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Waterways Accident Enquiry


Alan de Enfield

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Some fifteen years ago we were on the P & O ferry from Cherbourg to Portsmouth, which left the harbour in a high wind. The captain made three abortive attempt to turn the ferry before suceedeing,and managed to hit five other moored ships in the process.

 

No one was injured as a consequence, but a high proportion of the passengers and crew were sick during the very rough passage to Portsmouth. Not a pleasant experience!!

 

Are you quite sure you are not mixing this up with one of the historic boat gatherings at Alvecote? :lol:

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In years gone by some ferries were fitted with bow rudders, and at Dover they turned round just outside entrance when weather permitted. They then were able to go to the berth stern-first, sometimes at quite a speed, but under control.

 

Howard

In the 1980s I worked on a P&O ferry in Dover for a short period when I was a student. It was common practice for the crew to be waiting on the end of the loading ramp as the ship reversed in. One evening (nice calm weather in the summer) the ship was approaching the ramp at much faster than normal speed, to the extent that all the crew ran back up the ramp. The ship rammed the buffers and bounced back. Whilst these ships do this manouvre several times every day they do not always get it right!

 

By the way, the practice is to load stern first in Dover and bow first in France as the lorries etc have no space to turn inside the vessel.

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I have only ever been a passenger coming out of Dover, but I do know that those ferries have lots of bow and Stern thrusters and as the weather wasn't too bad over the weekend (Light South Westerlies reported by Dover Coast Guard) I would say it points towards a mechanical failure however be good to wait to see what the MAIB have to say on the matter!

 

I wouldn't worry about a bit of rust around the windows, that's not a sign of poor maintenance. The ship is working in a salt water environment so would be surprised if there wasn't a bit of rust about. The Passenger Safety standards on those ships is second to none, they will carry extra Officers on board whose sole job is looking after the safety equipment to ensure that the standards are kept. On my ship it is split between the Second Engineer and the Third Mate who co-ordinate that role with their other duties. But then we have much longer at sea and a smaller number of items to look after.

 

...The Navy Lark he he, where is Captain Povey when you need him?

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The trouble with cross channel ferries these days is there excessive windage. They have a relatively shallow draught with massively high and bulky superstructures, out of proportion with their draught which makes them wind rode instead of tide rode. Their stability is provided for by a very wide beam. All this is all very well until there's a major propulsion power failure in which case the ship is blown wherever the prevailing wind fancies, usually aground. Which has happened on more than one occasion.

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On my ship it is split between the Second Engineer and the Third Mate who co-ordinate that role with their other duties. But then we have much longer at sea and a smaller number of items to look after.

 

...The Navy Lark he he, where is Captain Povey when you need him?

 

 

Who gets the out of date barley sugars nowadays? Deck or Engineroom? ninja.gif

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Margaret Thatcher stands for Capitalism and stabbing the workers in the back: 'Pride of Free Enterprise' sinks.

 

Estonia claims its independence from the evil USSR: ship 'Estonia' sinks.

 

"while others likened the incident to the sinking of the Titanic." - hmmm... slight exaggeration methinks. I blame Global Warming for these icebergs in the English Channel.

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Radiomariner, the why is answered thus. " this topic needs input from people who understand seagoing issues. " :)

 

I just selected you and Dharl because of your avatars. There are others out there as well I'm sure but not so obvious to a casual observer. Nothing to worry about.

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Who gets the out of date barley sugars nowadays? Deck or Engineroom? ninja.gif

 

I run a very diplomatic ship (Mrs Dharl might disagree on that point) but make sure that the first trippers get a look in.......after they have cleaned out the Sewage plant or inspected the lower ballast tanks!!

 

 

Radiomariner, the why is answered thus. " this topic needs input from people who understand seagoing issues. " smile.png

 

I just selected you and Dharl because of your avatars. There are others out there as well I'm sure but not so obvious to a casual observer. Nothing to worry about.

 

 

Panic over! :) I know there is a few other Deep Blue guys who are doing a better job of hiding then me!!

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Radiomariner, the why is answered thus. " this topic needs input from people who understand seagoing issues. " smile.png

 

I just selected you and Dharl because of your avatars. There are others out there as well I'm sure but not so obvious to a casual observer. Nothing to worry about.

