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CRT moorings auction petition


Alf Roberts

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CRT have missed out the option to withdraw from an auction model altogether.

 

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/that-the-trustees-of-the-canal-and-rrver-trust-withdraw-the-current-consultation-on-moorings-sales

 

 

See 'Mooring Sales Consultation' at:

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/about-us/consultations/current-consultations

Edited by Alf Roberts
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just signed

 

Doing nothing means nothing changes If its inaccurate the more attention more the truth will come out

that the same in any situation

 

Remember we have a government because for many reasons over halve the population could not be bothered to vote or raise there voice

Edited by davidc
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I'm sure there is plenty of room to improve the auction system, however if you do away with it altogether, what would you replace it with? Like it or not we live in a capitalist country where ability to pay is the determining factor in virtually everything.

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I'm sure there is plenty of room to improve the auction system, however if you do away with it altogether, what would you replace it with? Like it or not we live in a capitalist country where ability to pay is the determining factor in virtually everything.

 

Yeah, the 38 degrees thing seemed short on a replacement solution. Currently working my way through the consultation......

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I'm sure there is plenty of room to improve the auction system, however if you do away with it altogether, what would you replace it with? Like it or not we live in a capitalist country where ability to pay is the determining factor in virtually everything.

surely as the largest provider of moorings CRT must have some idea of market value. Did you have to bid for your marina mooring?

  • Greenie 1
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I'm sure there is plenty of room to improve the auction system, however if you do away with it altogether, what would you replace it with? Like it or not we live in a capitalist country where ability to pay is the determining factor in virtually everything.

How would you address the APPG's concerns?

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I'm sure there is plenty of room to improve the auction system, however if you do away with it altogether, what would you replace it with? Like it or not we live in a capitalist country where ability to pay is the determining factor in virtually everything.

 

Can you possibly justify though the situation that the highest bidder pays the fixed price that they have bid for the three years of the contract, but thereafter is simply offered a contract that reverts the price they pay to the "standard" book price for that site, and hence makes no allowance for whether they have been paying far less, or far more than that amount?

 

Or can you justify that the system is supposed to be determining a fair market rate, but the "reserve" is now currently set at 90% of the standard or "guide" price, which, allowing for the possibility of a prompt payment discount for existing moorers, means you cannot actually get one at less than "book", and hence that probably 50% of moorings for auction go unsold, rather than let someone have them at what they are prepared to pay.

 

Not only is this in no way a free market, but it is clearly a poor deal for CRT, who must overall be losing out financially over the old systems based just on a list price.

 

No private moorings are sold to the highest bidder - why should a charitable trust be doing it, when marina businesses do not?

Edited by alan_fincher
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I have always felt that the auction system was flawed, not just unfair in many ways but also failing to generate the maximum income for C&RT.

This is speaking as someone from the outside (as my mooring is off line) with no axe to grind

 

 

edit for missing letter

Edited by John V
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We're taking part in a CART moorings auction right now. If there are no other bidders, we may get the mooring at a bargain price (the "reserve" price) and save ourselves some money. In addition, if we win, the price p.a. is guaranteed not to rise for three years, unlike our previous mooring where there was a (quite reasonable) cost of living increase each year. It looks like a win-win situation to me, unless we lose-lose of course.

The petition writer makes the odd suggestion that there is something wrong with awarding the mooring contract to the highest bidder. Surely they would not expect CART to award it to the lowest bidder? Perhaps he should try going to an antiques auction, bid on an item which goes for £1,000, then throw a tantrum because he thinks that his bid of £300 should have won.

Edited by Athy
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Just read it - not much wrong with what they propose really. The main one being, they're going to not set reserve prices any more; and they're going to offer more at a fixed price.

It also says they will continue with auctions in more popular areas and it does not say they are going to keep setting an artificial auuction

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Athy

 

I think part of my objection is the reserve price system

If large numbers of moorings go unsold this would indicate that the reserve is too high for that particular mooring.

If a system was in place for example where a mooring fails to reach its reserve, but a lower bid is received then the mooring should be offered again for a fixed period.

If no improved offers are received, then it should be given to the highest bidder below the reserve

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Can you possibly justify though the situation that the highest bidder pays the fixed price that they have bid for the three years of the contract, but thereafter is simply offered a contract that reverts the price they pay to the "standard" book price for that site, and hence makes no allowance for whether they have been paying far less, or far more than that amount?

 

Or can you justify that the system is supposed to be determining a fair market rate, but the "reserve" is now currently set at 90% of the standard or "guide" price, which, allowing for the possibility of a prompt payment discount for existing moorers, means you cannot actually get one at less than "book", and hence that probably 50% of moorings for auction go unsold, rather than let someone have them at what they are prepared to pay.

 

Not only is this in no way a free market, but it is clearly a poor deal for CRT, who must overall be losing out financially over the old systems based just on a list price.

 

No private moorings are sold to the highest bidder - why should a charitable trust be doing it, when marina businesses do not?

As I said, there is plenty of scope to improve the current system. But I asked what the replacement concept should be and if you want to align it with marina berths, it becomes "first come first served" and how much of a problem that becomes is dependant on supply vs demand. That might have been OK in the pre-internet age but would now give unfair advantage to internet-savvy folk.

