Boats & Cills

[Dinz]

See there has been another flurry of boats and cills mating!

[sorry info read on the dark side]

A lot of comments made about dropping bottom paddles quickly etc.

Did Caen last week and almost all the bottom gates had reduction gearboxes on them meaning that it requires dozens of turns to shut each one so it is not a quick event to close down.

Especially if single handing.

Are these common across the system or are they just additions to cover up poor paddle operations?

Have ended up just cracking 1 paddle and being careful and slow.

 

 

[luctor et emergo]

See there has been another flurry of boats and cills mating!

[sorry info read on the dark side]

A lot of comments made about dropping bottom paddles quickly etc.

Did Caen last week and almost all the bottom gates had reduction gearboxes on them meaning that it requires dozens of turns to shut each one so it is not a quick event to close down.

Especially if single handing.

Are these common across the system or are they just additions to cover up poor paddle operations?

Have ended up just cracking 1 paddle and being careful and slow.

 

 

You can drop the paddles quickly, hold the spindle, lift the pawl (catch), and release the spindle. In an emergency let the paddle drop. If no emergency, let the paddle decend whilst slowing it by gripping the spindle. I do it that way all the time.

[Dinz]

Sorry but no you cannot.

Lift pawl and you then have to hand crank.

In fact some struggle to close and the paddle gear starts twisting off the gate face.

[BenC]

You can drop the paddles quickly, hold the spindle, lift the pawl (catch), and release the spindle. In an emergency let the paddle drop. If no emergency, let the paddle decend whilst slowing it by gripping the spindle. I do it that way all the time.

Not on the K and A where all the paddles have the reduction gear boxes. You have to wind them back down, about 50 turns! each paddle! There are reduction gear boxes in other places, but luckily not everywhere. They were supposed to make the operation easier so that everyone could operate the system, but some are just a hard to turn as un-geared ones, just you have to do 5 times as many turns!

[Alf Roberts]

It is true with much Kennet and Avon paddle gear and the only solution is to keep your bow on the bottom gate at all times.

It also applies to Hatton and other GU locks where the so-called self-closing paddles are fitted.

[bizzard]

In my opinion the big increase in cillings and boats sinking in locks is due to two main things which need addressing. One is to do away with the silly cill markers and two is to ban the use off all mobile phones, i pads, walkie talkies and the like whilst working locks. Time and again I see the person on the helm of boats and their lock wheelers playing about with these devices whilst locks are filling or emptying and not concentrating on what's going on and I'm almost certain that these two factors have contributed to some or many of the recent sinkings.

[alan_fincher]

Over geared reduction boxes added to locks is far from just a K&A thing. Without thinking too hard, there is plenty on the Northern canals like the Leeds & Liverpool or the Rochdale, (though you can never guess what you will encounter where), and also at locks like Etruria (Stoke top) on the T&M.

These will seldom drop on their own, and can take 40 to 50 turns to wind down.

Also anywhere that has the BW hydraulic gear, (typically 20 plus turns).

Generally many paddles will only drop, even if of original design, if there is not too much water pressure, so you can't rely on it at any lock in my experience, (typically a GU bottom gate paddle will stay up without the pawl on until the lock is maybe half empty - many are now so stiff they will not fall even if there is no difference in water level).

I don't find the Ham Baker ones on the GU Birmingham main line worse than most others, BTW, some will drop, and those that don't usually can be encouraged too fairly easily.

A further complication is anti-vandal, (AV), locks - if you are doing something like the Ashton, and you quickly need to get the paddles up at one end of a lock to prevent an accident, then not only may you need 20 plus turns of hydraulic gear, but you will first need maybe half a dozen turns of a screw based lock with your handcuff key.

If you spot a "cilling" already in progress, you need to make a very quick decision to stop it worsening, and I have on one occasion (not my boat!) almost certainly saved a sinking by getting the top paddles up very quickly, to equalise the situation and give enough time to get the bottom paddles down. Had I tried running to the other end of the lock to simply stop more water being drained out, I doubt very much I would have been in time - it was a very close thing.

In my opinion the big increase in cillings and boats sinking in locks is due to two main things which need addressing. One is to do away with the silly cill markers .......

 

Whilst they may not help in many cases, I'm not sure how they actually make things worse.

