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I love a really hot Shower!


Lostsky

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I wasn't suggesting anyone replace a Morco with a Vaillant!

 

I was simply making the point that in general gas water heaters are capable of providing hot showers, contrary to what one poster had said.

 

You do seem to get the wrong end of the stick quite often Mike, sometimes it seems intentionally?

 

I hope that's clear now.

 

No not at all. I tend to read threads and write answers with the OP in mind. I didn't realise you were attempting to drag the thread off topic into general comment.

 

I thought that like me, you were trying to advise and help the OP. I obviously got that one wrong then!

 

MtB

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Interesting. Can you confirm

 

1) you mean you have a D61 and it works perfectly with a shower please?

 

2) if so, confirm that you using it with the gas flame size set to MAX please?

 

Thanks.

 

I ask because I have yet to encounter a Morco D61 that works properly on MAX with a shower.

 

 

MtB

I have a Morco D-61B and it works perfectly with a Whale pump and taps. The problem I have with it is that in Winter, when the tank's below about 5C, I can't always run the water heater at a setting that gives me a shower that's hot enough, but not scalding hot without adding cold water, and if I add too much cold, then the flow in the water heater drops enough to turn the flame down, so it takes some very careful adjustment of the cold tap in the shower at times. Once I got the trick, it was fine.

 

When the tank's above about 10C, I just set the flame control knob to the Sharpie mark on the heater, and adjust the temperature with the water flow control.

 

This morning, with frost outside and the tank well chilled, flat out flame and almost the highest water temperature setting gave me a nice hot shower.

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I have a Morco D-61B and it works perfectly with a Whale pump and taps. The problem I have with it is that in Winter, when the tank's below about 5C, I can't always run the water heater at a setting that gives me a shower that's hot enough, but not scalding hot without adding cold water, and if I add too much cold, then the flow in the water heater drops enough to turn the flame down, so it takes some very careful adjustment of the cold tap in the shower at times. Once I got the trick, it was fine.

 

When the tank's above about 10C, I just set the flame control knob to the Sharpie mark on the heater, and adjust the temperature with the water flow control.

 

This morning, with frost outside and the tank well chilled, flat out flame and almost the highest water temperature setting gave me a nice hot shower.

 

Thanks John. Yours exhibits the problem in its minor form then, and it doesn't "work perfectly"!

 

Mine randomly modulates the flame up and down just as you describe, leading to wide swings in shower temp. On some cold water mix settings, the major version of the problem occurs, the flames alternating between OFF and MAX. Very interesting that yours doesn't do this.

 

I was rather hoping that B0atman might answer in the affirmative as he is only a mile up the cut from me, and I could maybe take a look at his installation to see if I can see why his works and mine doesn't...

 

MtB

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Mike, the problem on mine is related solely to the fact that the pump can't generate enough flow to feed the water heater and the cold tap with full pressure at the same time. If the cold tap isn't running, the flame stays on maximum with no problems at all, no matter what the setting of the water flow control is. I've not tried it yet on a direct shore water connection with the consequent improved flow rate or a bigger pump.

I've used quite a few similar systems in caravans over the last 30 years or so, and the only thing I've normally made sure of on these systems is that the pressure switch is downstream of the water heater, which gives a lower static pressure in the pipework when all the taps are off, and reducing the flow rate in the heater doesn't cause the water pump to cycle on and off. These have been mostly with Vaillant heaters, and gave good control of water temperature using the control on the heater.

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My water heater Morco, model am not on boat so no idea.

I set Morco to maximum power and temperature and could easily scold myself .

The flames run constantly on these settings .

Now when in shower I have a temperature controlled mixer tap so this controls temperature at shower head I set this just above the red button safety setting.

Lovely hot shower.

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No not at all. I tend to read threads and write answers with the OP in mind. I didn't realise you were attempting to drag the thread off topic into general comment.

 

I thought that like me, you were trying to advise and help the OP. I obviously got that one wrong then!

 

MtB

 

I don't think I was dragging the thread off topic at all. Had it occurred to you that indirectly it may have helped the OP to know that some instant gas water heaters were indeed capable of supplying hot water to the shower, contrary to what an earlier poster had said?

