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What the 'King is This All About?


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As you probably know by now, after a few topics started by me recently, I'm currently engaged in a self build. Now there's lots of rules & regs to follow & they nearly all make sense, but this piece of "advice" (or rule, as it was put to me), really does take the biscuit.

 

Apparently, you should not position a 240v socket anywhere where you can touch it, or an appliance plugged into it, with wet hands whilst standing at a sink or in a shower. As a demonstration, the guy offering this "advice", touched the washing machine socket (240v circuits incomplete) & grabbed the side of the shower stall diagonally opposite, whilst glibly forgetting that with the machine installed, anyone would have to be unnaturally flexible in order to touch it & the shower stall!

 

Well forgive me, but I'm of an age where common sense ruled & electrics really could kill the unwary in the old days before the advent of RCD technology. Besides, how can most of the new boat reviews in mags show sockets near the sink in the galley if this is accurate?

 

Complete BS or what?

Edited by BargeeSpud
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Have a look at ISO13297 which is the RCD standard for ac electrics. There is no reason against having sockets in a toilet or other wet area, although I do note a requirement to have a 10mA RCD device for such sockets, something I hadn't noticed before (normal domestic is 30mA).

 

As said, the guy complaining is getting confused with house regulations.

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Have a look at ISO13297 which is the RCD standard for ac electrics. There is no reason against having sockets in a toilet or other wet area, although I do note a requirement to have a 10mA RCD device for such sockets, something I hadn't noticed before (normal domestic is 30mA).

 

As said, the guy complaining is getting confused with house regulations.

 

 

Seconded. You have a domestic house electrician here, applying house regs. Ask him to cite the regulation that requires what he describes. You can then point out it doesn't apply to boats, And you are asking him to install to RCD, not 19th Edition house regs.

 

MtB

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A long time ago when I was an apprentice I accompanied the boss on a job at the vicarage where the vicars wife had received an electric shock. When we arrived the Vicar started to describe what happened, he stopped mid sentence and said to his wife "why don't you show Mr. XXXX what happened" With that, and before we could say anything she picked up the plugged in but switched off kettle with one hand and got hold of the cold tap with the other before dancing and singing round the kitchen


I can touch a 240 socket with one hand in the sink. I know this because I just tried. biggrin.png

Your expert is out of his depth.

I think you will find that true in most kitchens let alone on boats.

  • Greenie 1
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A long time ago when I was an apprentice I accompanied the boss on a job at the vicarage where the vicars wife had received an electric shock. When we arrived the Vicar started to describe what happened, he stopped mid sentence and said to his wife "why don't you show Mr. XXXX what happened" With that, and before we could say anything she picked up the plugged in but switched off kettle with one hand and got hold of the cold tap with the other before dancing and singing round the kitchen

I think you will find that true in most kitchens let alone on boats.

Well that made me laugh!

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A long time ago when I was an apprentice I accompanied the boss on a job at the vicarage where the vicars wife had received an electric shock. When we arrived the Vicar started to describe what happened, he stopped mid sentence and said to his wife "why don't you show Mr. XXXX what happened" With that, and before we could say anything she picked up the plugged in but switched off kettle with one hand and got hold of the cold tap with the other before dancing and singing round the kitchen

 

Who says god doesn't have a sense of humor?

 

I used to do a lot of installing new service panel and drops on houses that were being completely remodeled. If there was some other tradesman working nearby me when I was working on the panel I would sometimes grab one of the bus bars (there was no power to the box, I'd cut the incoming PowCo lines myself) start making a buzzing sound, start shaking all over, then slowly reach my outstretched and quivering arm towards the other person. It was so funny to see the look on their faces as they were sure I was about to die. What was even funnier is how many were completely frozen in their tracks and didn't back away, even though they thought I was going to touch them and electrocute them too.

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I think the reason for the sinks/taps and 240 v electrics rule is that the copper pipe gives a brilliant earth and if you touch a live conductor and an earth and anything goes wrong with the circuit breaker you are very, very live, or probably very, very dead.

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Have a look at ISO13297 which is the RCD standard for ac electrics. There is no reason against having sockets in a toilet or other wet area, although I do note a requirement to have a 10mA RCD device for such sockets, something I hadn't noticed before (normal domestic is 30mA).

 

As said, the guy complaining is getting confused with house regulations.

 

Having just read that ISO Nick, I see that outlets also have to be enclosed in IP55 housings when not in use

 

"13.2 Receptacles/sockets installed in locations subject to rain, spray or splashing shall be able to be enclosed in

IP 55 enclosures, in accordance with IEC 60529, as a minimum, when not in use."

 

Your ISO reference for the benefit of others reading this is 8.2.b & as a point of interest, you can buy 2 gang 10Ma sockets from electrical factors like CEF, so that's an option for the washing machine socket if I seriously want to fully comply.

Edited by BargeeSpud
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Just like to point out that ISO 13297 has undergone one or two updates in recent years! Even the old 2001 version did not REQUIRE you to use 10mA RCDs. If you read it carefully, it requires either 30mA protection on main circuits or 10mA protection on branch ccts in places like galleys or bathrooms (ref 8.2a and 8.2b in that version).

 

The ISO was reissued in 2013 and I believe that version removed the 10mA option. In checking the current status of the ISO just now via my splendid library link to BSOL I was surprised to see that they are in the process of issuing yet another new version!

 

This one has a very much simpler section on RCDs and only requires 30mA 100mS performance on all main "AC Sources" (ie Shore line, generator, inverter etc). The 10mA RCD is also missing in this version. I seem to remember it was included originally because they tend to be used in the USA on their lower voltage outlets and the words got carried across.

