Tiling on Bulkheads etc

[Guest]

I did it direct to bare wood but sealing might be a good idea.

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We did bare wood also, but agree with John sealing may be worthwile. Might add here that a couple of trims on our nb over plywood joins have split clean in half this summer (expansion). I used "no nails " originally but have used silicon to stick replacements on. So far so good.

Edited July 12, 2005 by stan hesketh

[John Orentas]

John what does RTV stand for?

Is it not that clear stuff that smells of acitate for sealing bathrooms?

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Hi Richard.

 

I have no idea, I only know that if it is printed with RTV on the tube it always works, if it is not printed, it never works.

 

I used to use the stuff commercially, occasionally the production workers would run out of it and one of them would go out and buy what they thought was the same thing from the local hardware shop, we learnt at some cost it was invariably rubbish.

[Bill]

Hi Richard.

 

I have no idea, I only know that if it is printed with RTV on the tube it always works, if it is not printed, it never works.

 

I used to use the stuff commercially, occasionally the production workers would run out of it and one of them would go out and buy what they thought was the same thing from the local hardware shop, we learnt at some cost it was invariably rubbish.

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I believe it stands for "room temperature vulcanising". i.e. self curing

 

Bill

[Richard Bustens]

Hi all

I have spoken to several manufactures and the one everyone is recomending is.......http://www.arbo.co.uk/dsheets/pdf/Arbomeric%20MP%2020.pdf what do you think?

[Moley]

Well I thought I'd give this thread a stir, rather than starting a new one.

 

There seems to be a wide range of views expressed here, but what's the latest opinion?

 

My side sheeting is exterior grade OSB, but I've used the dreaded MDF for bulkheads (sorry). Our bathroom is going to be fully tiled. I quite like the idea of fixing tiles with Silicone or No-Nails for adhesion and flexibility (my local timber yard is selling a cartridge adhesive called ‘Sticks Like Sh*t’).

 

Is there any reason why I shouldn't paint the walls with Aquaseal bitumen paint (I've already used this to seal cut-but-won't-be-seen edges of worktop), fix tiles with No-Nails or similar, then ‘grout’ with a white silicone or exterior frame sealant? I need to make the bathroom as kid-proof as reasonably possible.

[stuart]

I've had no problem with Tile Adheisive onto WBP ply. Just make sure the walls are solid and dont have any flex in them and you will be fine!

[alan_fincher]

I've had no problem with Tile Adheisive onto WBP ply. Just make sure the walls are solid and dont have any flex in them and you will be fine!

Early days yet, but we have done the same as Stuart.

 

Ordinary ready mixed tile adhesive on to (thick) WBP.

 

So far it looks fine, (and the boat had the the odd "knock" last week...).

 

My advice - DON'T try the special "easy to use" grout from an applicator tube, that comes out a bit like shaving foam. Much harder to use than a conventional grout, and first application shrunk back something horrible. Another grat "improvement" that the world could do without

[Richard Bustens]

I tiled the bathroom walls with Silicon from B&Q 8 tubes for £15 but it took about 20 to do the bathroom and they have stuck like Sh88 to the preverable blanket and it is not half as messy as cement, just put 5 blobs per tile

[Moley]

Stuart and Alan: Sorry guys, but you've both missed the point.

Richard: Thanks.

 

I've not used WBP. My side sheets are OSB (which is exterior grade and would key 'cos it's quite rough) but my bulkheads are MDF (which is interior grade and very smooth)

 

Is there any reason why I shouldn't paint the walls with Aquaseal bitumen paint, fix tiles with No-Nails or similar, then ‘grout’ with a white silicone or exterior frame sealant?

[nichimyo]

In my experience, which is a boat where someone else used no-nails to fix things together, is that it gives up the ghost after a few years and things start to fall off which were fixed using it.

[Richard Bustens]

Just to add a point i did paint the whole surfaces with watered down PVA just to be on the safe side.

[Bones]

fixing tiles with no nails?! Is the no nails flexible?! Having had a bit of bad luck with no nails I am not sure I would recommend it. I have got some other fabulous glue stuff, but rather helpfully can't remember what it is called - and it is HEAPS better. I fixed my tiles with the usual flexible adhesive and did no prep whatsoever on the board (which is fire prrof). The tiles are still up....

[Guest]

In my experience, which is a boat where someone else used no-nails to fix things together, is that it gives up the ghost after a few years and things start to fall off which were fixed using it.

Must admit i used a no nails type product to fix a couple of battens to steel inside the swim. One has come away after nearly two years-glad i screwed all the others. I was surprised at this failure but perhaps i did something wrong? sorry a bit

[alan_fincher]

I agree with those giving a bit of a "thumbs down" on "no nails" type products.

 

It's been used on our boat for various things, (not by us), and doesn't appear to be holding up too well (literally!).

 

I don't know if whoever used it followed instructions, but, based on what I';ve seen, I wouldn't rush to use it.

[Moley]

In my experience ... no-nails ... gives up the ghost after a few years and things start to fall off

 

Having had a bit of bad luck with no nails I am not sure I would recommend it.

