Just how safe is our National Heritage? This should not have happened

[Laurence Hogg]

Back in the mid to late 1990's and early 2000's Chris Coburn and myself with a well organized crew undertook some remarkable cruises aboard NB "Progress" reaching parts of the waterway system seldom boated or accessed. This involved coastal and sea passages for "Progress" which had been built and adapted for this type of cruising.

We arrived in many unusual destinations, got into the odd sticky situation but managed as the intent was to raise the awareness of little used, endangered or not easy to reach navigations.

In 1998 we undertook a cruise to Caernarfon exiting the canal system via the Mersey and then coast hopping to the Menai Strait through which we accessed Caernarfon, the cruise was an entire success and we promoted the plight then of the Lichfield & Hatherton canals.

On our return run we did the Conway, the full Mersey and even the Sankey. Then we headed to Birkenhead.

 

Here our mooring proved a little unusual! The only place to tie up was to HMS Onyx, a "Oberon" class submarine. It wasn't easy, plus to dis embark we had to get over the submarine and then up onto HMS Plymouth and onto the dock.

 

 

All this was rather fun and we had a great stay there. The ships were part of the "Historic Warship Trust" and had the German U Boat U534 on the dockside for company. "Plymouth" was the scene of the Falklands war surrender and Onyx the only diesel powered sub to fight in the Falklands.

For any visitor it was a great day out.

 

 

 

Sadly to cut the story short the adjacent buildings were to be converted into apartment and the HWT were asked to find another berth.

The trust went into liquidation.

 

The ships became assets of the Mersey Docks and Harbour board.

 

Peel Holdings took over the Mersey Docks and Harbour board.

 

An attempt to form a trust and get HMS Plymouth preserved in Millbay docks failed, despite the ship being host to the Argentine surrender in the Falklands war!!

 

HMS Onyx was taken to Barrow in Furness where she was set up as a museum ship, this too foundered and hope was that she would go to Greenock where most of her class had been built,

This failed too.

 

The U boat has been cut into four parts and is mounted dockside in Birkenhead, very sad as the overall impression of the shape of the boat is lost.

 

As for the other two,

 

HMS Plymouth was sold to a Turkish ship breaker in October and is now cut up.

 

HMS Onyx suffered the same fate in Rosneath last month,

 

From those photos only Chris Coburn;s "Progress" now survives.

 

Should we treat our National heritage like this?

 

 

 

 

[Sea Dog]

Keeping ageing warships and submarines even just as a floating museum piece is inordinately expensive. Frankly, we've seen far better ships and submarines than these two, both historic and contemporary, sent to scrap. I agree with your sentiments, admire your zeal, love your photos and am impressed by the story you relate here, but I'm sad to say that you're flogging a dead horse.

[Bee]

No, we should not but the key words are 'national' and 'heritage' , both imply a sense of shared British ownership and therefore national funding. That is not going to happen. I would think that a national maritime museum of ships, not that place in Greenwich full of portraits, would have been easy to achieve. How about Hull or Grimsby? both those places would have been ideal, still plenty of interesting ships about, it's where to put them is the difficult bit. As far as funding goes I'm afraid its down to wealthy patriotic philanthropists, not many of them about any more.

[John V]

The history of ship preservation in Britain is littered with great vessels lost to posterity.......The Golden Hind was preserved under cover only to fall victim of neglect and was broken up after 100 years of preservation. The remains of HMS Beagle lie under the mud of the river Crouch. I don't know its final fate but the last of the heroic fleet of wooden minesweepers the famous "Mickey Mouse" boats was lying on the marshes with an ageing band of dedicated men trying to reduce the deterioration so that may be she could be restored. Not forgetting the tragic loss of the Marie Assumpter off the Cornish coast a few years ago.

