For those who bought a widebeam - regrets? or still happy?

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

Hmmmm

 

In my mind, it's all about 'Displacement'...

 

If I was in a Rowing Boat full of well protected Donuts given to me as a sample, and went through tho open gates into a lock, then it 'Displaces' it's own weight Back out through the open gates, Let's say 1000kg, (A lot of Donuts). So there would be 1000Kg LESS water in the lock with me in it, than if it was empty.

The same would be the case when my first order arrives by Container ship weighing 100,000 Kg, it would 'Displace' 100,000 Kg of water from the lock, back out through the open gates, Whatever way it's Traveling be it Up or Down at the time,,,Er I think.

[Dalslandia]

So the Master degree in "The importance of water for shipping"

 

the lock is 25 meter X 5 meter, the depts. in the lock is 2 meter, the difference in level from low to high is 2 meter. 25x5x2 = 250 ton

 

the boat displace 50 ton.

 

boat going up; there is 250 m2 of water in the lock, boat goes in and press out 50 ton, so 200 ton of water and 50 ton of boat.

fill the lock, it is 2 meter high 25x5 meter = 250 ton of water to fill it

boat goes out of the lock, 50 ton of water goes in

so we used from the upper canal 300 ton of water. the lower canal have the same level as when the boat was in there.

 

the same boat goes down;

the lock hold 250+250 ton of water

boats goes in 50 ton goes back to the upper canal

empty the lock 25x5 meter x 2 meter, we let 250 ton of water go into the lower canal

so we used 250 ton minus the 50 that vent back to the upper canal when boat did go in so 200 ton, (but we still emptied 250 ton of water)

the boat leave the lock and replace it with 50 ton from lower canal, same level. this also cancel out the boat going up.

 

so we "used" 300 ton going up and 200 going down, from the upper canal. 500/2 = 250 average, the same as if there was no boat

the water that goes in from the upper canal when boat is going into the upper canal is also cancelled with the water going back into the upper canal when going down, so simply as said by many, we fill or empty the same amount of water going up or down, and it doesn't matter if there is a boat in it or not, it is the area times height that matters.

 

we can also see it like this:

we need to see the whole picture.

going up

250 ton in the lock, boat goes in, so 200 ton of water, we fill 250 ton of water going up, now 200+250 then boat goes into the upper canal, 50 ton of water goes in, so we have 200+250+50= 500 ton of water to the bottom of lock

 

going down, 500 ton. boat go in -50 ton goes into the upper canal, so we have 450 ton, we empty 250 ton into the lower canal. we have 200 ton of water in the lock until the boat go into the lower canal and 50 ton of water goes into the lock from the lower canal.

 

So we really have to go to the bottom of the problem filled canal to see the solution.

 

Conclusion is that water is important for shipping.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Dalslandia

[Robbo]

Edit, didn't read it right.

 

To early!

Edited October 23, 2014 by Robbo

[Scholar Gypsy]

So the Master degree in "The importance of water for shipping"

 

the lock is 25 meter X 5 meter, the depts. in the lock is 2 meter, the difference in level from low to high is 2 meter. 25x5x2 = 250 ton

 

the boat displace 50 ton.

 

boat going up; there is 250 m2 of water in the lock, boat goes in and press out 50 ton, so 200 ton of water and 50 ton of boat.

fill the lock, it is 2 meter high 25x5 meter = 250 ton of water to fill it

boat goes out of the lock, 50 ton of water goes in

so we used from the upper canal 300 ton of water. the lower canal have the same level as when the boat was in there.

 

the same boat goes down;

the lock hold 250+250 ton of water

boats goes in 50 ton goes back to the upper canal

empty the lock 25x5 meter x 2 meter, we let 250 ton of water go into the lower canal

so we used 250 ton minus the 50 that vent back to the upper canal when boat did go in so 200 ton

the boat leave the lock and replace it with 50 ton from lower canal, same level. this also cancel out the boat going up.

 

so we "used" 300 ton going up and 200 going down, from the upper canal. 500/2 = 250 average, the same as if there was no boat

 

Exactly so.

Don't forget displacement (transfer of 35 tonnes of water from one point to another) is powered by an external souce (in my case a 2LW).