OK. I do not normally like to comment when the OP starts by hinting at "Bad Driving". There are numerous possible causes for such incidents. Until the enquiry nobody should be pointing fingers. I have no experience of cross channel operations. However I do know that about 18 years ago, quite a large oil tanker (unladen) got into difficulties in Dover harbour bumping into what I suspect may be the same point.

It was unusual for a vessel of that size to enter Dover harbour, it was in aid of some form of public "open day" The results of the enquiry seems to be eluding my memory, possibly because the same vessel was involved in an incident (Engine Room flooding) just a few days later, which was widely reported within the fleet. (How not to clear a blocked sea valve).

 

I have however been in and out of Dover harbour as a passenger about a dozen times, and it strikes me that it is inevitable that this will happen from time to time. I also observed intensive dependence on use of bow thrusters. Too much reliability on these can be a mistake. It just takes a large piece of flotsam to reduce their effect or even bring them to an instant halt.

 

I believe, stand by tugs are always available for the event of any mechanical or human failure, but can they get into the needed position in time?. Sod's Law says 'probably not'.

 

I don't think that a100% safe form of transport exists. (Even using 'shanks pony' I once walked into a lamp-post!

 

I look forward to reading the MAIB report

Edited by Radiomariner
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I seem to remember that the standby tug at Dover was withdrawn by this government in 2011 in the first round of cuts. Whether any private enterprise has managed to come in and get someone to pay them to operate a tug I do not know.

The tug that was withdrawn provided emergency cover for marine emergencies in the Channel under the control of the Coastguard, and was one of 4 around the coast. It was not a harbour tug. I think you will find the Dover Harbour Board have a number of tugs within the port but almost certainly one of those would not have been close enough to be of use in this situation which appears to have developed very quickly.

 

Howard

Edited by howardang
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The whole idea of designing ferries with bow and stern thrusters, azimuth pods etc. is so they don't need tugs. This is simply economics. To put on of our ships in port costs between $70000 & $100000 depending on the number of tugs. Thy don't come free.

 

Dover might have tugs but the best they will have is one on stand by unless they have been ordered by ferry operators or manager.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I seem to remember that the standby tug at Dover was withdrawn by this government in 2011 in the first round of cuts. Whether any private enterprise has managed to come in and get someone to pay them to operate a tug I do not know.

I live near Dover and still regularly see the tug hanging around in the harbour when it it really windy. I think they charge about £1000 to help a ferry berth so I think the ferries only use them as a last resort. Having said that I don't think it was a very windy day when the DFDS ferry hit.

A proper boater does NOT need a bowthruster, stern thruster, side thruster or any other thruster

 

3131stop.gif

A forward thruster mounted at the stern is conventional!

  • Greenie 1
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A proper boater does NOT need a bowthruster, stern thruster, side thruster or any other thruster

 

3131stop.gif

 

That's right, they're not needed, but they're nice to have...

 

But when you say "any other thruster" perhaps you are forgetting that any boat with an engine, gearbox and propeller has a thruster.

 

Also the whole concept of "a proper boater" is a load of nonsense. I know a professional pilot who probably wouldn't consider most inland waterways boaters or liveaboards as proper boaters, so that includes most of us on this forum.... I don't agree with his or your rather limited definitions of what constitutes a proper boater because I find the whole notion silly, and I wish people would stop perpetuating stupid ideas.

Edited by blackrose
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That's right, they're not needed, but they're nice to have...

 

But when you say "any other thruster" perhaps you are forgetting that any boat with an engine, gearbox and propeller has a thruster.

 

Also the whole concept of "a proper boater" is a load of nonsense. I know a professional pilot who probably wouldn't consider most inland waterways boaters or liveaboards as proper boaters, so that includes most of us on this forum.... I don't agree with his or your rather limited definitions of what constitutes a proper boater because I find the whole notion silly, and I wish people would stop perpetuating stupid ideas.

 

 

They only suggest such things to provoke a response and they seem to have succeeded in winding you up a little. best to leave them to stew in their lack of knowledgecheers.gif

 

Howard

Edited by howardang
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Going in and out of a port several times a day week after week year after year, the law of averages say that sooner or later there will be a "crunch". It's the nature of the beast. In this yard if someone ever brags about not having been aground the normal reply is "That's your fault....you should go out more often"

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