 

(I'll have to read through the whole of the new version sometime - let's hope it's a bit better than the 2013 version, especially the diagrams which seemed to be a poor plagiarising of USA stuff).

 

Richard

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Just like to point out that ISO 13297 has undergone one or two updates in recent years! Even the old 2001 version did not REQUIRE you to use 10mA RCDs. If you read it carefully, it requires either 30mA protection on main circuits or 10mA protection on branch ccts in places like galleys or bathrooms (ref 8.2a and 8.2b in that version).

 

The ISO was reissued in 2013 and I believe that version removed the 10mA option. In checking the current status of the ISO just now via my splendid library link to BSOL I was surprised to see that they are in the process of issuing yet another new version!

 

This one has a very much simpler section on RCDs and only requires 30mA 100mS performance on all main "AC Sources" (ie Shore line, generator, inverter etc). The 10mA RCD is also missing in this version. I seem to remember it was included originally because they tend to be used in the USA on their lower voltage outlets and the words got carried across.

 

(I'll have to read through the whole of the new version sometime - let's hope it's a bit better than the 2013 version, especially the diagrams which seemed to be a poor plagiarising of USA stuff).

 

Richard

 

Don't suppose you know of a link to download a free pdf?

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Don't suppose you know of a link to download a free pdf?

 

I'm afraid not!

 

As with all British and International Standards the organisations concerned defend their intellectual property with great gusto.

 

The only reason the old version from 2000 which you quoted can be found for free is because it was withdrawn a long time ago and should no longer be worked to. Even so, the website that has made it available for free is bravely flouting copyright law!

 

I'm not defending the fact that these documents are only able to be read by buying them for significant amounts of money. It's just how things work unfortunately. You could of course argue that BS and ISO are private organisations and are simply trying to prevent their expensively produced information from being "stolen"!

 

As someone who is trying to comply with the RCD in my boat build I also have a problem in trying to access the 30 or so ISOs that I need to work to. The other bit of hassle comes when an ISO gets updated, as 13297 recently has - quite a pain when you had only just got your head round the previous version! Just try doing that with ISO 12217 on Stability etc. That has changed several times since I started!

 

All is not lost however and it is possible to view (only, not print) BS and ISOs online but only if you can become a member of a County library service that still has enough money in their budget to be able to pay BSOL the required licence fee. This allows their members free access once they've logged in to the library website. Not all Counties do this, eg Surrey, West Sussex and Hampshire don't. However Cambridgeshire does and there may be others but I haven't researched anywhere else. You could check out where you live perhaps. If your actual County doesn't do it you may still be able to join an adjacent County's library where they do.

 

There may be another way - if you work for an outfit that needs to access standards as part of its operation then perhaps you can use that route to read them. My old set up would probably have allowed me to do this but I'm retired now.

 

Another way, if you have a relative or friend at a Uni, they may be able to access them via the Uni library.

 

Of course you could always buy a copy from BSOL (for around £150 usually)! You could also Google the ISO number and try your luck that there's another brave copyright buster (or thief?!) out there who has put up the new version. At one time there was someone in Poland who had but his website has gone now - I wonder why!!

 

Sorry, no help at all!

 

Richard

Edited by rjasmith
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Not at all Richard, I knew the answer before I asked it & I was only taking a punt. You never know your luck!

 

The thing about all this for me is that I think its a bit rich to charge huge amounts to ordinary people needing information which really should be in the public domain in my opinion. "My boat has to comply with ISO 1234567, how can I find out what I need to do in order to comply?" "Pay me megabucks & I'll tell you." Doesn't seem right really.

 

Thanks for the library tip though, I'll check that one out.

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Not at all Richard, I knew the answer before I asked it & I was only taking a punt. You never know your luck!

 

The thing about all this for me is that I think its a bit rich to charge huge amounts to ordinary people needing information which really should be in the public domain in my opinion. "My boat has to comply with ISO 1234567, how can I find out what I need to do in order to comply?" "Pay me megabucks & I'll tell you." Doesn't seem right really.

 

Thanks for the library tip though, I'll check that one out.

 

Yes, annoying isn't it!

 

The trouble is, the whole process of standards writing is based around support for commercial industries.

 

In our case this means big EU commercial boatbuilders like Jeanneau or Beneteau or say New Boat Co on UK canals perhaps. For them, the membership of organisations like BMF where they can get access to the standards for a few £1000s a year is mere peanuts compared with their boat sales annual turnover.

 

The whole concept of the Recreational Craft Directive is to protect European commercial boatbuilders from unfair traders in boats from outside the EU but unfortunately us private builders of one boat are encouraged to work to it too.

 

I suppose there are financial benefits even for us at the end of the day (eg better resale value if we keep to the RCD rather than ignore it and use the "five year rule") so maybe we shouldn't complain too much!

 

I forgot to add to my earlier post that you can also use the RYA's "RCDweb" service to access all the RCD stds at a discounted rate (still several £100 though!) or use a consultancy like "CE Craft" for a similar amount.

 

Good luck with the search for a suitable County Library and please let us know on here if you find one that works where you are!

 

Actually just noticed you're in Hemel Hempstead. As it's in Hertfordshire which adjoins Cambridgeshire to the North East, that should enable you to become a library member in Cambridgeshire. If Hertfordshire don't subscribe to BSOL themselves, get straight on to Cambridgeshire and become a member there. Then you're away!!

 

Once you're in, you'll be able to access any BS or ISO, not just the boat ones. You might find it useful to have a read of the famous BS 8511 on installing stoves in boats perhaps!

 

Richard

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