Does this seem fairly priced? 1974 46ft £27500

[jollymoggy]

Looks like a decent boat. I paid £30k for a 45ft built in 2003. I'd imagine this one is worth around 20-25k.

[SueH]

Can we rename the forum "boatreviewworld.net" ?

 

Quite a lot of it lately.

 

While we're at it what do people think of these boats http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/

 

just quickly

How to put off a new member in one easy step

[Texasboater]

Looking at all the Listings at Harford I think all the narrowboats are overpriced. They do have the rep of being the G&T brigade. I moored there for ten years in the 70's. Great place...very expensive. Mooring fees of 230 quid / mt !!

[magnetman]

How to put off a new member in one easy step

 

Thanks for that SueH

 

:off topic:

 

I have given you a green award because I believe you have raised a good point and this is how a forum should work

I did feel a bit bad about it afterwards, it was misplaced however the original poster in question did continue to post and the thread has continued to over 50 posts and I get the feeling they will be coming back with more questions.

 

I see that this sort of thing can put off new members so I will try to curb myself on that. I saw it as funny but its probably just annoying.

 

thanks. I mean it

 

anyway back on topic

 

Peter-Bullfinch,

 

Do you get any trouble with the Sabb gearbox? The one I had (Sabb cone type) had a tendency to slip out of gear when going forward. This may have been due to a new propshaft that I fitted. The shaft moves in and out on these types and if it was a bit tight in the stern tube then the drag of the propeller could pull it backwards as the boat goes forwards and this has the effect of disengaging the cone clutch.

 

just a thought

[David Mack]

The shaft moves in and out on these types and if it was a bit tight in the stern tube then the drag of the propeller could pull it backwards as the boat goes forwards and this has the effect of disengaging the cone clutch.

Surely the entire prop thrust (the force which pushes the boat forwards) is taken on the gearbox so should hold the clutch IN engagement.

[Peter-Bullfinch]

Our Sabb 2g has been married to a Borg Warner Velvet Drive and so I'm afraid I've no experience of the Sabb gearbox. PB Mechanical in Adlington near Chorley look after old engines and have helped me with advice and expertise over the years. Adam races motorbikes so we always have lots to natter about!

[MtB]

Thanks for that SueH

 

:off topic:

 

I have given you a green award because I believe you have raised a good point and this is how a forum should work

I did feel a bit bad about it afterwards, it was misplaced however the original poster in question did continue to post and the thread has continued to over 50 posts and I get the feeling they will be coming back with more questions.

 

I see that this sort of thing can put off new members so I will try to curb myself on that. I saw it as funny but its probably just annoying.

 

thanks. I mean it

Me too. It never occurred to me when I replied that it might be off-putting to a new member. I too saw it just as humour but you are right. A first class way to put off a new member. And neither of us broke the Posting Guidelines in any way AFAICS!!

 

So like MM, I'm pleased to see AftApeth still posts.

 

 

MtB

[magnetman]

Surely the entire prop thrust (the force which pushes the boat forwards) is taken on the gearbox so should hold the clutch IN engagement.

 

Thats what I would have thought but it did need holding into gear. I'm pretty sure its a common thing but it could be to do with a worn cone. Gardners have cone clutches sometimes and Kelvins - I seem to remember someone with a Kelvin J2 who had a lockable gear control linkage so it could be held engaged as it tended to slip out.

 

maybe its just an adjustment ?

[magnetman]

or it may have been because in my installation I had a short cardan shaft (drive shaft with universal joints at both ends) to take up a couple of inches because the engine beds were too high. This might have messed with the sliding of the propshaft.

[David Mack]

or it may have been because in my installation I had a short cardan shaft (drive shaft with universal joints at both ends) to take up a couple of inches because the engine beds were too high. This might have messed with the sliding of the propshaft.

Do you have a separate thrust bearing at the inboard end of the propshaft? AAUI these gearboxes are meant to take the prop thrust, otherwise you will get the problems you refer to.

[magnetman]

I don't have the boat any more but I had about 2ft tail shaft then an 18 inch cardan shaft to take in a height difference of about 2 inches between engine output and tailshaft. Bit of an odd way to do it but the engine beds were high due to previous engine having had a triple belt reduction drive

No thrust bearing, straight into the gearbox but the cardan shaft may well have been the problem. I think the Kelvin I heard of had a long cardan shaft as well. It was a fixed one not a sliding vehicle type.

