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Enforcement or Harassment


Alan de Enfield

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Enforcement Officers are, by the very nature of their job, going to be working with people who don't actually want them to be there.

 

They start off at a disadvantage, in that their "customer" is always going to be looking to find something to complain about.

 

The number of complaints lodged is not related to the number of justified complaints lodged.

 

Good afternoon, thought you'd appear before long . . . you and your colleagues were mentioned a bit earlier.

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The tripe you have put in that paragraph makes it very clear that, contrasting with those who's opinions are of some importance, you don't really understand the situation or what C&RT's solicitors have done.

If you are now finding this becoming tedious as well as too difficult for you to understand, perhaps you should look elsewhere on this or some other Forum for a thread to which you can make a worthwhile contribution.

 

The thing is Tony, when I first became aware of the action that CRT were taking against you, I was very concerned that you were an innocent party, being used to test how far CRT's interpretation of licence conditions could be pushed. Far from bending a knee or tugging a forelock, I was very prepared to support your fight.

 

It is simply by reading your continual protestations, and the unsubtantiated accusations which you make - often accusations which have nothing whatever to do with the case in hand - that I've formed the opinion I have.

 

Thank you for your concern, but I have a reasonably good understanding of the actual issues, as opposed to the invective, so I'll continue to post here as long as this is an open forum.

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Enforcement Officers are, by the very nature of their job, going to be working with people who don't actually want them to be there.

 

They start off at a disadvantage, in that their "customer" is always going to be looking to find something to complain about.

 

The number of complaints lodged is not related to the number of justified complaints lodged.

 

Who is it you expect to rule a complaint is justified , the ombudsman who we have heard lots about recently , not independent and depending on c&rt for his living .

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It is clear there are two sides to the story and any organisation crt included is going to support their staff. It is also the case that enforcement staff in any walk of life are mostly only complained about by people they are taking action with. It is also the case that every so often you get an individual who is unprofessional and it is in these circumstances you need to collect your evidence. No one at crt or anywhere else will accept unsubstantiated allegations being made by someone, therefore if you feel this particular officer is misbehaving then record his actions.

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The thing is Tony, when I first became aware of the action that CRT were taking against you, I was very concerned that you were an innocent party, being used to test how far CRT's interpretation of licence conditions could be pushed. Far from bending a knee or tugging a forelock, I was very prepared to support your fight.

 

It is simply by reading your continual protestations, and the unsubtantiated accusations which you make - often accusations which have nothing whatever to do with the case in hand - that I've formed the opinion I have.

 

Thank you for your concern, but I have a reasonably good understanding of the actual issues, as opposed to the invective, so I'll continue to post here as long as this is an open forum.

 

You've got one thing partly right in that. There certainly have been plenty of unsubstantiated accusations, but they've all originated from C&RT. Do you think that may have something to do with why they are now so anxious to stop the proceedings?

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Yes I did, and I'm very pleased with them. If certain people on this Forum ever start approving of anything I say or do, then I will begin to think that I'm getting things wrong.

.

However I think it won't be that long before the whole cycle starts repeating again and you will find yourself in the mire with CRT again over something else or something similar.

 

The attitude you display virtually gurantees that, mean while the rest of us continue to stay on the right side of the rules (CCers or not) and don't even come close to getting into a legal wrangle about them. So for me and I suspect a few others on here whether you seek our approval or not matters not a jot.

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It is clear there are two sides to the story and any organisation crt included is going to support their staff. It is also the case that enforcement staff in any walk of life are mostly only complained about by people they are taking action with. It is also the case that every so often you get an individual who is unprofessional and it is in these circumstances you need to collect your evidence. No one at crt or anywhere else will accept unsubstantiated allegations being made by someone, therefore if you feel this particular officer is misbehaving then record his actions.

And your own.

Just as a add on I get on very well with our patrol officers and lengthman (yes we have one) and have nothing but praise for our lock keepers

 

Peter

Indeed.

 

The one time we did have a run in with CRT, some six or more years ago now, our local patrol officer was almost apologetic that the case had to be taken further. He couldn't have been more helpful.

 

Treat people with respect and they will treat you with it as well.