 

Ah that's a whole new problem - friction effects, the viscosity of water etc ... Moving water past the boat does not change the potential energy of the water, but does require energy to offset friction etc....

[Dalslandia]

Edit, didn't read it right.

 

To early!

I edit it after you tried to read it, please try again. coffee is ready

 

Funny is that after more then 40 years on the canal, I never did the math to find out this, I wonder why?

Edited October 23, 2014 by Dalslandia

[Dalslandia]

 

Exactly so.

 

Ah that's a whole new problem - friction effects, the viscosity of water etc ... Moving water past the boat does not change the potential energy of the water, but does require energy to offset friction etc....

 

We can't use up energy, we can just transform it from one form to an other.

 

to lift the 50 ton boat 2 meter in say 5 minutes, we produced ? HP

 

one hp is in metric form said to lift 75 kg one meter in one sec.

 

50000 / 75 / 300 * 2 = 2500 HP useful? work

[DaveGood]

 

 

A pound holds 900 tons of water and the lock at one end of it holds 100 tons of water.

 

Sail a boat of 35 tons into the lock and now seal it, close the gates.

 

The boat will have pushed (displaced) 35 tons of water back into the pound before the gates were shut.

 

The pound now contains 935 tons of water and the lock sixty five tons.

 

If the boat was ten tons the lock would now hold 90 tons of water and the pound 910 tons, twenty five tons less in the pound.

 

The bigger, heavier boat always leaves more water behind it in the pound it just left, whether going up or down, then the smaller boat.

 

It uses less water per cycle.

 

Either that's true, or Archimedes was a senile old fart who got his sums wrong and no one spotted it.

 

DaveGood

[mark99]

Another way of explaining (in laymans terms) that same water is used to fill lock/empty lock what-ever weighty of boat.

 

 

EMPTY LOCK

 

With no boat in lock, it takes 100 tonnes water to fill lock.

 

 

Going Down

 

Boat weighing 35 tonnes moved into lock and upper gates are closed. Boat is craned out (!) Water drops by "35" tonnes". Remaining 65 tonnes water are let out to empty lock. Boat is craned back in, water rises by "35 tonnes" - this 35 tonnes water rise now needs now to be let out. = 100 tonnes.

 

Going Up

 

35 tonne boat moves in. Lower gates are closed. Boat is craned out. 35 tonnes water needed to fill hole left. A further 65 tonnes water let in - water does not make level - until boat craned back in when water rises by 35 tonnes and makes level.

 

Substitute any weight of boat instead of 35 tonnes. Still need 100 tonnes water.

 

 

 

disclaimer - I know height is not measured in tonnes!

[Dalslandia]

A pound holds 900 tons of water and the lock at one end of it holds 100 tons of water.

 

Sail a boat of 35 tons into the lock and now seal it, close the gates.

 

The boat will have pushed (displaced) 35 tons of water back into the pound before the gates were shut.

 

The pound now contains 935 tons of water and the lock sixty five tons.

 

If the boat was ten tons the lock would now hold 90 tons of water and the pound 910 tons, twenty five tons less in the pound.

 

The bigger, heavier boat always leaves more water behind it in the pound it just left, whether going up or down, then the smaller boat.

 

It uses less water per cycle.

 

Either that's true, or Archimedes was a senile old fart who got his sums wrong and no one spotted it.

 

DaveGood

The water in the pound and the lock is exchanging the water to fill out the displacement of the boat, the level in the pound don't change so same amount of weight total, the only time water is used (if disregard the leaking and spilling) is when the lock is filled and emptied, and for that it doesn't matter if it is a boat in the lock or not, it use the same mount of water.

[DaveGood]

Dalandia,

 

The amount of water in the pound does change if you move a boat out of it into a lock, the level doesn't change but the amount of water in the pound changes because now it holds thirty five tons more of water instead of thirty five tons of boat.

 

DaveGood

[DeanS]

sigh...didn't you all see my post. It explained it all quite clearly. ;-)

[Dalslandia]

Dalandia,

 

The amount of water in the pound does change if you move a boat out of it into a lock, the level doesn't change but the amount of water in the pound changes because now it holds thirty five tons more of water instead of thirty five tons of boat.