 

I find it helpful to know how far a cill projects, because there can be odd exveptions on any canal where it is very different from what you might expect.

 

As long as the marker is correctly, or at worst on the "pessimistic" side, I can't see why they can make things worse?

[luctor et emergo]

Sorry but no you cannot.

Lift pawl and you then have to hand crank.

In fact some struggle to close and the paddle gear starts twisting off the gate face.

Some are to stiff to drop,( lack of maintenance or bend rods) but he, what do I know..

[mark99]

 

 

As long as the marker is correctly, or at worst on the "pessimistic" side, I can't see why they can make things worse?

 

 

And there are some cills where the metal guard strip has been damaged and pulled away from the vertical cill face, the metal strip projecting past the cill warning marker - just waiting for a rudder.

[luctor et emergo]

Not on the K and A where all the paddles have the reduction gear boxes. You have to wind them back down, about 50 turns! each paddle! There are reduction gear boxes in other places, but luckily not everywhere. They were supposed to make the operation easier so that everyone could operate the system, but some are just a hard to turn as un-geared ones, just you have to do 5 times as many turns!

Really? The reduction gear on the (Western) K&A has a 3:1 ratio.

50 turns??

 

But he, what do I know.

[rrt2]

As all cilling problems occur due to only one factor, the boat in question is too far back in the lock.

Having watched many boats locking down floating midway between the gates at each end why are people not told.

 

"put the front end on the gate and leave it ticking over in forward gear"

[Kendal]

As all cilling problems occur due to only one factor, the boat in question is too far back in the lock.

Having watched many boats locking down floating midway between the gates at each end why are people not told.

 

"put the front end on the gate and leave it ticking over in forward gear"

Because there is a chance of snagging your front fender on the gate. Why not just remain vigilant, surely it's lack of concentration that is the main reason

[David Schweizer]

As all cilling problems occur due to only one factor, the boat in question is too far back in the lock.

Having watched many boats locking down floating midway between the gates at each end why are people not told.

 

"put the front end on the gate and leave it ticking over in forward gear"

Because there is a chance of snagging your front fender on the gate. Why not just remain vigilant, surely it's lack of concentration that is the main reason

 

Not in my experience, I often do that and have never snagged the front fender going down hill. The snagging problem "can" occur going up hill, but going down hill the fender should lift up if it does get caught, (unless you have those uneccessary restraining chains holding it to the hull sides!!)

Edited October 9, 2014 by David Schweizer

[furnessvale]

Because there is a chance of snagging your front fender on the gate. Why not just remain vigilant, surely it's lack of concentration that is the main reason

There is also the problem of increased fender wear. Remember, cut through one strand of a traditional rope fender and the whole thing will unravel (well 50% anyway).

 

Very few boaters fit a slice of tyre to take the wear and to provide a smooth face to slide down the gates.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[bizzard]

Over geared reduction boxes added to locks is far from just a K&A thing. Without thinking too hard, there is plenty on the Northern canals like the Leeds & Liverpool or the Rochdale, (though you can never guess what you will encounter where), and also at locks like Etruria (Stoke top) on the T&M.

 

These will seldom drop on their own, and can take 40 to 50 turns to wind down.

 

Also anywhere that has the BW hydraulic gear, (typically 20 plus turns).

 

Generally many paddles will only drop, even if of original design, if there is not too much water pressure, so you can't rely on it at any lock in my experience, (typically a GU bottom gate paddle will stay up without the pawl on until the lock is maybe half empty - many are now so stiff they will not fall even if there is no difference in water level).

 

I don't find the Ham Baker ones on the GU Birmingham main line worse than most others, BTW, some will drop, and those that don't usually can be encouraged too fairly easily.

 

A further complication is anti-vandal, (AV), locks - if you are doing something like the Ashton, and you quickly need to get the paddles up at one end of a lock to prevent an accident, then not only may you need 20 plus turns of hydraulic gear, but you will first need maybe half a dozen turns of a screw based lock with your handcuff key.

 

If you spot a "cilling" already in progress, you need to make a very quick decision to stop it worsening, and I have on one occasion (not my boat!) almost certainly saved a sinking by getting the top paddles up very quickly, to equalise the situation and give enough time to get the bottom paddles down. Had I tried running to the other end of the lock to simply stop more water being drained out, I doubt very much I would have been in time - it was a very close thing.