The list is endless.......I think we have to be just grateful that we have such as the Victory, Warrior, Trincomalee and Reaper and others to still marvel at

[Québec]

Here's the official, English Heritage policy on the whats and whys of conservation:

 

http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/professional/advice/hpg/generalintro/heritageconservationdefined/

[Chalky]

I suspect that like anything that could be associated with our Imperial past some are only to keen to see the ships assigned to the scrap heap. We've lost a lot of important heritage - I'd love to have seen a proper 15" Dreadnought preserved.

[Kwacker]

I suspect that like anything that could be associated with our Imperial past some are only to keen to see the ships assigned to the scrap heap. We've lost a lot of important heritage - I'd love to have seen a proper 15" Dreadnought preserved.

Just pop over the Atlantic

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Texas_(BB-35)

Although she's only 14"

Edited December 21, 2014 by Kwacker

[Slim]

Depressing.

 

In the late 90's and soon after my wife died I regularly went up to Liverpool to see her family. On one visit, as a surprise, my brother-in-law arranged for us to go to Birkenhead and have a tour of Onyx, Plymouth and U534. To this day it remains one of the most amazing days of my life. In particular the tour of U534 . I simply can't describe the experience you need to have seen it. It had been left exactly as it had been found when raised in the 80s? Down to personal possessions, food and equipment. No attempt had been made to restore anything. The most disturbing (can't describe it any better) thing I saw were the wedges the crew had tried to drive into splits in the hull to block leaks.I can't imagine the fear they must have experienced. 'Das Boot' takes on a whole new meaning.

 

Google U534. It's well worth it.

 

 

Frank

[Derek R.]

All due to lies and apathy. We have lost our Nation let alone anything within it. The English Heritage pages give legal definitions, nothing of what they can actually achieve - which is precious little save pages of words. Most conservation is down to individuals with the resources, determination and manpower - volunteers in the main, occasionally supported by lottery funds but more often by many small amounts from many pockets - like bricks and the Chesterfield. More power to them I say.

[Laurence Hogg]

Depressing.

 

In the late 90's and soon after my wife died I regularly went up to Liverpool to see her family. On one visit, as a surprise, my brother-in-law arranged for us to go to Birkenhead and have a tour of Onyx, Plymouth and U534. To this day it remains one of the most amazing days of my life. In particular the tour of U534 . I simply can't describe the experience you need to have seen it. It had been left exactly as it had been found when raised in the 80s? Down to personal possessions, food and equipment. No attempt had been made to restore anything. The most disturbing (can't describe it any better) thing I saw were the wedges the crew had tried to drive into splits in the hull to block leaks.I can't imagine the fear they must have experienced. 'Das Boot' takes on a whole new meaning.

 

Google U534. It's well worth it.

 

 

Frank

I too went on board U534 just after she arrived, you were told to wear old clothes and could not take any cameras on board. It was amazing to see as stated exactly as found, mugs still on shelves, clothes hanging up and the captains chart still on the map table. The engine room had parts in vices being worked on, the galley had remnants of the days meal, it was an incredible experience. I remember the water mark too which showed how much she had flooded, below it was all brown and above the hull lining (a kind of plastic sheet) was as fitted. This is now lost to a clinical separation of four parts of the hull which whilst giving the visitor excellent accessibility has lost the atmosphere of as it was, such a shame. Maybe if the Irish raise one of the U boats as they have disussed they will leave it as found.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Laurence Hogg

[Machpoint005]

One question ...

 

Who Pays?

[John V]

One question ...

 

Who Pays?

 

That as always is the crux

 

Also how many vessels should be preserved and which ones ? As boat enthusiasts we all would like to see more preserved and we probably all have one whose passing we mourn. The big vessels require an enormous amount of money to maintain and I think we are fortunate to have as many as we do. I already mentioned Victory, Warrior, Tricomalee but we also have the Unicorn, Discovery, Great Britain, Belfast, Shieldhall,Waverly

and there are many other vessels tucked away around our coast. I don't think we should be all doom and gloom about this. There are actually very many preserved vessels some owned by groups or societies and some in private hands.

Edited December 22, 2014 by John V

[Nightwatch]

All the ships on which I served have either gone to razor blades or sold to other navies.

