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58' 1996 Liverpool boat £34k


AftApeth

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Hello. You may have seen this post a while ago about a £340k boat. I went to see it on Thursday and would appreciate any thoughts anyone might have about it.

 

It was of course a typo and the listing price should have been £34k. I thought it might be worth checking out as the typo might mean it's been overlooked by others and not showing up in searches for a certain price range. I've upped my budget a little since I started looking a couple of months ago, mainly after reading some sage advice aimed at others on these forums, and am now looking around the £30k mark, possibly rising to £32k for the right boat. My thinking on viewing the advert was that although the boat looks a bit tired and chintzy from the photos and didn't particularly grab me, there are a few positives: lots of potential with the space (second cabin could become home office), choice of solid fuel burner or diesel powered radiators, separate diesel generator (though needs some work), washing machine, eye-level oven, mixture of portholes and hopper windows (a few threads on here suggest this is desirable: portholes for cabin, hoppers for saloon and kitchen), and the paint job looks in very good condition on the outside. Plus, the seller is emigrating and may be keen to get rid and do a deal.

 

Anyway, called to arrange viewing and spoke to Paul, who is a friend of Allan the owner. Paul wrote the Apollo Duck advert for Allan since Allan is in his 70s and 'not good with computers'. Hence a few shaky details in the ad ('water clarifier') based on mishearings. Paul said Allan was abroad but would be back soon so we could arrange a viewing next week. Then I got a call from Allan Thursday morning, saying he'd just landed at 1am and hadn't slept but would be keen for me to come and see as soon as possible. Arranged to go at 2pm.

 

Met Allan and he immediately wanted to get down to brass tacks: if I put a deposit down I could claim it straight away, he could wait a few months if I wanted to pay him something now and something later. A little odd, since I hadn't even mentioned the possibility of buying. I wanted to see the boat first, which seemed to me a sensible way to go about things. Had a good look around the outside, was encouraged to get down on my knees and feel the sides under the water line – very smooth indeed, no pitting. Didn't warm to the boat when I got on board. It looked tired and unloved, though very clean and neat. Allan talked a bit about the features and I asked if he had a recent survey. He dodged the question and said he'd get to that. At this point I should note that he seemed a little inflexible and unusual in his manners, so I thought best to let him give the tour and presentation as he'd obviously planned it all and get to the paperwork in his own time. At the engine room, things got a little vague regarding the current battery-charging set-up. The generator wasn't working but he was sure it was a simple fix, possibly an alternator brush, and there seemed some Heath Robinson setup that involved coupling the engine with the generator, which was connected to the Mastervolt battery charger (which I was informed no less than three times cost 'money'). When I tried to get a little clearer about the setup he did confirm that the batteries will charge directly from the engine at the moment. He has a bank of seven leisure batteries on a relay.

 

He was in the middle of telling me about his licence and mooring, when I seized on a pause to ask about the diesel central heating (if this seems rude, there weren't many such pauses to seize upon). Did it work? The first answer was 'Yes', then after a couple more sentences about the licence it changed on reflection to 'It did when I last used it, but I prefer to use the stove'. I let him talk me through the paperwork without interruption, though this only consisted of his 'MOTs' going back many years. These were of course just the BSS certificates. I let him talk to see if he would get to my survey question as promised. It was never mentioned. So when it was clear that it wasn't going to come up without prompting, I asked again if he had one. No. Why? Because he's never needed it: he's had it for 17 years and knows that he's never scraped the bank and that he's always used the best paint for blacking (two pack). Could I get a survey done? Initial answer: if I pay for it. Since this wasn't as off-putting as he'd expected, this soon turned to: I don't want to take it all the way to Tarleton and get it out of the water, because it's due for blacking again and that would need doing. Then with the issue of a survey still hanging there, the price started to drop: he could do £32 for me if I was interested and gave him a deposit now. But that would mean no fussing about with an unnecessary survey. I asked him to confirm that he wouldn't have a survey done and he said yes. So I turned around and put my boots back on. The price went back up to £34 while I was putting on my boots, if I insisted on a survey. Would he agree to any repairs that might be necessary as found by a survey? Yes, but he knows it won't need any. Then: he would go halves with me in principle (if say it needed '£1000 of welding', he'd pay £500), although he knows it won't need anything doing at all.

 

Once I was back on the bank a final offer of £31 came out, which was probably conditional on having no survey, though by that point the alarm bells were ringing quite loudly so I made my excuses and slipped away.

 

Allan is quite a full-on character and it was only when I got away with my own thoughts that it struck me as odd that I'd got into negotiations over a survey when I didn't even know if I liked the boat. After some reflection I decided I just didn't like it enough as it was and there was too much slipperiness in answering questions for me to feel comfortable dealing with him anyway. But then I had a call this afternoon. Allan said he'd been thinking about the survey and could I call him back to discuss it. I said I was a little busy right then and left it there.

