Springer Dilemma

[mikevye]

My friend has recently had a Springer for sale at a well known brokerage. The boat sold, subject to survey and a deposit taken. The survey, organised by the brokerage, failed the boat on the steel thickness stating that 4mm was completely unacceptable. As Springers were constructed of 1/8th steel as standard, less than 4mm I am completely baffled as to why the brokerage took the boat for sale in the first place!! Maybe the quote for £7500 + vat to over plate it was the incentive? Other remedial work has been carried out at a boatyard and the hull is well within tolerance for a 30 year old boat with NO pitting at all on the hull. I have spoken to two surveyors and they advised me that 4mm is the minimum on boats of modern construction. They wouldplace an advisory on their report clearly identifying the unique nature of Springer construction and leave the final decision to the client as to whether to buy the boat or not and definitely not condemn the boat to the scrapyard. Any thoughts on this please with references to friendly Springer brokerages greatly appreciated.

[Alan de Enfield]

I was under the impression that Springers were generally 6mm and it was just the little 'water bug' was made from 3.75mm steel

[Dar Kuma]

When I had a 30 foot springer surveyed it had min 4.8mm

[Alan de Enfield]

I think what you actually need is a Springer friendly surveyor, rather than a Springer friendly broker.

 

It has been said in the past that the limiting factor to 'thickness' is the insurance companies and that for older boats (of which Springers would generally fall within) it is stated as 4mm being the minimum.

 

Whilst you may not be able to insure it 'fully comp' the new buyer could always insure it 3rd party only - this obviously will limit the number of potential buyers.

 

Whilton Marina would no doubt be able to sell it - particularly if the buyer allows them to use their 'pet' surveyor.

[Paul C]

2 anomolies trouble me:

 

1) surveys (well, the surveys people get during buying a narrowboat, not eg a survey on a cross channel ferry to certificate it for commercial use etc) don't "pass" or "fail" a boat, its a report on its condition.

2) a buyer should have the relationship with the surveyor themselves, not leave it to the brokerage. By all means allow them to organise the details of when it can come out the water etc but it should be commissioned by the seller. The original post wasn't clear on the details of this though, so it might be a non-issue.

 

Normally what occurs is the surveyor will measure a benign area of the hull thickness to determine the design/built thickness, if he didn't do that and simply (incorrectly) guessed, then I'd say the survey hasn't been adequate and it would be fair enough to not pay the surveyor (you didn't pay in advance, did you?)

[GUMPY]

Mosr springers were 3/16 plate or 4.8mm

[Starcoaster]

It does depend on the age and model of Springer- some started off at 6mm, others less.

4mm or above is the uniform hull thickness required to get fully comp insurance, and below 4mm is the figure at which insurance companies sometimes get twitchy, or when surveyors state overplating or repair is desirable.

 

If no area of the hull had under 4mm thickness remaining, I fail to see the problem.

[MtB]

It's a well known fact that water passes straight through steel plate any less than 4mm thick.

 

 

MtB

[SamKingfisher]

When people hold a piece of 4mm steel, they tend to re-evaluate how much of a problem it is.

[Mac of Cygnet]

My insurance company (Saga) has never asked for any evidence of a survey, let alone insist on a 4mm minimum hull thickness. (Yes, it's fully comp).

[Starcoaster]

When people hold a piece of 4mm steel, they tend to re-evaluate how much of a problem it is.

 

This is very true! My Springer's hull was surveyed at 5.8mm thickness on average, which sounded very flimsy to me and did nothing to ease my paranoia of a Titanic-style sinking if I scraped the bank. However, when MtB drilled out a circle of my hull's side in order to fit the shower waste outlet, and I got to actually hold it in my hand, I felt a lot more confident.

(I now wear the removed cut-out disc of hull metal on a necklace, because I am strange like that.)

[bizzard]

 

This is very true! My Springer's hull was surveyed at 5.8mm thickness on average, which sounded very flimsy to me and did nothing to ease my paranoia of a Titanic-style sinking if I scraped the bank. However, when MtB drilled out a circle of my hull's side in order to fit the shower waste outlet, and I got to actually hold it in my hand, I felt a lot more confident.