 

I wasn't recommending my water heater specifically, but if mine can do it then presumably so can others, which anyone who reads the thread can see is in fact the case.

Edited by blackrose
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I wasn't recommending my water heater specifically, but if mine can do it then presumably so can others, which anyone who reads the thread can see is in fact the case.

 

That was never in question though, from reading post #1 on the thread:

 

 

Hi All,

 

Please can I ask your advice on achieving a roasting hot shower all year round using an LPG instant water heater?

 

My boyfriend and live all year round on our 55ft Narrow boat. We used to have an instant Rinnai which did the job very well. Although the heater flames would cut in and out with the pressure dropping before the pump cycles, the heater managed to warm the water sufficiently to produce a wonderfully hot shower all year round.

Unfortunately the Rinnai packed up and I bought a second hand Morco D61b water heater for £150 to replace it..... However it is awful and won’t heat the water anywhere near high enough. It appears to be much more sensitive to our low water pressure and even when the flames are on full blast it just won’t produce hot water, only warmish water.

I am now on the hunt for something better but:

* The Rinnai instant heaters are not being made anymore and I can’t find one anywhere.

* I began to consider buying a brand new Morco to replace my second hand one (in case there is a problem with it) but have now read that the Morco can only heat the water 25 degrees above the original water temperature. This is absolutely no good considering the water in my tank is now about 4 degrees!

* I have heard that the Paloma's are good but can't seem to find one for sale...

 

Please can I ask what LBG instant water heater and pumps you you would recommend? I am happy to buy a new heater and pump (if necessary) so long as it will provide the hot showers I miss so much!

Thank you :-)

 

The subject of the topic isn't "is it possible to have a decent shower with an instant gas water heater" its "what's out there on the market which is a reasonable replacement for my broken Rinnai?"

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Bosch available here, Google finds a few other places:

 

http://www.caravanaccessoryshop.co.uk/product/bosch-w11-lpg-water-heater/4565

http://www.caravanaccessoryshop.co.uk/product/bosch-w1359-lpg-water-heater/3442

 

Pity the Rinnai REU58 seems to be discontinued, as the yen is quite weak at the moment.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

 

Cool! Might try one of those then!

 

Not surprised the Rinnai is discontinued, It was a pile of shite in my opinion, as both a repair techy and owner/user.

 

MtB

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Having a small calorifier heated by the engine or the Alde 2920 (5.2KW) I can have a stinging hot shower within an hour of lighting the boiler and 30 minutes after starting the engine. Undoubtedly, 13Kg propane cylinders are the most expensive way to heat a boat but some of the analyses ignore the fact that the lost heat from the boiler and the calorifier heat the cabin unless the calorifier is installed in a cold space such as the engine room. Obviosuly, the best place for the calorifier is under the airing cupboard.

 

What price the luxury of a hot shower? I cannot 'get going' without a hot shower in the morning. To reduce water consumption I have throttled back my shower; it no longer provides the stinging bees of a power shower from a typical Shurflow pump.

 

Previous threads convinced me that I would be better off with an instantaneous water heater, now I am not so sure. Clearly, instantaneous heaters are 'finicky' about flow rates. The fix may be as simple as cleaning hard water deposits from the shower head. My cheap, plastic showerhead can be dismantled with a large screwdriver or a suitable coin. More recent, flexible, shower heads may only require a rub with a thumb to clear the jets or a poke with a toothpick.

 

HTH, Alan

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My water heater Morco, model am not on boat so no idea.

I set Morco to maximum power and temperature and could easily scold myself .

The flames run constantly on these settings .

Now when in shower I have a temperature controlled mixer tap so this controls temperature at shower head I set this just above the red button safety setting.

Lovely hot shower.

 

Would be good to know the make and model of pump is used, so it's flow rate and cutout pressure can be found.

 

Sounds like it's working well with a thermostatic mixer even, the holy grail of boat showering! Is the make and model of that known too? With a thermo mixer I'd expect a low pressure model to have better luck.

 

Anyway I reckon a lot of heater issues are down to water supply issues, occasionally gas maybe. Without any decent measurements it's hard to diagnose whether it's the heater at fault - or not....