 

DaveGood

I know, 35 ton of water or boat is the same, the 35 ton of water from the lock replace the boat weight in the pound, it isn't used! it just temporarily is moved from the lock to the pound, reverse the boat out and you see no change in level. if water was used by the boat passing throe the canal or pound there will be a change in level.

sigh...didn't you all see my post. It explained it all quite clearly. ;-)

Don't spoil the fun Dean :-) we still have some miss believers

[DaveGood]

DeanS,

 

If you could provide an equally clear explanation as to the popularity of TV shows such as

"Location, Location, Location" I'd be most grateful.

 

An hour spent watching a couple decide not to buy a house isn't quality entertainment.

 

DaveGood

[MtB]

I still don't understand why Dave keeps mentioning Archimedes' Principle.

 

Archimedes' Principle tells us is that a vessel experiences bouyancy equal to the weight of the fluid it displaces.

 

Nothing to do with the amount of water 'used' transiting a lock.

 

 

MtB

[DaveGood]

Water gets " used" every time a lock is cycled down from a higher leve?l to a lower.

 

That water is drawn from the upper pound.

 

if I put a thirty five ton boat into a lock going down that holds 100 tons of water. That lock will hold (use, or draw from the upper pound) sixty five tons of water plus the thirty five tons of boat.

 

If put a ten ton boat in, it will draw or use ninety tons of water from the upper pound and a ten ton boat.

 

The heavy boat uses sixty five tons to cycle down, the lighter boat uses ninety tons.

 

The smaller lighter boat uses more water.

 

DaveGood

Edited October 23, 2014 by DaveGood

[Dalslandia]

There is always things we don't understand.

 

but to summarise.

 

we all hear this question of water used in locks in one way or other, so now we know the best arguments.

 

the water used in a lock is the different in height * the average area (top and bottom) or use the height in ton (clever) going up or down, with no boat, small boat or big boat, it is the same.

 

If they don't buy that, use the total volume example I used at the end of my long post, why? because the boat is IN the water and not on top of it, and it get right and easy to demonstrate what's going on.

 

Right?

Edited October 23, 2014 by Dalslandia

[Robbo]

Water gets " used" every time a lock is cycled down from a higher leve?l to a lower.

 

That water is drawn from the upper pound.

 

if I put a thirty five ton boat into a lock going down that holds 100 tons of water. That lock will hold (use, or draw from the upper pound) sixty five tons of water plus the thirty five tons of boat.

 

If put a ten ton boat in, it will draw or use ninety tons of water from the upper pound and a ten ton boat.

 

The smaller lighter boat uses more water.

 

DaveGood

 

 

If a boat travels from sealevel too the top pound through how many locks you want and back down again to sea level, the amount of water lost in the top pound and all the water left in intermidiate the pounds will be the same amount if the boat is 100ton or 10ton. The only time that it would be different, is if the boat lost or gained weight on route that's external from the canal (ie not gaining weight by taking on canal water).

[Scholar Gypsy]

There is always things we don't understand.

 

but to summarise.

 

we all hear this question of water used in locks in one way or other, so now we know the best arguments.

 

the water used in a lock is the different in height * the average area (top and bottom) or use the height in ton (clever) going up or down, with no boat, small boat or big boat, it is the same.

 

If they don't buy that, use the total volume example I used at the end of my long post, why? because the boat is IN the water and not on top of it, and it get right and easy to demonstrate what's going on.

 

Right?

 

There are three questions here, and they have different answers:

 

a) If a boat is in a lock, and is either raised or lowered, how much water is either drawn from the top pound or released to the bottom pound. A = the volume of the lock (width x length x fall) = V. This is independent of the displacement of the boat (D). So I agree with the point above.

 

b ) If a boat goes uphill from the lower pound to the upper pound, with the lock starting empty and finishing empty, how much water moves from the top pound to the lower pound. This is a different question. The answer is V+D

 

c) If a boat goes downhill from the upper pound to the lower pound, with the lock starting empty and finishing empty, how much water moves from the top pound to the lower pound. This again is a different question, with answer V-D.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Scholar Gypsy

[FadeToScarlet]

Now work it out for a lock with side ponds....