 

So you would just shift the balance from the wealthy to the internet savvy. Tough luck for the old codger who doesn't "do" internet.

Edited by nicknorman
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As I said, there is plenty of scope to improve the current system. But I asked what the replacement concept should be and if you want to align it with marina berths, it becomes "first come first served" and how much of a problem that becomes is dependant on supply vs demand. That might have been OK in the pre-internet age but would now give unfair advantage to internet-savvy folk.

 

So you would just shift the balance from the wealthy to the internet savvy. Tough luck for the old codger who doesn't "do" internet.

Fair point but I guess they find out the same way people find out about Marina Vacancies I think it is only in certain areas where it might be a problem

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Fair point but I guess they find out the same way people find out about Marina Vacancies I think it is only in certain areas where it might be a problem

Marinas tend to hold waiting lists if they are full so I suppose if CRT could be bothered to do that, it would help provided those on the list could be contacted. Back in the heady days of 2010 when marinas were full, we put our name down for Fazeley Mill Marina whilst the boat was in build, and were number 4 on the list. 6 months later we were still #4 but then I got a weekday daytime call at home saying there was a vacancy and the first of the 4 to say "yes" would get it. Fortunately I was on a day off and said "yes" even though the boat was not yet delivered. Not sure how fair that was!

 

Now of course they have more turnover and nearly always have vacancies - how things have changed in 4 years!

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They used to do waiting lists and are determined it won't go back to using them. Hence the current proposals: fixed price for low-demand areas and auctions for normal-high demand.

Yes so that must have taken them ages to think of that idea. no one bidding on unpopular locations let's sell them outside the auction system. Wonder if it was someone with an MBA who worked that out
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38degrees site, no thanks. Not even clicked as it will be inaccurate.

Because it's members led, they do occasionally host some flaky propositions, but it's worth remembering that 38 degrees were at the forefront of the the opposition campaign to the original forestry sell off. They've also done some good work on some of the NHS issues, so tarring the whole project as innacurate doesn't really help. They seem a lot more grounded than some of the other citizen advocate sites, like Avaas or Change.org

Edited by The Toad in the Hole
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Exactly so - I guess Robbo believes anything not decreed by his masters is not fit for purpose.


Because it's members led, they do occasionally host some flaky propositions, but it's worth remembering that 38 degrees were at the forefront of the the opposition campaign to the original forestry sell off. They've also done some good work on some of the NHS issues, so tarring the whole project as innacurate doesn't really help. They seem a lot more grounded than some of the other citizen advocate sites, like Avaas or Change.org

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We're taking part in a CART moorings auction right now. If there are no other bidders, we may get the mooring at a bargain price (the "reserve" price) and save ourselves some money. In addition, if we win, the price p.a. is guaranteed not to rise for three years, unlike our previous mooring where there was a (quite reasonable) cost of living increase each year. It looks like a win-win situation to me, unless we lose-lose of course.

 

Check out what that "reserve" price is as a percentage of "guide".

 

Usually it is 90%.

 

It you are on a standard moorings contract you can get a 10% discount for prompt payment, but if you win a mooring at auction, you can not.

 

Therefore for the first year there will be no saving at all. CRT have not applied annual increases to the prices of some of the less popular linear moorings recently, so it is possible you may even save less than you think in subsequent years.

 

When you could find moorings where the reserve was 75% of guide there were indeed some relative bargains, but I don't believe that as been the case for several years now.

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Check out what that "reserve" price is as a percentage of "guide".

 

Usually it is 90%.

 

It you are on a standard moorings contract you can get a 10% discount for prompt payment, but if you win a mooring at auction, you can not.

 

Therefore for the first year there will be no saving at all. CRT have not applied annual increases to the prices of some of the less popular linear moorings recently, so it is possible you may even save less than you think in subsequent years.

 

When you could find moorings where the reserve was 75% of guide there were indeed some relative bargains, but I don't believe that as been the case for several years now.

Yes, 90% is correct. As we are new to the wonderful world of CART LTMs I didn't know that the reserve price used to be lower.

I am not sure how one gets a "standard mooring contract". We currently have a short-term (three month) CART mooring contract, but I don't recall any offer of a reduction for prompt payment.

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Marinas tend to hold waiting lists if they are full so I suppose if CRT could be bothered to do that, it would help provided those on the list could be contacted. Back in the heady days of 2010 when marinas were full, we put our name down for Fazeley Mill Marina whilst the boat was in build, and were number 4 on the list. 6 months later we were still #4 but then I got a weekday daytime call at home saying there was a vacancy and the first of the 4 to say "yes" would get it. Fortunately I was on a day off and said "yes" even though the boat was not yet delivered. Not sure how fair that was!

 

Not all marinas though. I remember chatting to a chap who ran a moorings who said he used to have a waiting list, but whenever a space came up and he rang the next on the list he inevitably found that they now had a mooring elsewhere, but hadn't asked to be taken off his list. So he ended up ringing several people before getting to anyone still interested. He just found it easier to tell those looking for a mooring to ring from time to time to see if he had any vacancies. He never had to wait long before they were filled.

 

Different these days with demand lower in many places.

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