 

Charge headlong into confrontation (which appears to be Tony's favourite tactic) and you will only be faced with further confrontation.

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I am aware of five complaints against the officer involved, two of them are formal complaints, one of which is ongoing.

 

 

When I was a policeman, it was standard practice amongst some solicitors to put in a complaint in the hope that some sort of plea bargain may be offered.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

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And your own.

Indeed.

 

The one time we did have a run in with CRT, some six or more years ago now, our local patrol officer was almost apologetic that the case had to be taken further. He couldn't have been more helpful.

 

Treat people with respect and they will treat you with it as well.

 

Charge headlong into confrontation (which appears to be Tony's favourite tactic) and you will only be faced with further confrontation.

 

 

However I think it won't be that long before the whole cycle starts repeating again and you will find yourself in the mire with CRT again over something else or something similar.

 

The attitude you display virtually gurantees that, mean while the rest of us continue to stay on the right side of the rules (CCers or not) and don't even come close to getting into a legal wrangle about them. So for me and I suspect a few others on here whether you seek our approval or not matters not a jot.

 

I think you both have it spot on.

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tony dunkley" data-cid="1423304" data-date="Today, 02:37 PM, on 22 Oct 2014 - 2:37 PM, said:

You still haven't got it have you? Your approval is the last thing I'd ever want.

Yes I get it Tony, it's you that doesn't. I realise you don't and my point is 'so what'?

 

The difference between you and I (and others on here) is that we are a lot less likely to come close to losing our boats in a legal dispute with CRT, where as I think it's more understandable that you have and that you probably will again.

Edited by The Dog House
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You still haven't got it have you? Your approval is the last thing I'd ever want.

 

And you wonder why CRT "have got it in for you" frusty.gif

 

Seriously Tony. Have you ever stood back and taken at a look at how you treat people and how this may have an effect on how they are treating you?

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You've got one thing partly right in that. There certainly have been plenty of unsubstantiated accusations, but they've all originated from C&RT. Do you think that may have something to do with why they are now so anxious to stop the proceedings?

 

I think they stopped the proceedings because once you had obtained a licence there was no longer a case to be made that an order be granted.

 

If you felt justified in your claims that CRT's accusations had no substance, why did you remove the cause for the case to be heard and have a judgement made in your favour?

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How would you know that ?

It could well be that all the complaints were justified.

 

But, apparently, (In C&RTs eyes) non of the complaints are justified

 

"The accusations of harassment against Stuart Gardner are completely unjustified"

 

I said that the two numbers were UNRELATED.

 

That is to say that one cannot infer from the number of complaints that were made how many were valid.

 

In most fields of work, one can infer that if one employee has 20 complaints and another has 10, the employee with 20 will have more valid complaints against them. There will be a strong correlation.

 

For people in enforcement roles, that breaks down.

 

If an employee in enforcement has 20 complaints, it is just as likely that none of them will be valid as that most of them will be valid. There is no correlation.

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What if the person with complaints against them is involved in a baseless enforcement action resulting in the organisation burning money on legal fees and looking like a collection of vindictive fools lacking a clue between them. Does that correlate to anything?

  • Greenie 1
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Yes I get it Tony, it's you that doesn't. I realise you don't and my point is 'so what'?

 

The difference between you and I (and others on here) is that we are a lot less likely to come close to losing our boats in a legal dispute with CRT, where as I think it's more understandable that you have and that you probably will again.

 

As long as you continue being prepared to submit to C&RT's every whim, legal or otherwise, all your boats may be quite safe, after all, where in history are there any recorded instances of dictatorial regimes abusing those within their influence?

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NC

It does seem from the tone of your posts that you believe that CRT's pursuit of Tony was justified and that he is/was guilty as charged.

Bob

It seems to me that some are trying to suggest that CaRT's pursuit of Tony was justified due to the way he responds to a minority of posters on this forum!

 

At the very least, some are insinuating that if Tony displayed the same attitude to CaRT that he displays towards them, then CaRT's actions (and any actions they take in the future) are justified.

 

However, apart from Tony's posting style and 'attitude' does NC or anyone else believe that CRT's pursuit of Tony was justified and that he is/was guilty as charged?