It seems a bit off topic but apparently the boat mentioned in the original post has had works to the propshaft and it has a cone clutch, so there may be potential or previous problems

[SueH]

Thanks for that SueH

 

:off topic:

 

I have given you a green award because I believe you have raised a good point and this is how a forum should work

I did feel a bit bad about it afterwards, it was misplaced however the original poster in question did continue to post and the thread has continued to over 50 posts and I get the feeling they will be coming back with more questions.

 

I see that this sort of thing can put off new members so I will try to curb myself on that. I saw it as funny but its probably just annoying.

 

thanks. I mean it

 

Thank you and Mike the Boilerman for acknowledging this and I now understand that no offence was intended.

[AftApeth]

So I've had a reply from the seller about a few things. He's having trouble with his scanner so a copy of the hull survey will be in the post to me soon. Meanwhile here is his reply to my other questions (which I asked based on help in this thread):

 

I was at the boat yesterday to drain the water down and light the great little stove to dry everything Took photos of cratch so will attach. Brought back the hull survey and will try and attach but have never attavhed by scanning before so may not suceed. However to answer your questions there has never been any plating needed on the hull . It was originally 8mm bottom plate and 6mm hullsides not 6mm and 5mm as many craft and test showed average thickness readings of 5.7 and a minimum of 4.8.respectively I was not aware of the possible conversion to single lever control and have always enjoyed the chunky possitive gear lever and never found the separate throttle control a problem so it didn't cross my mind to enquire about a conversion. Being on a river as opposed to the canals, narrowboats are a small percentage and there are few if any specialist , but I did find a very experienced diesel specialist to guide me through stripping and rebuilding the Sabb engine. He was able to check the bores with a 3 pronged micrometer which showed the maximum wear to be 3tenths of a thousands of an inch . 0003 Hence I only replaced the rings,a re-bore not required.. The electrics have been partly rewired and the charging changed from dynamo to alternater. Will now try to scan and attach hull survey if no joy then if you e mail me your address I will gladly post you a copy.

I have an immediate question here, and would be grateful for advice. Is it normal for a boat to need drying out like this? He makes it sound matter-of-fact, but in my inexperience this rang alarm bells. Also any thoughts on these thickness readings would be appreciated.

 

Steve

[Southern Star]

 

I have an immediate question here, and would be grateful for advice. Is it normal for a boat to need drying out like this? He makes it sound matter-of-fact, but in my inexperience this rang alarm bells.

 

Won't offer comment on any other aspect of the matter, but when he says "drain the water down", he's referring to emptying the tank which holds drinking water etc, and yes, that is completely normal practice when sub-zero temperatures are predicted.

 

Also, when he refers to lighting the stove to dry things out, any boat which has been left for even a few days at this time of year will be very damp inside.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Southern Star

[magnetman]

 

Also, when he refers to lighting the stove to dry things out, any boat which has been left for even a few days at this time of year will be very damp inside.

Not really. We can go away from the boat midwinter for a week with no heating on and its dry when we get back. Ok so its 'clammy' but if it was actually damp then there is water under floor I'd say.

Of course lighting the fire will 'dry it out' in the sense of remove the clammyness (?) But actual damp is a problem in my view - try to view a boat where the fire has NOT been lit a bit like viewing a car with the engine cold on arrival.

 

An amateur engine rebuild is ringing alarm bells for me even if 'guided' by an experienced engineer. Sabb is a norwegian fishing boat engine so no real need for a narrow boat specialist...

[saltysplash]

I have an immediate question here, and would be grateful for advice. Is it normal for a boat to need drying out like this? He makes it sound matter-of-fact, but in my inexperience this rang alarm bells. Also any thoughts on these thickness readings would be appreciated.

 

Steve

 

It was very common on boats built during the 70's to have a wet 'through bilge' meaning, any water that got into the well deck would drain down into the bilge and flow through the boat back to the stern where you would then pump it dry.

 

Harborough Hulls were like this.

 

Some boats were fitted with a sump in the well deck with a bilge pump which negated the need for a through bilge.

 

Modern boats tend to have a raised well deck above the water line with vents to allow the water top drain directly overboard.

[Athy]

Sabb is a norwegian fishing boat engine so no real need for a narrow boat specialist...

Perhaps Norwegian fishing boat specialists are in short supply in Apperley Bridge.