(I now wear the removed cut-out disc of hull metal on a necklace, because I am strange like that.)

But surely that disc would really only suit a washer-woman. howsat.

Edited October 11, 2014 by bizzard

[John V]

According to one of the surveyors I used, the classification societies accept up to 15% wastage in primary scantlings and 20% in secondary before cutting out replacing/overplating is required.

Springers are a chined hull and built of thinnish plate but still are far thicker than other boats built for much more arduous conditions.

 

The yacht "Icebird" Sailed from Sydney in 1972 was the first single handed vessel to visit Antarctica, through horrendous weather in icy waters, She was capsized three times. Eventually safely reaching Capetown .....She was a 32' x 9'6" beam yacht built of 1/8" plate with no special reinforcing (apart from steel plates welded over her windows) and as regards longevity she was still sailing 10 years later and I have heard (second hand) a lot later

[MtB]

According to one of the surveyors I used, the classification societies accept up to 15% wastage in primary scantlings and 20% in secondary before cutting out replacing/overplating is required.

Springers are a chined hull and built of thinnish plate but still are far thicker than other boats built for much more arduous conditions.

 

The yacht "Icebird" Sailed from Sydney in 1972 was the first single handed vessel to visit Antarctica, through horrendous weather in icy waters, She was capsized three times. Eventually safely reaching Capetown .....She was a 32' x 9'6" beam yacht built of 1/8" plate with no special reinforcing (apart from steel plates welded over her windows) and as regards longevity she was still sailing 10 years later and I have heard (second hand) a lot later

 

Yes and I understand plenty of 90ft Dutch Barges out there built from 1/4" (6mm) plate.

 

 

MtB

[Graham Davis]

But surely that disc would really only suit a washerwoman.

 

Bizz, you're living dangerously!

[Water Babe]

It's a well known fact that water passes straight through steel plate any less than 4mm thick.

 

 

MtB

That's an interesting fact! My springer is over 30years old and is still floating with steel less than 4mm thick. I am curious to know where you got that fact from

[DaveC]

That's an interesting fact! My springer is over 30years old and is still floating with steel less than 4mm thick. I am curious to know where you got that fact from

 

I think Mike had his tongue firmly in his cheek!

 

 

Dave

[Alan de Enfield]

That's an interesting fact! My springer is over 30years old and is still floating with steel less than 4mm thick. I am curious to know where you got that fact from

 

[Rickent]

That's an interesting fact! My springer is over 30years old and is still floating with steel less than 4mm thick. I am curious to know where you got that fact from

 

 

 

:-)))

[Water Babe]

Really??!! Phew! There's me thinking that you were all dull, boring, balding old men (except Bizzard)!! Mike, hope the tongue is in the cheek and not elsewhere! Alan, is a cute duck.

[the barnacle]

 

 

(I now wear the removed cut-out disc of hull metal on a necklace, because I am strange like that.)

smart, i like things like that, i must also be strange lol

[Water Babe]

Oh dear. The post posted itself! Should have read Alan, your picture of the duck is cute. Sorry Alan. Not sure what the joke is though.

[Paul G2]

Really??!! Phew! There's me thinking that you were all dull, boring, balding old men (except Bizzard)!! Mike, hope the tongue is in the cheek and not elsewhere! Alan, is a cute duck.

 

How presumptuous! Not everyone is balding...

 

 

 

Welcome to the forum.

[Alan de Enfield]

Water Babe, on 11 Oct 2014 - 7:19 PM, said:

Oh dear. The post posted itself! Should have read Alan, your picture of the duck is cute. Sorry Alan. Not sure what the joke is though.

 

Ok - metal will not leak water thru' it until it is 0.0mm thick.

 

It went 'over your head'.

 

Anyway - welcome aboard.

Edited October 11, 2014 by Alan de Enfield

[Starcoaster]

smart, i like things like that, i must also be strange lol

 

Ha I did also have my Grandmother's wisdom tooth in a gold fitting on a chain until it got stolen when my parent's house was burgled... And my friend who had to have pins and plates in his arms when he was younger wears one of the plates on a chain too!

 

We are freaks, we will inherit the earth.