[MtB]

Now work it out for a lock with side ponds....

 

 

How many?

 

 

MtB

[kazbluesky]

It was built as a lined sailaway, so according to one p*ss-taking neighbour it was already fitted-out when I bought it and should never have taken me so long to finish. I have to admit he was right - it took me ages... But I was living on it while installing the stove, fitting the kitchen, bathroom, building cupboards, installing the gas system and fitting various bits of electrical equipment. Living on a boat while fitting it out is always going to be a bit slower - plus I didn't have any previous experience and never claimed to be quick.

But I think even inexperienced people can get reasonable results if they take their time and do plenty of research beforehand. I was always ok at using tools so that helped. If you look carefully every job I did is far from perfect, but I think the overall effect is good.

Galley at the stern

Corridor from the saloon through to the bedroom with the bathroom to the right

Cupboards I built to use the dead space along the corridor and into the bedroom.

Bedroom at the bow. I just bought some pine wardrobes and fitted them to the bulkhead. I couldn't afford oak to match the lining.

 

Thanks for the photos and info. Really looks like a beautiful boat. I'd be proud if mine (when I get one) gets to look half as good as that. I'll look up "lined sailaways". Because I'll be living aboard alone I'll have lots of time, so maybe fitting it out myself would give me something to do. I'm still a few years away from getting my boat yet and I only have about £20,000 saved up so far that I can spend on this - still, I never really seriously considered a widebeam until seeing yours. Interesting to think about.

[mark99]

 

There are three questions here, and they have different answers:

 

a) If a boat is in a lock, and is either raised or lowered, how much water is either drawn from the top pound or released to the bottom pound. A = the volume of the lock (width x length x fall) = V. This is independent of the displacement of the boat (D). So I agree with the point above.

 

b ) If a boat goes uphill from the lower pound to the upper pound, with the lock starting empty and finishing empty, how much water moves from the top pound to the lower pound. This is a different question. The answer is V+D

 

c) If a boat goes downhill from the upper pound to the lower pound, with the lock starting empty and finishing empty, how much water moves from the top pound to the lower pound. This again is a different question, with answer V-D.

 

 

So in answer to Dave G - hopefully?

 

a) Cancelled out irrelevant

b ) Widebeam (big D) uses more than narrowboat (little d)

c) Widebeam (bid D) uses less than narrowboat (little d)

 

But on a retun trip up and down lock(s), all boats, whether big D's or little d's, the D's or d's cancel out so size of boat does not matter.

Edited October 23, 2014 by mark99

[Dalslandia]

 

There are three questions here, and they have different answers:

 

a) If a boat is in a lock, and is either raised or lowered, how much water is either drawn from the top pound or released to the bottom pound. A = the volume of the lock (width x length x fall) = V. This is independent of the displacement of the boat (D). So I agree with the point above.

 

b ) If a boat goes uphill from the lower pound to the upper pound, with the lock starting empty and finishing empty, how much water moves from the top pound to the lower pound. This is a different question. The answer is V+D

 

c) If a boat goes downhill from the upper pound to the lower pound, with the lock starting empty and finishing empty, how much water moves from the top pound to the lower pound. This again is a different question, with answer V-D.

 

a, we agree

b, I agree

c, I agree

d, = b+c= 2V

[markgregoryuk2000]

A Side pond can save between a third and half of V where V is the Volume required to fill the lock

 

If the side pond has volume V the saving is a third (33.3%)

 

If the side pond has infinite volume the saving is half (50%)

 

Ideal case, if you every find a lock/side pond that does not leak please let me know as I would love to see it.

 

The number of side ponds does not matter, the saving would be the same just the amount of work would increase.

 

 

PS Love the wide open layout and those black window covers

[Pykebird]

Thanks for the pictures, Blackrose, she really is a nice boat, you should be proud of her! The widebeam I lived in was never really finished, joys of having a marine engineer as a partner, but with 3 large dogs and a ton of tools, we just about managed.

She was also very easy to drive and had a wheel and hydraulics, much easier than it looked, especially going backwards.

The double locking with my narrowboat did ware a bit thin though, as we cruised a lot with work.