[magnetman]

yes fair point sir

 

It was very common on boats built during the 70's to have a wet 'through bilge' meaning, any water that got into the well deck would drain down into the bilge and flow through the boat back to the stern where you would then pump it dry.

 

Harborough Hulls were like this.

 

Some boats were fitted with a sump in the well deck with a bilge pump which negated the need for a through bilge.

 

Modern boats tend to have a raised well deck above the water line with vents to allow the water top drain directly overboard.

 

Thats a good point, but didn't they have pipes along under the floor or was the bilge actually directly open to the well deck? It seems a very dodgy design to just have an open bilge but I've not actually seen under the floor of a harborough marine boat so you may well be right and anyway long pipes like that would foul up in a few days so maybe they got disconnected.

A bit difficult to tell, not sure I can see front deck drains so Saltysplash may well be right about the boat in question

 

http://www.apolloduck.com/image.phtml?id=380367ℑ=2

[Neil2]

The boat might well have a wet bilge. I think it was only Hancock and Lane that had the piped arrangement, Harborough boats, I think, just had a quite deep bilge and water ran straight through, the ballast was suspended wasn't it?

 

There may be others on here who have had such boats who could better comment on whether such a boat would feel damp after a lay up. I would be worried if our boat needed "drying out" just because we hadn't been aboard for a while.

 

At least the seller is being honest.

 

 

[magnetman]

The front doors look quite high up which to me indicates a self draining well deck but the holes aren't visible. I'd have thought if you were going to have a straight through bilge an advantage would be full, or at least nearly full, "floor to ceiling" doors, which the boat doesn't seem to have.

on second thoughts, they are quite tall doors and the bottom of them does sort of look to be too near the waterline so I am going to go with wet bilge on this boat.

 

http://www.apolloduck.com/image.phtml?id=380367ℑ=3

Edited November 26, 2014 by magnetman

[Neil2]

The front doors look quite high up which to me indicates a self draining well deck but the holes aren't visible. I'd have thought if you were going to have a straight through bilge an advantage would be full, or at least nearly full, "floor to ceiling" doors, which the boat doesn't seem to have.

on second thoughts, they are quite tall doors and the bottom of them does sort of look to be too near the waterline so I am going to go with wet bilge on this boat.

 

http://www.apolloduck.com/image.phtml?id=380367ℑ=3

I'd go along with that though it is frustrating when you only have a handful of photos to go by.

 

The only wet bilge boats I've come across that had literally "level access" from the cabin to the front well have been H&L boats, they relied on a piped system and IIRC the drain from the well deck was surprisingly small. There's a fair risk of water pooling behind a blocked drain and entering the cabin I would have thought, a low bulkhead does give some protection which seems to be the design of the boat in question.

 

Thinking about it though, even a wet bilge boat is only ever going to have a small amount of water right at the stern, I presume these boats must have automatic bilge pumps, but in any case this particular boat has a cratch cover so there's no surface water entering the cabin bilge anyway. It might be getting in some other way of course.

 

I think you are so much on the back foot if you take a risk on a boat that is wet inside, there's no need for it, it's a sure sign of neglect, and you are almost certainly turning someone else's problem into yours. Unless it is blindingly obvious how the water's getting in.

[AftApeth]

Thanks guys for thoughts on this. Hopefully it's just some sort of clamminess from non-use. I'll ask. There are a load more photos of the boat here: http://www.hartfordmarinesales.co.uk/detail.phtml?id=383904.

 

It sounds like the hull is sound though. Waiting on the full survey to arrive by post.

[Neil2]

Well she is quite an attractive boat which counts for quite a lot in my book.

 

But even if the hull passes muster I would still be concerned about the damp inside, and the engine.

 

There's little or no attempt to keep water out of the engine bilge but that's consistent with it being a wet bilge boat. There are narrowboaters who accept water in the bilge as a fact of life, and there are others, like me, who cannot bear the thought of it. But with this boat you might want to think about a "pram" cover on the back anyway, to increase the usable space, and that would certainly address the surface water issue.

 

You need a substantial contingency fund for a boat like this, which is why it is way overpriced.

[AftApeth]

Thanks Neil, you might be right. I may tentatively see if the seller is willing to come down subtantially in price, and if not move on.

 

The eight-page survey arrived in the post today. There's one page missing, which according to the contents page is a valuation. Fair enough. It's from Oct 2012, not 2013 as I thought. It's probably a bit unfair to the seller to post a jpeg or PDF of it here, but here are some choice bits. Apparently the bottom plate survey was done with the boat held up in slings, and the rest of it on hard standing.