 

I would have liked all of them saved, especially my first, HMS Euryalus. Oh! And HMS Exmouth,the test bed for all future Gas Turbine RN ships, it was like a 1500 ton speedboat, and that was with governors employed. And then there was HMS Birmingham, we were patrolling the Gulf in 1979. As our certificate stated, 'To ensure 'oil' was well'!

 

HMS Antrim that was in the Falklands. Then of course the Shiney Shef. HMS Sheffield,we know what happened to that one. I was onboard whilst completing build in Barrow in 1974/5, during the first year of her commission.

 

What I'm saying, if you have served on a ship they are special to you.

 

In answer to the OP, our heritage is not exactly safe, there are perhaps more important projects to allocate money to, sad,but evidentially true.

 

Martyn

[pearley]

That as always is the crux

 

Also how many vessels should be preserved and which ones ? As boat enthusiasts we all would like to see more preserved and we probably all have one whose passing we mourn. The big vessels require an enormous amount of money to maintain and I think we are fortunate to have as many as we do. I already mentioned Victory, Warrior, Tricomalee but we also have the Unicorn, Discovery, Great Britain, Belfast, Shieldhall,Waverly

and there are many other vessels tucked away around our coast. I don't think we should be all doom and gloom about this. There are actually very many preserved vessels some owned by groups or societies and some in private hands.

 

And HMS Cavalier, the last of the 2nd World War destroyers. I remember when she was in Southampton with hopes of preservation. When that failed she went all over the place but happily is now safe at Chatham.

 

It is a pity about HMS Plymouth. When we moored for last winter in Liverpool she was plainly on view in the shipyard at Birkenhead,neither from the promenade or from the ferry.

Edited December 22, 2014 by pearley

[Mirithehamster]

hmm well i think its stupid to List Daresbury the oldest Mersey/ weaver Flat still as a Scheduled monument, it should be taken off raised and restored as floating working holiday craft but in the orignal shape and still be kept as a Mersey/ weaver flat on the sankey canal or the Manchester ship canal, better to restore it than let it rot away in Sutton Level Locks

Here's the official, English Heritage policy on the whats and whys of conservation:

http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/professional/advice/hpg/generalintro/heritageconservationdefined/

don't get me started with english Heritage and Historic england, they let ships rot away, like the other mersey flat the saved in the 1970s, The daresbury should be taken away from both of them, this how i would like to see the Daresbury, http://static.artuk.org/w800h800/CHE/CHE_NWMU_941_17.jpg

Edited October 20, 2016 by Mirithehamster

[Heartland]

42 Historic Buildings across the West Midlands alone have been added to the buildings at risk, as we head for 2017, any ready source for funds for maintaining our diverse heritage are rapidly receding. With the return to Victorian values, sadly there is little future. Record everything whilst you can as it may soon disappear.

[carlt]

We can wave bye bye to any future EU grants too...

[Machpoint005]

So, to echo my post no.11 from nearly two years ago,

 

Who Pays?

 

I suspect the answer is "nobody", so nothing gets done. I am not judging whether that is a Good Thing or a Crying Shame, but it remains a Fact.

We can wave bye bye to any future EU grants too...

 

Careful where you wave that opinion around ... political overtones!

[furnessvale]

We can wave bye bye to any future EU grants too...

Let's not get political be seeing how you mentioned it, there are no such things as EU grants. What there are is UK money being returned to the UK but only AFTER the EU has stripped out its slice of cash AND given strict instructions on how we can spend what's left.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[carlt]

Let's not get political be seeing how you mentioned it, there are no such things as EU grants. What there are is UK money being returned to the UK but only AFTER the EU has stripped out its slice of cash AND given strict instructions on how we can spend what's left.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

I wasn't getting political at all but seeing how you have what are the chances of the UK government taking that money and funneling it back into heritage grants?

 

About the same as the £350 million a week for the NHS lie.

[Derek R.]

We can wave bye bye to any future EU grants too...

