Should CRT stop transferring licences.

[matty40s]

OK, big can of worms and possible popcorn infestation possible but....

 

So many people are buying boats as a housing solution...fact.

 

CRT doesn't know what to do with it's guidlelines and moorings issues(or non issues in certain locations - look at the money spent/wasted in Stoke Bruerne and Foxton in relation to London)

It possibly faces legal action or losing multitides of cases in court if it takes action in some areas. CRT is trying to use a reactionary attempt to stem the tide.

 

So...boat licence period ends if the boat is sold. Ex owner receives a full rebate.non negotiable on day of sale.

 

As part of the boat sale process, new owners have to state their cruising intentions or home mooring place in waiting.

If the "no home mooring" option is wanted, the sale must include the new owners signing a declaration of intent.

whether this is to see the whole world on a boat,

whether to continuously cruise round the system,

whether to cruise in a defined area, but follow the guidleines set out on the sheet given to them on this admission,

whether to CC in a small area but still stick to limits as known by Jenlyn and others in the inner circle,

or just go and moor up and go to work until someone comes along with a big dog and says I need to use that waterpoint.

 

 

This would give Brokerages the nudge that they cannot keep stating "buy a new home for £25k - Springer"etc.

 

The brokerages have NOT been approached by CRT to change their sales methods, or look out for people just wanting to go to London and live. CRT did state this as an objective, but failed to follow up.

 

Doing something like this is not exceeding their present legal authority, it is just altering the way they sell their licence to cruise and be on CRT waters.

It forces Marinas and brokerages to take a responsible stance.

Private sellers on Appalling duck and elsewhere must also follow suit.

 

I actually can't believe someone from CRT hasn't tried to do this before.

 

 

 

I look forward to posts from Nigel Moore, Tony Dunkerly, Sir Nibble, CarlT and other knowledgeable people, and everyone else , Dave Mayall, don't bore us too much.

 

go on then, shoot me down.

[Guest]

When we sell The Dog House its bog all to do with me what they use it for or how they use it.

 

It's up to the new owners.

Edited October 8, 2014 by The Dog House

[Starcoaster]

Matty, not sure if you're aware of CRT's recent scheme to attempt something roughly similar- I covered it for TT earlier in the year. CBA to look up the online version, but the relevant bits snipped from my original copy reads as follows:

 

Canal & River Trust introduces scheme to ensure new continuous cruisers understand what is required of them

 

As part of the Canal & River Trust’s new Towpath Mooring Management project, the Trust has begun implementation of a sub-project to ensure that new continuous cruisers and people in the planning stages of making a boat purchase understand what is required of them when making a continuous cruising licence declaration.

The Trust is currently planning a communication campaign aimed at people considering a boat purchase for liveaboard use, to ensure that potential new boaters understand that if they intend to stay within a small geographical area aboard their boat, they must have a home mooring within the area or comply in full with the existing continuous cruising guidance. CRT intends to highlight the fact that complying with a continuous cruising declaration, and boating life as a whole, may not be as straightforward as many new liveaboard boaters assume it to be prior to facing the day-to-day realities of life on the cut.

 

Added to this, CRT has already begun implementation of a scheme to contact all new first time continuous cruisers from January 2014 onwards, explaining the requirements of the continuous cruising declaration and how the Trust monitors boat movements. So far, the Trust has sent out 94 introductory letters to new first time continuous cruisers that made their declaration between November 2013 and January 2014.

 

The Trust also intends to provide feedback to new continuous cruisers during the first year of their licence, giving early warnings to boaters who are deemed to be staying within too narrow a geographical area to be considered compliant with their continuous cruising declaration. After the initial year is up, the Trust will advise new continuous cruisers who were found to be non-compliant during their first year that they must acquire a home mooring before their licence will be renewed at the end of its term.

 

Edited October 8, 2014 by Starcoaster

[jenlyn]

The associations are working along lines such as this with CRT

At the last meeting, I asked why CRT did not have marinas and brokers giving out "info" packs to new boaters. I believe they are looking at this.

Your idea on the licence is a good one, and I am sure CRT would find a reason why the brokers would-could not do this. It is something worth putting forward though, and I would fully support and push for it.

[Alan de Enfield]

The Trust also intends to provide feedback to new continuous cruisers during the first year of their licence, giving early warnings to boaters who are deemed to be staying within too narrow a geographical area to be considered compliant with their continuous cruising declaration. After the initial year is up, the Trust will advise new continuous cruisers who were found to be non-compliant during their first year that they must acquire a home mooring before their licence will be renewed at the end of its term.

 

 

Excellent - a 'provisional' licence - reviewed after 12 months.

[GUMPY]

Good idea means extra profit for CART if its done the same as car tax is now.

[Sabcat]

It'd work, all that's needed is for the places maps to be published and a boat logging system that's fit for purpose.

[Galeomma]

Is it really a huge problem or are we just thinking it is.