 

Whilst they may not help in many cases, I'm not sure how they actually make things worse.

 

I find it helpful to know how far a cill projects, because there can be odd exveptions on any canal where it is very different from what you might expect.

 

As long as the marker is correctly, or at worst on the "pessimistic" side, I can't see why they can make things worse?

I think that before cill markers were introduced folk knew that there was a cill but weren't sure of the extent of it so they made sure that they kept their boats well up in the lock to be on the safe side. With cill markers they maybe cutting it too fine too close the mark and a slight drift back by a foot or two and bingo boat cilled.

[bizzard]

Mmmm, Forum folk seem to be keeping stum about my opinions on mucking about with mobile phones and the like at locks, I wonder why, guilty m'lord perhaps.

[Sabcat]

Mmmm, Forum folk seem to be keeping stum about my opinions on mucking about with mobile phones and the like at locks, I wonder why, guilty m'lord perhaps.

 

There's certainly merit in what you say - pay attention when working a bloody lock.

[Dinz]

Mmmm, Forum folk seem to be keeping stum about my opinions on mucking about with mobile phones and the like at locks, I wonder why, guilty m'lord perhaps.

Only just back in. You are entirely correct. Watching hirers with ipods etc. plugged into their ears. Not even able to hear the engine on its limiter! Scary.

[Sabcat]

As all cilling problems occur due to only one factor, the boat in question is too far back in the lock.

Having watched many boats locking down floating midway between the gates at each end why are people not told.

 

"put the front end on the gate and leave it ticking over in forward gear"

 

That's how I was told to do it and I've not had a problem with the front fender snagging - it's only got two chains on it so I don't see how it could snag, it'll just lift - it might wear out, I don't like the look of a piece of tyre over them but fenders are cheaper than boats.

[Dinz]

Really? The reduction gear on the (Western) K&A has a 3:1 ratio.

50 turns??

 

But he, what do I know.

Ben isn't far off that.

Bring a lock key to Caen & have a go at a full lift on a bottom gate paddle, then come back to us with your thoughts.

[Mac of Cygnet]

As it is normally CRT staff who pick up the pieces in these cases, they should require a full report from the crew concerned on exactly what happened. This may give some idea why these cillings are seemingly more common. They may not tell the truth, of course, especially if Bizzard's theory is correct.

 

But in addition there is no reason why CRT shouldn't make a charge for attending in these cases.

[bizzard]

Only just back in. You are entirely correct. Watching hirers with ipods etc. plugged into their ears. Not even able to hear the engine on its limiter! Scary.

Its not just hirers though. And indeed if a boat sinking is due to inattention due to playing with such devices the folk involved are not ever going let on what they were doing, they will have quickly concealed the thing or dropped it in the lock in panic.

[Sabcat]

As it is normally CRT staff who pick up the pieces in these cases, they should require a full report from the crew concerned on exactly what happened. This may give some idea why these cillings are seemingly more common. They may not tell the truth, of course, especially if Bizzard's theory is correct.

 

But in addition there is no reason why CRT shouldn't make a charge for attending in these cases.

 

I don't think an investigation is going to turn up anything beyond the obvious - human error because of lack of attention.

 

As I understand it (and I might be wrong, I don't have a source for this) if your boat has to be recovered by CaRT they do charge for it and the bill is picked up by your third party insurance which you have to have. As an aside I think anyone without "fully comp" insurance is nuts.

[PaulG]

In my opinion the big increase in cillings and boats sinking in locks is due to two main things which need addressing. One is to do away with the silly cill markers and two is to ban the use off all mobile phones, i pads, walkie talkies and the like whilst working locks. T

Oh dear. The last thing we need is another raft of new "rules", especially when they are essentially unenforceable.

 

Cilling your boat is punishment enough for inattention.

[Sabcat]

Oh dear. The last thing we need is another raft of new "rules", especially when they are essentially unenforceable.

 

Cilling your boat is punishment enough for inattention.

 

Not rules, just one big sign replacing all the other signs at locks that reads "Oi! Dickhead. Pay Attention Or You Might Die"