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tony dunkley, on 22 Oct 2014 - 3:05 PM, said:

 

As long as you continue being prepared to submit to C&RT's every whim, legal or otherwise, all your boats may be quite safe, after all, where in history are there any recorded instances of dictatorial regimes abusing those within their influence?

 

I can stay within the rules yes, so no problem.

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For what it's worth (not much) my view is that the way CRT dealt with Tony was wrong, but that having seen the way Tony states his case on this forum, I suspect that to a large degree, it is his attitude which has brought that situation about.

 

Just the most recent example of this being him posting an accusation that CRT had deliberatly tried to trick him into not being able to make representations in relation to the costs order; namely that they sent the documentation to an address where they knew he couldn't be found. As details were teased out, it became clear that this wasn't quite the case at all and to be honest, I find his continual protestations and accusations are becoming tedious.

 

A judge is going to have to decide whether Tony is entitled to have CRT pay some or all of his costs. He may find that if by his actions and statements, Tony has brought the action upon himself, he is not entitled to costs. I have confidence that a judge will decide the matter fairly, so I'll await the outcome.

 

I'm pleased Tony didn't lose his home and I'd like to say I hope CRT leave him in peace now, but my guess is that he will continue to try and antoagonise them. He seems to enjoy it.

 

Greenie,

Edited by Graham Davis
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However, apart from Tony's posting style and 'attitude' does NC or anyone else believe that CRT's pursuit of Tony was justified and that he is/was guilty as charged?

 

I think I have made it clear in earlier postings that CRT have not emerged from this smelling of roses, and given the fact it's withdrawn it's evident they should not have gone down that route.

 

My take is that they may not have had there been a less confrontational stance taken from the start they may not have done but it then almost became a 'point of principal' on their part to fight on against him because of his stance.

 

Was that wrong on the part of CRT? If true yes of course it was. Unprofessional or vindictive even? well again if true yes.

 

I don't however think Tony helped his case one jot, and it may have even been avoided all together.

 

Edited by Theo
Remove irrelevant stuff
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It seems to me that some are trying to suggest that CaRT's pursuit of Tony was justified due to the way he responds to a minority of posters on this forum!

 

At the very least, some are insinuating that if Tony displayed the same attitude to CaRT that he displays towards them, then CaRT's actions (and any actions they take in the future) are justified.

 

However, apart from Tony's posting style and 'attitude' does NC or anyone else believe that CRT's pursuit of Tony was justified and that he is/was guilty as charged?

 

It seems to me that Tony has put forward his side of the story, emphasising those facets that are supportive of his claim that he was victimised. CRT have (as they must) remained silent and have not argued the case.

 

As such, it is clear that we have only one side of the story.

 

Given the way that Tony deals with other people it is not difficult to imagine that he would have conducted himself in a generally confrontational manner in this episode and would have taken every opportunity to cause further problems for himself.

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It seems to me that some are trying to suggest that CaRT's pursuit of Tony was justified due to the way he responds to a minority of posters on this forum!

 

At the very least, some are insinuating that if Tony displayed the same attitude to CaRT that he displays towards them, then CaRT's actions (and any actions they take in the future) are justified.

 

However, apart from Tony's posting style and 'attitude' does NC or anyone else believe that CRT's pursuit of Tony was justified and that he is/was guilty as charged?

 

 

I thought I made that very clear, but I'll state it again.

 

The way Tony was treated by CRT was wrong. In a narrow, legal sense, they were justified in seeking a court order against Tony's boat but it is absolutely not a matter of guilt or innocence. This was a dispute about licence conditions not a criminal prosecution.

 

It is not Tony's 'posting style' which gives me pause to question his version of events, but the attitude he displays in which only his interpretation is the right one and that anyone who disagrees or tries to see another view must have an agenda or be an apologist for the dictatorial CRT regieme.

 

I think if that's the way you approach things, it's inevitable that any dispute will escalate to the point where only a court will be able to sort it out.

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I can stay within the rules yes, so no problem.

It was established long ago that Tony Dunkley is and was boating 'within the rules'.

 

Do keep up.

I thought I made that very clear, but I'll state it again.