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited by smileypete
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AFAIK yes, but for liveaboard it needs to be installed by a gas safe engineer with the relevant qualifications; or someone who is competent (another can of worms). There is a lot more to the regs than that, so I'm happy to be corrected on the details etc.

Could someone please enlighten me as to what the regs are on retrofitting a Morco (not a replacement). Who can fit it, can it go in a spare bedroom or does it have to be the kitchen area? My shower doesn't have separate hot and cold taps, just a central temperature control. Would this make a difference to anything?

 

I am currently reliant on either engine or immersion heater for hot water and will be living out and about on the canal for an extended period shortly. Instant water heater seems to be the best option for getting a morning shower without having to run the engine every night which I would prefer not to have to do.

Many thanks.

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Could someone please enlighten me as to what the regs are on retrofitting a Morco (not a replacement). Who can fit it, can it go in a spare bedroom or does it have to be the kitchen area? My shower doesn't have separate hot and cold taps, just a central temperature control. Would this make a difference to anything?

 

I am currently reliant on either engine or immersion heater for hot water and will be living out and about on the canal for an extended period shortly. Instant water heater seems to be the best option for getting a morning shower without having to run the engine every night which I would prefer not to have to do.

Many thanks.

 

It sounds as if you are a liveaboard if so, I would suggest that if an unqualified person cannot even loosen a 'nipple' on a test point, the replacement / retrofitting / relocation / installation of a new water heater would certainly come under the GSIUR regulations.

 

You need to ensure that the 'Gas Safe' engineer you use has LPG / Boats on his 'ticket' - a Gas safe engineer for houses, LPG, caravans is not certified to work on boats. I asked the gas-bod who does our caravan site, he said because of the 'small market for boat work' (ie residential boats only) very few Gas Safe Engineers go the the trouble or expense of getting the boat-certification.

 

From the BSS :-

 

Carrying out 'work on the gas system of boats used for primarily residential purposes fall within scope of a piece of UK legislation known as the Gas Safety [installation and Use] Regulations (GSIUR).

As such, anyone contracted to 'work' on the LPG system of a boat in scope must be by law Gas Safe registered. As the definition of 'work' covers the removal and replacement of the nipple on a gas tightness-test point so this law also covers carrying out BSS tightness-test with a manometer.

This means that if a boat is in scope of GSIUR and the BSS Examiner is not Gas Safe registered, he or she can only carry out a full BSS Examination if:

  • a bubble tester is fitted and correctly located; or,
  • the examiner observes a Gas Safe registered technician carrying out the tightness-test with a manometer.
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When the BSS comes around it will show a different model and serial number

Do they record that? I have never noticed in all the years I have watched them bss'ing our boat.

 

Being old enough (launched 1991) we have a Paloma and hope it never fails, we carry a spare of the only bit thats given up to date, touch wood.... It gives a shower that after a days boating covered in coal smoke, is amazing, but would leave a lot to be desired in most other situations. Fine jet head, non-thermostatic mixed, pumps a bit weedy (parmax 2.4?) but it works.

 

My parents house is on stored hotwater (immersion, no mains gas) which is great till the tank runs out but even with a large tank that happens more than enough when we're all home for christmas.

 

I have a Main HE30 combi at my house, which is great as it never runs out and is only mains pressure so gives good flow, but is clearly running flat out when showering. It quotes 12l/min at 35deg raise which is normally, but if you shower late into the night when the mains pressure is a bit higher you have to throttle the flow just slightly to get it to the ideal temp.

 

 

 

The Rinnai 58e seems to quote 25°C at 5.2 l/min

The D61B-D61E does a very simular 25 at 5.4 l/min with the G11E claiming 25 at 11 l/min

 

The Alde 2920 is the one thats about 6inch square and 6ft tall isnt it?

 

 

 

Daniel

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Do they record that? I have never noticed in all the years I have watched them bss'ing our boat.

 

Being old enough (launched 1991) we have a Paloma and hope it never fails. It gives a shower that after a days boating is amazing but would leave a lot to be desired.

 

Being inconsistent some may, and some may not.