 

I wasn't getting political at all but seeing how you have what are the chances of the UK government taking that money and funneling it back into heritage grants?

 

About the same as the £350 million a week for the NHS lie.

 

Stop listening to liars. Both sides were 'at it'. No, there won't be any extra money available, and the probability is in the short term things will get tight. But long term, once our government get used to governing again (that's going to be a steep learning curve for many), there will be improvements. It's just that no-one can make any predictions of any real value, and won't be able to for many years to come.

 

Basically, the actual payments made to the EU by the UK was (and still is) £13B pa, (after the rebate of £5B) or £250,000 per wk. Then the EU pays back grants - subsidies for agriculture, industries and education to name a few, so the nett payment to the EU ends up as £9B, or £173m per week. Per capita that's £2.88p per week or 41p per day. The £350M, as well as the £4,300 cost per family per year for leaving - was clap-trap. Did anyone really believe that?

 

But despite what the media would have people believe, the referendum was not about money, not about trade, and not about immigration (though they were part of the reason why many did vote as they did). It was about being subordinate to a supranational, unelected (by the people), foreign based government. In short: giving our Nation away, let alone any "heritage". One might ask 'What Nation?' Well, the past forty odd years have seen it debased and decimated, slowly but surely into a shadow of fading memories.

[carlt]

 

 

Stop listening to liars. Both sides were 'at it'. No, there won't be any extra money available, and the probability is in the short term things will get tight. But long term, once our government get used to governing again (that's going to be a steep learning curve for many), there will be improvements.

 

Even if that's true I dread to think what projects will fail and how much of our heritage will be lost before any "recovery" begins.

 

(least political response I could manage).

[rivergate]

It was about being subordinate to a supranational, unelected (by the people), foreign based government.

 

...is that right..? .....take out 'foreign' - although we could argue about the nationality of the ownership of banking, and food within the UK as well as who is paying tax here and contributing to the revenue the country uses to pay for social/education and health services, isn't that what we actually have..?

 

The Government appears to be setting up special ( paid for by us ) deals for the bankers so they can remain within the EU - why are they doing this and who benefits from it...?....how much has been lost to our balance sheet by devaluing the pound and who benefits from that..?

 

The real telling statistic post EU referendum was the enormous number of hits on google the day after from within the UK asking ''What is the EU..?''

[Derek R.]

Foreign as in Rome, Frankfurt, Strasbourg, Brussels.

Biscuits and banking - they're global. Or if you like Eccles cakes or Shrewsbury biscuits - local.

Education and health? Judging by the claim of those Google hits, perhaps education is lacking.

 

There are more blogs and websites than you can shake a stick at about the pro's and con's of EU membership. Best left to them.

 

We bemoan loss of our National Heritage within the scope of canals and their infrastructure, but who pays for their retention? Who uses the buildings as they were built? Who uses the wharves, basins and interchange yards in the condition they were built? Who is going to fund to extract, buy, and maintain such vessels that are in Hawtry's pit? Some of these things can be retained, but seldom for what they were built. That means massive changes in facilities and services, so even then some things are lost. As for the rest - record all to film and document. Because they won't last forever. Lifestyles change. Places change. Taxes don't though, except to get more onerous.

[Mirithehamster]

Another vessel the Nation Lost was The Last Ever Built Mersey Flat Ruth Bate The 'Ruth Bate', the last Mersey Flat built in Runcorn, launched 18th March 1953. Built at Abel's yard, Castle Rock Runcorn, photo is of Ruth Bate At Spike Island West Bank Widnes on 20th June 1987. Destroyed by fire in 1996 by Orders of HBC the lock keeper at Spike Island at the time told me he was told to set her on fire by HBC because they wanted her out of the way. second photo is of her launch, Plus my late father who worked with wood for 47 years at the time just before she was set on fire said she could still be restored in 1996, but Ruth Bate would have to go to somewhere like Camel Lairds for restoration, HBC did not listern nor care. In fact had HBC listerned the Nation would still have her and no doubt afloat.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Mirithehamster