 

I used a no nails type product to fix a couple of battens ... One has come away after nearly two years

 

I agree with those giving a bit of a "thumbs down" on "no nails" type products ... doesn't appear to be holding up too well (literally!). ... I wouldn't rush to use it.

 

I can be slow on the uptake some times, but a pattern seems to be emerging here

 

Maybe I won't go that way after all.

 

Ta very much,

Mole.

[ChrisPy]

I believe that most yards stick the timber battens on the inside of the cabin sides using no-nails adhesive. I'm glad I've got polyurethane foam to hold it all together.

 

ref Moley's concern about MDF and OSB, I suggest that anything except the very best marine ply may rot in this situation unless it is thoroughly waterproofed on the faces and edges. You cannot rely on tiling grout to keep out drips of water. Once the water enters the trapped gap it will never evaporate. I have seen the same thing happen in 2 houses (builder's work - had to be put right by DIY in both cases).

[wrigglefingers]

I can only add my agreement to the comments about No-Nails although the B&Q version has served me well given that I know it's likely to fail after a few years.

 

I've got a similar problem with the bulkhead behind the cooker in the galley. The bulkhead is/was varnished oak ply but it's been covered with grease (now scrubbed off) and scorched by the vent from the cooker. The surveyor suggested that it couldn't be tiled as the bulkhead isn't fixed at the roof level and even if it was the ply is thin (12-15 mm from memory) and flexes. He thought covering it with aluminium sheet would be best but I'm not convinced I like that idea very much.

 

Would it be better to replace the bulkhead completely and tile or does any body else have a better idea? It's not a disaster area but does look a bit unsightly and not very clean or serviceable. My bed is fixed to the other side of the bulkhead, so dismantling it would be a major headache.

 

Thanks, Jill

[alan_fincher]

I can only add my agreement to the comments about No-Nails although the B&Q version has served me well given that I know it's likely to fail after a few years.

 

I've got a similar problem with the bulkhead behind the cooker in the galley. The bulkhead is/was varnished oak ply but it's been covered with grease (now scrubbed off) and scorched by the vent from the cooker. The surveyor suggested that it couldn't be tiled as the bulkhead isn't fixed at the roof level and even if it was the ply is thin (12-15 mm from memory) and flexes. He thought covering it with aluminium sheet would be best but I'm not convinced I like that idea very much.

 

Would it be better to replace the bulkhead completely and tile or does any body else have a better idea? It's not a disaster area but does look a bit unsightly and not very clean or serviceable. My bed is fixed to the other side of the bulkhead, so dismantling it would be a major headache.

 

Thanks, Jill

We have firmed up otherwise insufficient bulkheads by leaving them in place, but doubling their thickness by securely glueing over a second sheet of ply. (In our case 9mm becoming 18mm).

 

Of course this only works in some locations, and you would need to attack any varnished / painted / etc surfaces you need to stick to with a power sander to get back to wood to form a good bond, (... but you don't have to do a neat job of course, as you are about to cover it over for ever !....)

 

It's not a completely pretty solution , but bulkheads not tied into the ceiling can be stabilised by putting some kind of batten along the join, and screwing to both surfaces. Or you might be able to put something like hardwood quadrant on each side, fixed in to the ceiling, thus trapping the bulkhead panel in the middle.

 

Alan

[ChrisPy]

It's not a completely pretty solution , but bulkheads not tied into the ceiling can be stabilised by putting some kind of batten along the join, and screwing to both surfaces. Or you might be able to put something like hardwood quadrant on each side, fixed in to the ceiling, thus trapping the bulkhead panel in the middle.

the neatest solution is according to IKEA - hidden dowels fitted into holes in the top edge of the ply panel and then mated into matching holes in the deckhead (ceiling)

 

and of course there is no need to clean off the existing greasy ply. just screw the doubler sheet to it.

[alan_fincher]

the neatest solution is according to IKEA - hidden dowels fitted into holes in the top edge of the ply panel and then mated into matching holes in the deckhead (ceiling)

 

I agree, provided you are installing a new one. But if Jill doesn't want to disturb what's there, there probably wouldn't be enough thickness in any additional panal being laid on to try this, I'd have thought.

 

and of course there is no need to clean off the existing greasy ply. just screw the doubler sheet to it.

 

Yes, if you are going to tile over it all, then having a lot of screw heads before you do isn't going to be a problem, of course.

 

Not quite so straightforward when when you want the "good" side of what you are adding to be the final surface. In our case only the bottom half of the resulting wall was tiled, and the top is in an oak faced ply.

 

So I relied mostly on lots of glue.

 

(Being naturally a skin-flint, I only used the oak stuff on the bit not being tiled, and just WBP where it was going to be covered....)

[wrigglefingers]

Thanks for the ideas chaps, I've had a think about the problem and i think the solution might be this.

 

The big galley unit is fixed along the side, square to the bulkhead and screwed in. It's very solid and well-fitted, one of the few bits of the fitout which is both solid and good, so I'd prefer not fiddle with the fitting at the moment. The remaining width of the bulkhead is taken up by the Vanette at right angles. There is nothing above the height of the cooker, just horrible ply. The cooker is secured to the bulkhead by it's fixing brackets but I think it could be detached and re-fixed relatively easily. On the other side is my berth fitting, also in excellent condition and solid.