 

The way Tony was treated by CRT was wrong. In a narrow, legal sense, they were justified in seeking a court order against Tony's boat but it is absolutely not a matter of guilt or innocence. This was a dispute about licence conditions not a criminal prosecution.

 

It is not Tony's 'posting style' which gives me pause to question his version of events, but the attitude he displays in which only his interpretation is the right one and that anyone who disagrees or tries to see another view must have an agenda or be an apologist for the dictatorial CRT regieme.

 

I think if that's the way you approach things, it's inevitable that any dispute will escalate to the point where only a court will be able to sort it out.

Personally I think if a body with the clout of CRT starts an action that could end with the removal of your home your are at the very least likely if not justified is being a belligerent and confrontational.

 

And you are wrong. 'In a narrow legal sense' they were not justified in seeking a court order. That much is clear whatever you think of his style.

 

Nigel Moore's posts (and potential legal support in court) completely support and vindicate his position. It seems disingenuous that people who are so fond of saying 'play the issues, don't play the man' are themselves guilty of that very thing

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It was established long ago that Tony Dunkley is and was boating 'within the rules'.

 

Do keep up.

 

Personally I think if a body with the clout of CRT starts an action that could end with the removal of your home your are at the very least likely if not justified is being a belligerent and confrontational.

 

And you are wrong. 'In a narrow legal sense' they were not justified in seeking a court order. That much is clear whatever you think of his style.

 

Nigel Moore's posts (and potential legal support in court) completely support and vindicate his position. It seems disingenuous that people who are so fond of saying 'play the issues, don't play the man' are themselves guilty of that very thing

 

I can't say I agree with you very often, but you are quite right this time around.

 

Tony has every right to be as much of an in-your-face curmudgeon as he wants to be, and that particularly applies when an organization with endless resources and the authority of a quasi-government organization tries to take his home. Tony's attitude and personality determine how many friends he has, they don't determine his rights.

 

No person should have to ask nicely to not have their rights infringed upon. As a matter of fact, it is those who are overtly confrontational with abusive authority that guarantee that the meeker amongst us do not have their rights curtailed or trampled upon.

 

Those people who are saying that Tony is an obnoxious person are probably right. However, to say that his problems could have been avoided with an appropriate amount of arse kissing are missing the point. Tony showed CRT that they can't steamroll boaters just because of their unlimited resources and position of authority. His was a veritable David vs. Goliath scenario, and David won. In winning, it would seem that he has done a service to all those subject to CRT's whims. Anyone who thinks that a tyrant becomes more benevolent with victory hasn't paid much attention to history.

 

If CRT had succeeded in taking Tony's home in an illegal manner, they would have felt empowered to take anyone else's boat in the same manner. Those who say they have nothing to fear because they are playing by the rules, seem to ignore the fact that Tony was playing by the rules when CRT came after him.

 

 

ETA - a missing word.

Edited by Paul G2
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I can't say I agree with you very often, but you are quite right this time around.

 

Tony has every right to be as much of an in-your-face curmudgeon as he wants to be, and that particularly applies when an organization with endless resources and the authority of a quasi-government organization tries to take his home. Tony's attitude and personality determine how many friends he has, they don't determine his rights.

 

No person should have to ask nicely to not have their rights infringed upon. As a matter of fact, it is those who are overtly confrontational with abusive authority that guarantee that the meeker amongst us do have their rights curtailed or trampled upon.

 

Those people who are saying that Tony is an obnoxious person are probably right. However, to say that his problems could have been avoided with an appropriate amount of arse kissing are missing the point. Tony showed CRT that they can't steamroll boaters just because of their unlimited resources and position of authority. His was a veritable David vs. Goliath scenario, and David won. In winning, it would seem that he has done a service to all those subject to CRT's whims. Anyone who thinks that a tyrant becomes more benevolent with victory hasn't paid much attention to history.

 

If CRT had succeeded in taking Tony's home in an illegal manner, they would have felt empowered to take anyone else's boat in the same manner. Those who say they have nothing to fear because they are playing by the rules, seem to ignore the fact that Tony was playing by the rules when CRT came after him.

And we read on here of people who engage with CRT (that is not arse kissing by the way) seem to get treated very fairly.

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