 

Anyway, this turned into much more of a ramble about my viewing experience than intended. I wonder what folk think of this though. Do folk think I'm probably right to have lost all interest, or perhaps is there a good deal to be had here, since the owner clearly wants to sell up and emigrate. He told me it's getting too expensive to fly back and forth to Thailand, mentioned how eager he is to get out there permanently, and called me a few times on Thurs morning before I was able to answer and arrange the viewing. I get the impression I'm the only one who's been to see it so far.

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I would suggest you have been rather sensible walking away. Had he come back to you with an offer in the 20's complete with a survey with remedial work it might have been worth a second look.

The alarm bells started ringing when I read the advert, talk about vague!

If he's that keen to move to Thailand then he should be prepared to accept a reasonable offer for the boat.

My feeling would be £29,000 with a full survey and remedial work, £20,000 without either - but then I'm no expert, I just know what I'd be prepared to pay.

Come the spring it'll be a sellers market, now it's winter and the buyer holds the cards.

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First of all you have to want 'this' boat, and that just doesn't seem to be the case. We came across all sorts of scenarios but until we found 'the' boat, just walked away and used them all as learning experiences.

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It's up to the buyer to get (and pay for) a survey, not the seller.

 

Dave

 

Of course. That was never in question in this situation, though I might not have made it clear enough. When I first raised the issue of me getting a survey, he said 'If you pay for it!' in a tone that suggested he expected that would make me drop the idea altogether. I replied 'Of course' and then the more considered answer was that he didn't want to get a survey done at all. When the price went back up to £34k, that was for me to arrange and pay for a survey in addition -- another tactic for getting me to drop the idea.

 

I don't think I made it clear in the original post that this is his only home, so there may well be logistical issues to taking her out of the water for a survey, and that might be a reason for his hesitancy.

 

 

First of all you have to want 'this' boat, and that just doesn't seem to be the case. We came across all sorts of scenarios but until we found 'the' boat, just walked away and used them all as learning experiences.

I think you're right. I had that sort of feeling with another boat I posted about on here, then decided it wasn't practical as a liveaboard. There is another local that hasn't been advertised anywhere yet and will be a real cracker once it's restored (ongoing dispute over a botched paint job that's being redone in January) by its precision engineer owner, and which I did feel good about when I went to see.

 

I would suggest you have been rather sensible walking away. Had he come back to you with an offer in the 20's complete with a survey with remedial work it might have been worth a second look.

The alarm bells started ringing when I read the advert, talk about vague!

If he's that keen to move to Thailand then he should be prepared to accept a reasonable offer for the boat.

My feeling would be £29,000 with a full survey and remedial work, £20,000 without either - but then I'm no expert, I just know what I'd be prepared to pay.

Come the spring it'll be a sellers market, now it's winter and the buyer holds the cards.

Thank Mike, good to get somebody else's idea of value.

 

Don't like the sound of that either. It looks overpriced anyway, but what do I know!

Thanks. I think I'm inclined to let it go.

Edited by AftApeth
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I take a slightly different view to others, actually it sounds to me as though it's s decent enough boat but the guy hasn't got a clue how to sell it - though he thinks he has. It's like when you see adverts full of estate agent speak.

 

If the boat has been epoxy coated it could very well be good as new underneath and all the other flaws are fixable, it's also quite an attractive boat.

 

But it's your call. If it was me I'd say to the guy not a penny over £28,000 subject to survey and anything that the survey reveals the owner must pay for.

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I don't think I made it clear in the original post that this is his only home, so there may well be logistical issues to taking her out of the water for a survey, and that might be a reason for his hesitancy.

 

 

He could have thought of that before putting her on sale. As he seems to spend a lot of time on international travel, surely he could arrange one of his trips to coincide with the survey. Alternately, if he has the funds to travel so frequently, then surely he's got the funds to stay in a hotel for a couple of nights while the survey is done.

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When you buy a boat privately you not only buy the boat, you buy the previous owner too.

 

He or she will loom large in your consciousness for months or years after you take ownership. All the insignificant little details about the boat, what the pots and pans left in the cupboard are like, the light switch that has obviously remained broken for years, the jamming wardrobe door etc etc will all remind you of the previous owner almost for ever.

 

The boat will have had the benefit of his attitudes and approach to life the whole time he owned it. If you don't like the bloke selling it, you probably won't much like his attitudes to maintenance either. Bear this in mind.

 

The supposed 'diesel generator' which sounds nothing of the sort to me from your description is a good illustration.

 

MtB

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Liverpool boats sold plenty of sail-always to be fitted out by other businesses or private owners. The fit-out on this one looks pretty basic to me, maybe an owner fit-out? Nothing wrong with owner fit outs necessarily but in terms of value, normally worth less than a professional fit out (although of course, depending on how well it's done).

 

If you only want 1 bedroom, why buy a boat with 2 bedrooms and a correspondingly small living area? Yes you could change the use of one bedroom into an office etc but personally I would prefer to have the living space in one area to give a feeling of space.