 

Summary

The vessel THE NEXT MOVE is in a satisfactory condition with no structural defects found within the scope of this survey that would affect the vessel's ability to perform its intended use as a leisure craft. The vessel has been reasonably well maintained by the owner, resulting in a hull that is still in a good serviceable condition.

 

The following is a summary of recommendations and suggestions that require attention:

 

1. At the next lift out for maintenance, a new sacrificial edge on the bottom plate should be fabricated and welded in place.
2. Remedial work must be done to resecure the starboard rubbing band and arrest the corrosion.
3. Resecure the anode tangs. I would suggest that the fixture of the anodes is converted to stainless steel studs and nuts to facilitate easy replacement.
4. Grind back the rudder plate leading edge to replace the profile.
5. Install a new stern tube and packing gland.
6. Reduce the length of the propeller shaft by approximately 3 ins.

 

 

The general description gives the builder as:

 

Builder: Bull Engineering

 

and

 

Construction material: Steel plate. Specification of original thickness approximately 8mm bottom plate & swim shelves with 6mm hull up to the gunwale.

 

The bit about thickness readings and hammer sounding on both sides of the hull:

 

HULL below waterline

Port side

My visual inspection of the hull below the waterline on the port side found the plate had evidence of some pitting and corrosion along the waterline, which is now inactive and has been arrested by good hull maintenance. The plate overall is still in a good condition and random ultrasound thickness measurements taken on the hull, at and below the waterline, indicated an average test point thickness of approximately 5.6mm, which should be taken as a maximum thickness. The lowest reading of 5.1mm was taken at the bow waterline. There were no apertures below the waterline.

Starboard side

The condition of the starboard side of the hull was very similar to port side except the waterline scale and pitting was less pronounced. The plate overall is still in a good condition and random ultrasound thickness measurements taken on the hull, at and below the waterline, indicated and average test point thickness of approximately 5.7mm, which should be taken as a maximum thickness. The lowest thickness reading taken was a mark (7) 100mm above the base plate 4.8mm. There were no apertures below the waterline.

 

The hull sides, port & starboard, were hammer sounded, which indicated the hull was in good condition.

 

Then there's a worrying bit:

 

Stern Swim

… However the engine compartment was very dirty with heavy contamination of oil and water. The water, I am advised, has been coming from a leaking stern gland.

 

The seller has written in pen underneath: 'Stern gland replaced, drop shaft shortened. No leaks now. Bilge cleaned when engine out Oct 2013.'

 

Bottom plate

Visual inspection found the plate to have shallow scalloped-shaped and general corrosion, which has been arrested by a good application of bitumastic paint.

Visual inspections of the sacrificial edge of the bottom plate found extensive wear on both sides with the port side nearly back to the welds.

 

There are some details about rubbing bands and anodes, as mentioned in the summary, and it states that the rudder plate leading edge needs grinding back because of corrosion. The seller notes in the margin that the rubbring band, anode, and rudder issues were all fixed in Oct 2013. Apparently nothing has been done about the bottom plate sacrificial edge however.

 

Finally there's more info about the stern gear, which might answer some of the discussion about why the shaft needed shortening:

 

… found the bearing in the stern tube to have considerable wear allowing transverse movement of the propeller shaft. The propeller shaft extends approximately 7 inches from the face of the bearing housing, which is excessive and will induce whip in the shaft that will accelerate wear in the shaft bearing.

The inboard packing gland is small and not of normal configuration, but I believe if the gland nuts were released then new packing could be inserted. However, as a new shaft bearing is required, which will require the dismantling of the stern gear, I would advise that a new tube and packing gland is installed.

 

Sorry for such a long post. Wanted to give the details since I mentioned I was getting the survey sent to me. Perhaps this is of interest to somebody else in my position who's curious to know what one of these surveys looks like.

[Neil2]

The key remark in that document is the one about the engine bilge being full of oil and water because of a leaking stern gland. That isn't consistent with a boat that has been "well maintained" and reinforces concern about the damp inside.

 

Why take out the valuation page..? That's not normal and so you draw your own conclusions.

 

Reinforcing the edge of the baseplate is par for the course for a boat of this age. It's actually a little surprising it hasn't been done before now.

 

Bear in mind that the survey is two years old so things could have deteriorated quite a lot in that time.