 

Plan A (cheapskate route): Fix the bulkhead at roof level as Alan suggested with quadrant, sand back the damaged ply immediately behind and above the cooker, seal and re-tile with the mosaics I found in a box this afternoon. I could add PVA to the tile adhesive which does confer some flexibility to the adhesive. Problem - interim and temporary solution which will fail eventually.

 

Plan B (more involved route): have a piece of 9mm ply cut to shape for the areas behind and above the cooker and one further piece cut to fit above the worktop and cupboard. I might be able to cut this in one at school in the workshop, but won't be there until next week. De-attach the cooker and ease it forward. Screw the new ply and the bulkhead together and cap the raw edge with wooden trim and restrain the bulkhead at the roof with quadrant. Mercifully, the original lining out is so rough it's just raw, straight edge anyway. I could then use the extra thickness to safely anchor some shelving in my berth to the bulkhead thus improving my storage problems at a stroke. Cover the whole mess with tiles as before and hope for the best!

 

Plan C is to give MFI a ring as they are advertising some very plush kitchens at half price and apparently they love a challenge according to our local rag.

 

What d'yer think? Thanks, Jill

Edited April 14, 2006 by wrigglefingers

[Paul Evans]

I would go for Plan B. Fixing the extra layer of board seems to solve a whole range of problems at one go.

 

As for tiling, I have used, successfully, cork tile adhesive in our shower and loo. You need to coat the surface to be tiled with the adhesive and let it dry - overnight - and then apply more adhesive to the back of the tiles as you put them up. Make sure you have plenty of ventilation - it stinks - and skin friendly solvent to get the glue off your fingers. You could try using those disposable plastic gloves but I found them a bit of a pain.

[DHutch]

Yeah, our wheelhouse was partialy fitted using no-more-nails buy a 'profesional' and its all coming apart like mad. Espcailly the bits that got damp when the roof leaked.

 

----

 

Our bath room walls are covered in vinal, not tiles. But there are tiles around the ktichen units which still look fine after 15years of heavy useage. There grouted with normal grout, and i assume there stuck to what i presume is 12mm ply with normal tile adheasive.

 

Thinking out loud, tile adheasive stuck to plasterboard, skimed or not, the groted over the top. seams to work very well in houses where the partition walls are fairly stiff, and bricks yet more so. And im sure you could pull this off on a boat.

- The problems with this seam to be when the walls flex too much, which is quite common.

 

MDF is very smooth, and i would have my doubts about how well tile adhessive would hold. However, Platerboard is also very smmoth, and that works fine.

- Strandboard has a surface that may well provid an excelnt 'keyed' surface. But again, ive never done this, so cant really comment.

 

 

Daniel

[alan_fincher]

Plan B (more involved route): have a piece of 9mm ply cut to shape for the areas behind and above the cooker and one further piece cut to fit above the worktop and cupboard. I might be able to cut this in one at school in the workshop, but won't be there until next week. De-attach the cooker and ease it forward. Screw the new ply and the bulkhead together and cap the raw edge with wooden trim and restrain the bulkhead at the roof with quadrant. Mercifully, the original lining out is so rough it's just raw, straight edge anyway. I could then use the extra thickness to safely anchor some shelving in my berth to the bulkhead thus improving my storage problems at a stroke. Cover the whole mess with tiles as before and hope for the best!

 

What d'yer think? Thanks, Jill

Your plan B sounds highly feasible without disturbing too much, and seems to solve a number of things.

 

It's the one I'd go for, certainly.

 

Picking up Dan's further comments about tiling on various surfaces with standard tile adhesive.....

 

When we tiled over our (doubled-up) ply, we went for coating it first in an oil based wood-primer. It didn't seem the most intuitive thing to do, but was what the instructions for our particular brand of cement said you should. So far it seems fine.

 

Ply is a fairly smooth surface, so if this works on ply, I can't immediately see why it would not on MDF, (provided it's braced and rigid enough).

 

Alan

[Moley]

ref Moley's concern about MDF and OSB, I suggest that anything except the very best marine ply may rot in this situation unless it is thoroughly waterproofed on the faces and edges. You cannot rely on tiling grout to keep out drips of water. Once the water enters the trapped gap it will never evaporate. I have seen the same thing happen in 2 houses (builder's work - had to be put right by DIY in both cases).

Having tiled with conventional adhesives and grouts in our bathroom at home, and subsequently having to remove those tiles when the timber behind had got damp, swollen and cracked all the grouting, to find those timbers very damp and starting to grow mould, I would have to agree.

 

I don't think it quite constuitutes a ‘wet room’, but boat bathroom is now tastefully decorated in black bitumen. While trying to choose tiles yesterday and explaining requirements to suppliers, consensus seemed to be to seal the sheeting as I have done, stick 'em on and possibly even ‘grout’ with silicone, in fact some even seem to favour this method when fixing to timber sheeting in domestic bathrooms.