 

Finally just to mention in case you don't realise, there is not a separate generator, just an additional alternator on the engine feeding a magic box that produces 240v. It is slightly disingenuous to describe it as a diesel generator when the diesel bit is the main engine.

 

Personally I think you could find a better boat for the money, and one without a cranky owner!

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When you buy a boat privately you not only buy the boat, you buy the previous owner too.

 

He or she will loom large in your consciousness for months or years after you take ownership. All the insignificant little details about the boat, what the pots and pans left in the cupboard are like, the light switch that has obviously remained broken for years, the jamming wardrobe door etc etc will all remind you of the previous owner almost for ever.

 

The boat will have had the benefit of his attitudes and approach to life the whole time he owned it. If you don't like the bloke selling it, you probably won't much like his attitudes to maintenance either. Bear this in mind.

 

The supposed 'diesel generator' which sounds nothing of the sort to me from your description is a good illustration.

 

MtB

 

Thanks MtB. I think you've very much read my thoughts on this. I did get a bad vibe from being on the boat, but thought this was perhaps silly and I'd get over it. But those little details do make a difference. The other boat I mentioned that isn't advertised anywhere yet had very much the opposite feeling. The guy who's owned it from new has led a very interesting life. He's 78 and still keeping very busy with a sideline business engineering fly vices, helping design braking systems for Aprilia motorbikes, building model boats and playing in a ukulele band. Anyway, he turned up in his neat overalls and gave me a full tour, pointing out all the little touches he's added for living aboard. Until a few years ago he went away for six months each year cruising all over the system (so I imagine a few people on here probably know him), so he's had a separate generator built in alongside the engine, installed washing machine, dryer, pumpout toilet, and has a self pumpout kit for when needed. Had bow thrusters installed when built. There's lots of clever storage space everywhere, in drawers under the step down to the cabin, drawers that pull out from under the fridge and above the kitchen cupboards. Bathroom and kitchen are immaculately tiled. But I got talking to the guy for a long time and ended up going round to his bungalow for tea and a ukulele jam. I'm still looking since this one needs a major refit in the saloon after a paint job gone wrong and badly replaced windows that have leaked water in. It's going to be stripped out and redone when it's in dry dock. But yes, seeing the boat with that owner filled me with confidence that no expense has been spared on anything and that I'd probably come to appreciate all the little touches when I moved aboard.

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Liverpool boats sold plenty of sail-always to be fitted out by other businesses or private owners. The fit-out on this one looks pretty basic to me, maybe an owner fit-out? Nothing wrong with owner fit outs necessarily but in terms of value, normally worth less than a professional fit out (although of course, depending on how well it's done).

 

If you only want 1 bedroom, why buy a boat with 2 bedrooms and a correspondingly small living area? Yes you could change the use of one bedroom into an office etc but personally I would prefer to have the living space in one area to give a feeling of space.

 

Finally just to mention in case you don't realise, there is not a separate generator, just an additional alternator on the engine feeding a magic box that produces 240v. It is slightly disingenuous to describe it as a diesel generator when the diesel bit is the main engine.

 

Personally I think you could find a better boat for the money, and one without a cranky owner!

 

I like the idea of separating living space from office space. One thing I liked about the saloon area on this one was that there was no fixed furniture. I measured from the edge of the kitchen to the cupboards at the front of the boat (what would be the empty saloon once the wicker chairs were taken out) and it was a good 13 foot.

 

It did feel a bit basic, that's probably the best word. It wasn't so clear from the photos, but once I got on board that was the impression from looking at the faded woodstain and worn edging.

 

I have to admit I haven't quite got my head around the setup he had, but there was definitely a separate motor sitting in a crate on top of the box where the boat engine is. I took this thing on top to be the generator. I think you have to move this out of the way to lift up the hatch and get to the engine proper.

 

I hope I can find a better one for the money. This seems about par for the course for that age and size.

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I take a slightly different view to others, actually it sounds to me as though it's s decent enough boat but the guy hasn't got a clue how to sell it - though he thinks he has. It's like when you see adverts full of estate agent speak.

 

If the boat has been epoxy coated it could very well be good as new underneath and all the other flaws are fixable, it's also quite an attractive boat.

 

But it's your call. If it was me I'd say to the guy not a penny over £28,000 subject to survey and anything that the survey reveals the owner must pay for.

 

The funny thing is, he says he used to sell boats! I don't know how much of the AD ad is due to his bad instructions, or his mate's ability to take notes. Knowing he was an ex used boat salesman probably coloured my experience of the viewing. I thought he probably knew all the tricks. Calling BSS certificates 'MOTs' to make it sound as though the boat had been regularly assessed for soundness and canal-worthiness was a good one. As I understand it, the BSS certificate just shows that you aren't likely to gas yourself or set yourself on fire?

 

The paint job was very shiny and impressive, which was one of the first things that drew me in on the ad. As far as I could feel there was no pitting anywhere. At this point, I'm thinking it may be a good boat for somebody else.

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