine it works and being in a house it doesn't move about/vibrate so it will probably work forever.

[jim and pat dalton]

We have some Exide batteries on board that are quite old I would post a photo but don't know how.

 

I rang the number stamped on them but no reply. So phone Excide and gave them the model numbers and they said they are at least 15years old and came out of a power backup UPS system for computer mainframes or such like.

We were having some problems in the Summer with the Batteries going flat at 4am (due to having to run an inverter) every day when off grid.At the Crick in the mud show we talked to battery suppliers and were really getting no joy until I talked to http://www.pbbatteries.com/narrowboat-batteries/

 

The guy there really knew his batteries and spent time going through stuff with us, he also quoted me for a system ( with boat survey for fitting plus then fully fitted and old batts removed) for 2v batteries on a 600 a/h bank with a topping up system attached (so we don't have to crawl about checking and topping up in a confined space) for about £1k ish. expensive but worth it for longevity and ease of use I reckon

However we also needed both our under counter Fridge and Freezer to be changed first and we bought 12v units at the show and now we seem to have no problems with the existing bank.. so we will stick with our old (15 yr old) sealed batteries until such times as it becomes a pain. I will have no hesitation then in going for a 2V bank as recommended by posters above and we shall return to PB batteries for a new quote as they were so helpful.

I should also say we have 495w (which is more than we need) of solar power on the roof, thanks to the very helpful guys at Bimble Solar which cost me all of £530

Very happy

Jim

Edited January 2, 2015 by jim and pat dalton

[bizzard]

I certainly wouldn't fork out a forking big sum for ''second hand'' forking fork lift batteries, fork that!!

[Neil Smith]

Jim, Bimble solar do 2 volt cells 6oo amp for £116 each. I also spoke to the chap at crick but when I phoned pb batts they told me he has retired and new chap quoted a lot more for same set up.

Neil

[Groundhog]

I certainly wouldn't fork out a forking big sum for ''second hand'' forking fork lift batteries, fork that!!

 

You don't like the sound of second hand forklift batteries?

[magnetman]

I certainly wouldn't fork out a forking big sum for ''second hand'' forking fork lift batteries, fork that!!

And you need a forking forklift to pick the forkers up out of the engine 'ole when they cop it.

 

I'd spooner buy cheap easy to lift leisure batteries, nife and easy to get them out again

[cuthound]

We have some Exide batteries on board that are quite old I would post a photo but don't know how.

 

I rang the number stamped on them but no reply. So phone Excide and gave them the model numbers and they said they are at least 15years old and came out of a power backup UPS system for computer mainframes or such like.

We were having some problems in the Summer with the Batteries going flat at 4am (due to having to run an inverter) every day when off grid.At the Crick in the mud show we talked to battery suppliers and were really getting no joy until I talked to http://www.pbbatteries.com/narrowboat-batteries/

 

The guy there really knew his batteries and spent time going through stuff with us, he also quoted me for a system ( with boat survey for fitting plus then fully fitted and old batts removed) for 2v batteries on a 600 a/h bank with a topping up system attached (so we don't have to crawl about checking and topping up in a confined space) for about £1k ish. expensive but worth it for longevity and ease of use I reckon

However we also needed both our under counter Fridge and Freezer to be changed first and we bought 12v units at the show and now we seem to have no problems with the existing bank.. so we will stick with our old (15 yr old) sealed batteries until such times as it becomes a pain. I will have no hesitation then in going for a 2V bank as recommended by posters above and we shall return to PB batteries for a new quote as they were so helpful.

 

I should also say we have 495w (which is more than we need) of solar power on the roof, thanks to the very helpful guys at Bimble Solar which cost me all of £530

Very happy

 

Jim

 

15 years is an exceptional life for sealed batteries (I assume you mean valve regulated sealed lead acid batteries as these would typically be used in UPS and telecomms equipment since 1980). They have a design life of 10 years but usually last between 5 & 7 years. That are also not designed for regular deep discharges, but will take a rapid discharge (most UPS systems have a design battery autonomy of between 10 minutes and 1 hour, as they are only required to provide power until the standby generator has started. They spend most of their life being float charged.

[smileypete]

I have seriously considered getting a set of two volt tractions, only having to maintain 6 cells is a bonus.

 

If the current batts are Trojans etc, a watering kit can be had for <£100:

 

http://www.globalbatteryshop.com/stealth-float-valve-kits-371-p.asp

 

Saves risking holes in one's clothing...

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited January 2, 2015 by smileypete

[ditchcrawler]

 

If the current batts are Trojans etc, a watering kit can be had for <£100:

 

http://www.globalbatteryshop.com/stealth-float-valve-kits-371-p.asp

 

Saves risking holes in one's clothing...

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

£67 I wonder if that is what Biggles fitted on his barge.

[matty40s]

I have just replaced my 8 year old (minimum) 7 x 110ah Albion leisure batteries with 6 x 120ah cheapo batteries. The old bank are now being used as an electric fence power source at a stable.

I toyed with the idea of tractions/gel/agm/forklift etc,but didn't want to have to build a new battery case and loose the existing floor height I have in my engine hole.

[Naughty Cal]

Unless you are going to look after the expensive batteries just replace them with cheap ones. You can kill expensive ones just as quickly as cheap ones.

[David Schweizer]

Unless you are going to look after the expensive batteries just replace them with cheap ones. You can kill expensive ones just as quickly as cheap ones.

 

I never really understand what people mean by "looking after" batteries. I am not aware that I particularly look after the batteries on or boat, and they seem to last for a very long time. Yes I ensure that the electrolyte is at the correct level , and I always ensure that they are fully charged before I leave the boat for more than a day, but that is it.

 

We do not live aboard, except when cruising, and normally move for at least five hours each day, so the batteries get re-charged every day they are in use. People also talk about balancing their batteries, but I have no idea what that means, perhaps I am doing that without realizing it.

 

I sometimes wonder whether there is a lot of "smoke and mirrors" about battery management generated by people who want others to believe they are experts.

[dmr]

 

I never really understand what people mean by "looking after" batteries. I am not aware that I particularly look after the batteries on or boat, and they seem to last for a very long time. Yes I ensure that the electrolyte is at the correct level , and I always ensure that they are fully charged before I leave the boat for more than a day, but that is it.

 

We do not live aboard, except when cruising, and normally move for at least five hours each day, so the batteries get re-charged every day they are in use. People also talk about balancing their batteries, but I have no idea what that means, perhaps I am doing that without realizing it.

 

I sometimes wonder whether there is a lot of "smoke and mirrors" about battery management generated by people who want others to believe they are experts.

 

1 Keeping the water level correct.

2 Avoiding over discharge.

3 Achieving 100% charge on a regular basis (can be very challenging especially for off-grid liveaboards).

4 Equalisation when required (including knowing when it is required!).

5 Keeping terminals clean and tight.

 

Sounds easy, almost trivial, but many posts on this forum suggest that it is beyond many boaters! I'm an engineer and it took me a couple of years to get competent at it!

 

..........Dave