 

Unless you are going to live on a Tupperware boat you are still going to have to fork out north of 10 grand minimum and then all the extra costs involved. I don't know that many people who have that sort of money spare and those that I know wouldn't think of buying a boat.

[Starcoaster]

Lots of people do live in GRP boats, particularly in London. It is also not impossible to get a steel boat for under 10k.

 

When I lived in London, one of the flats I had there cost me £1,500 per month in rent. The fact that a boat that you can live on indefinitely can potentially be bought for a lot less than a year's rent that would otherwise be effectively p*ssed up the wall on accom is, I imagine, greatly appealing to many, and makes good financial sense on paper!

Edited October 8, 2014 by Starcoaster

[matty40s]

Matty, not sure if you're aware of CRT's recent scheme to attempt something roughly similar- I covered it for TT earlier in the year. CBA to look up the online version, but the relevant bits snipped from my original copy reads as follows:

 

 

I am fully aware of that initiative and the lack of forward progress.

Brokerages over the network(and I have contact with more than a few)| have NOT been informed or pushed into this initiative.

Therefore it is a great initiative, but useless.

Instead of letting people get away for 12 months and then say ....excuse me - by then unenforceable ...... get them to sign for the new licence on Day 1 of boat ownership and enforce as necessary.

Brokerages are coining it in in this market at the moment, making them responsible and possibly culpable for licence renewal may make them slightly more open when selling bargain basement boats with a nicholsons map of the routeto london attached to the front of the boat.

[Guest]

I am fully aware of that initiative and the lack of forward progress.

Brokerages over the network(and I have contact with more than a few)| have NOT been informed or pushed into this initiative.

Therefore it is a great initiative, but useless.

Instead of letting people get away for 12 months and then say ....excuse me - by then unenforceable ...... get them to sign for the new licence on Day 1 of boat ownership and enforce as necessary.

Brokerages are coining it in in this market at the moment, making them responsible and possibly culpable for licence renewal may make them slightly more open when selling bargain basement boats with a nicholsons map of the routeto london attached to the front of the boat.

It's not an issue for the seller as to what the buyer uses the boat for.

[Bee]

Yes, it is a fact, people are buying boats as a way to get their own home, I have two friends living in sheds (for 8 and 6 years respectively, so 'permanent') If you look closely in many cities there are old vans here and there that are lived in, and Google Earth will show a helluva lot of 'garages' that are, in fact, small houses. Our middle son went to Uni. in Bath and I considered a cheap boat for him to live on but I didn't want him to face the harassment that could have resulted so he paid a ridiculous amount of money for a damp and grotty bedsit. The point is that boats have been sold as 'liveaboard' for years and years and absolutely everybody knows that there are only a few hundred residential moorings to go round, It is an arithmetical problem with no solution and whatever CRT do they will not find a neat answer. Boats and people will carry on going round and round in pointless circles just so they can be logged with a different background.

[matty40s]

It's not an issue for the seller as to what the buyer uses the boat for.

However, if the licence to use the boat stops and starts at the sellers point of sale, then it should be.

 

How is CRT supposed to police the new CC'ers, if they have bought a boat from an elderly couple who have been in a marina for 27 years and relicenced the boat only a month before the sale.

They can't, the new owners have 11 months to do as they wish, and then relicence as they wish, by the time CRT monitors start tweeting, it will be over a year since they bought the boat, then they have 12 months "provisional" licence which has no legal authority.

 

What I am saying is licence ends with sale.

I am not saying anyone is right or wrong, just that maybe CRT needs to alter it's perspective.

 

 

and there are plenty of CRT people read this forum , even if they don't contribute.

 

Hi Richard.

[Guest]

However, if the licence to use the boat stops and starts at the sellers point of sale, then it should be.

 

How is CRT supposed to police the new CC'ers, if they have bought a boat from an elderly couple who have been in a marina for 27 years and relicenced the boat only a month before the sale.

They can't, the new owners have 11 months to do as they wish, and then relicence as they wish, by the time CRT monitors start tweeting, it will be over a year since they bought the boat, then they have 12 months "provisional" licence which has no legal authority.

 

What I am saying is licence ends with sale.I am not saying anyone is right or wrong, just that maybe CRT needs to alter it's perspective.

 

 

and there are plenty of CRT people read this forum , even if they don't contribute.

 

Hi Richard.

Personally I would just inform CRT I no longer own the boat using the change of ownership form, anything else beyond that is between the buyer and CRT,,and nowt to do with me.

[matty40s]

Personally I would just inform CRT I no longer own the boat using the change of ownership form, anything else beyond that is between the buyer and CRT,,and nowt to do with me.

I know Martin, and neither should the seller be put in any more work.Especially if it is sale after death or something.

 

The onus is on CRT, who are basically giving carteblanche to people to move on and move away at will....for months and even years.

Grab it at Day1 of ownership, maybe even give the brokerages a small discount on issued licences when they get the new owner to sign the documents.