 

Certainly when we bought our previous boat there were additional pages (to the "BSS Top Copy") showing each appliance, model, serial number, 'volume of air needed' (to calculate ventilation), 'powered by' (Gas, solid fuel, electricity or diesel)

 

I do not know if this new 'computerised' system still collects the same information.

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Being inconsistent some may, and some may not.

Fair enough, ours has the make/model I think, but not the serial no which is what I was questioning.

But your certainly right, that if you added a 'new, old' boiler and claimed it had been in for years it could well stand out.

 

 

Equally, if a domestic boiler can do 35*12=420 degree litres per min, and most 'marine' units are doing more like 24*5.4=130 °l/min you are just simply not going to get the same shower this side of uping the game quite a lot! You might also get some 'some gas' running said shower!

 

Daniel

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Yes Dan's Main 30HE at home has a nominal heat output to hot water of of 30kW set against a nominal heat output of 9.4kW for a Morco D61 with flame set to 'HIGH'.

 

The problem with the Morco is with the flame on 'HIGH' it generally doesn't work reliably with a shower (although one or two people are now popping up on here saying theirs does) so the flame has to be set to 'LOW'. This further reduces the output to about 6kW at a guess.

 

MtB

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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It sounds as if you are a liveaboard if so, I would suggest that if an unqualified person cannot even loosen a 'nipple' on a test point, the replacement / retrofitting / relocation / installation of a new water heater would certainly come under the GSIUR regulations.

 

You need to ensure that the 'Gas Safe' engineer you use has LPG / Boats on his 'ticket' - a Gas safe engineer for houses, LPG, caravans is not certified to work on boats. I asked the gas-bod who does our caravan site, he said because of the 'small market for boat work' (ie residential boats only) very few Gas Safe Engineers go the the trouble or expense of getting the boat-certification.

 

From the BSS :-

 

Carrying out 'work on the gas system of boats used for primarily residential purposes fall within scope of a piece of UK legislation known as the Gas Safety [installation and Use] Regulations (GSIUR).

As such, anyone contracted to 'work' on the LPG system of a boat in scope must be by law Gas Safe registered. As the definition of 'work' covers the removal and replacement of the nipple on a gas tightness-test point so this law also covers carrying out BSS tightness-test with a manometer.

This means that if a boat is in scope of GSIUR and the BSS Examiner is not Gas Safe registered, he or she can only carry out a full BSS Examination if:

  • a bubble tester is fitted and correctly located; or,
  • the examiner observes a Gas Safe registered technician carrying out the tightness-test with a manometer.

 

 

Ok thanks. Yes you are correct I am a liveaboard. Can anyone recommend a gas safe engineer for boats near Birmingham please?

 

Have I read somewhere that it's hard to find one willing to fit an instant water heater as the only one suitable for boats due to flue height issues isn't room sealed? If so, where does that leave me- apart from running the engine every night :)

 

All help appreciated. Thanks. I'm still fairly new to boating as you can probably tell.

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The problem with the Morco is with the flame on 'HIGH' it generally doesn't work reliably with a shower (although one or two people are now popping up on here saying theirs does) so the flame has to be set to 'LOW'. This further reduces the output to about 6kW at a guess.

 

MtB

Mine is the opposite. Max only. I mix cold in at the taps. Anything lower than max and the flame cuts in and out. I called morco about it but unless you can give a gas safe number immediately you can't even get past the reception desk.

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Ok thanks. Yes you are correct I am a liveaboard. Can anyone recommend a gas safe engineer for boats near Birmingham please?

 

Have I read somewhere that it's hard to find one willing to fit an instant water heater as the only one suitable for boats due to flue height issues isn't room sealed? If so, where does that leave me- apart from running the engine every night smile.png

 

All help appreciated. Thanks. I'm still fairly new to boating as you can probably tell.

 

For liveaboard, best get a personal recommendation from boating friend/neighbour or reputable boatyard, then check they are registered with a boats ticket on the Gas Safe website.

 

Failing that, try the search facility on the website but use the advanced search to narrow it down to boats. Ideally cross reference with something like Checkatrade too if you can, and get a few quotes and see who comes across best.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited by smileypete
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