This is not rocket science, obviously from starcoasters article, they were thinking almost along the same lines, but nowhere near they needed to be for it to be effective.

[Mike Tee]

It's not an issue for the seller as to what the buyer uses the boat for.

 

No, its not, but it is an issue of control. Right now, C&RT do not really have any control over what is happening. They are continually playing catch up and just reacting - sometimes to those who shout loudest.

I've read matty40s original post, and am not convinced this should be placed on the backs of the brokers, but there has to be some way of concentrating the mind of those who know nothing about boating, don't want to know, and look on it as a cheap(ish) way to live near where they work. These, I'm sure, are the ones causing the problem.

The DVLC have had an ongoing problem over the years with uninsured vehicles and seemed not to get a grip on it. With the powers the police have now, together with the database available to them on an immediate basis, cars are being seized and destroyed.

I'm not saying a similar system should be in place for those flaunting the (not really very clear) rules on cruising, but unless they simplify the whole system and get teeth they can really use, together with a practical, checkable data base, we will be having this discussion for years.

I wish I knew the answer. I do think it has to be financially based though.

 

 

[Guest]

I know Martin, and neither should the seller be put in any more work.Especially if it is sale after death or something.

 

The onus is on CRT, who are basically giving carteblanche to people to move on and move away at will....for months and even years.

Grab it at Day1 of ownership, maybe even give the brokerages a small discount on issued licences when they get the new owner to sign the documents.

This is not rocket science, obviously from starcoasters article, they were thinking almost along the same lines, but nowhere near they needed to be for it to be effective.

Sorry. I read your OP as placing an obligation upon the seller including the person brokering the sale.

 

There is an issue of personal responsibility on the part of the new owners though, its not ALL down to,CRT Is it? Or perhaps yes you are saying it is?

[Starcoaster]

 

I am fully aware of that initiative and the lack of forward progress.

Brokerages over the network(and I have contact with more than a few)| have NOT been informed or pushed into this initiative.

Therefore it is a great initiative, but useless.

Instead of letting people get away for 12 months and then say ....excuse me - by then unenforceable ...... get them to sign for the new licence on Day 1 of boat ownership and enforce as necessary.

Brokerages are coining it in in this market at the moment, making them responsible and possibly culpable for licence renewal may make them slightly more open when selling bargain basement boats with a nicholsons map of the routeto london attached to the front of the boat.

 

That's cool, I just wasn't sure if it was common knowledge, and haven't been back on to CRT or anyone else for feedback on how it has gone so far.

[matty40s]

Mike, why should it NOT be on the backs of the brokers.

They are the ones moving boats into a new sphere of ownership.

 

CRT licence needs renewing at sale.

Licencing Information needs to be passed on to new owners.

New licence needs to be signed for .

 

What is difficult about that?

Lots of marinas have the ability to sell short term and annual licences already, it isn't re-inventing the wheel.....although CRT will probably think it will.....

 

are you listening Richard...Parry.

[matty40s]

There is an issue of personal responsibility on the part of the new owners though, its not ALL down to,CRT Is it? Or perhaps yes you are saying it is?

No, there isn't, and that is CRT's responsibility and downfall.

I walk into Whilton tommow with a bag of cash and buy a boat with a licence that ran out 7 days ago . They will say nothing, maybe help me start the engine with a stock battery as the boat has been there for 12 months, but say. happy cruising matey.

The boat is unlicenced, once it exits their marina entrance.

[tillergirl]

When we bought our boat we had to to do exactly what Matty suggests as the previous owners had been paying on monthly DD for the licence and cancelled it at the point of sale. So we had to purchase a new licence as well as complete the change of ownership form and state our intentions. If and when we sell if we still have a trading licence its not transferable anyway. We had/have not had a problem with any of that. Just how it should be. Good idea Matty

Edited October 8, 2014 by tillergirl

[Wanted]

What am I missing? When I bought my boat I filled out the transfer form and got the seller to sign it as they were a bit useless..

On the form it asked if we wanted to transfer the licence and what our mooring or cruising intentions were. We filled in that we had a mooring, put the address in and they transferred.

 

Is that not the same?

[Ange]

Not sure about that Rob - when we bought our boat the broker did advise BW of the change of ownership, but we bought it with 4 months licence still in place. We didn't have to declare ourselves as ccers until we renewed the licence.

 

I think I know where Matty is coming from and agree - we should have had to state our intentions before we set off on our journey.

[Wanted]

I wonder if that is the problem. In theory it shouldn't matter if a licence is transferred or not because if details are collated consistently then it would in effect be the same.

I recon there are probably loads of different forms and interpretations within CRT. A reflection of the state of affairs?

[Ange]

Agreed - our first contact with BW was when we renewed our inherited licence - it sounds like it's different if you buy privately.

 

I'm wondering now what our broker (the now defunct Harralls) told BW ...

 

Interesting stuff