Tips for a Newbie

[strummerjoe]

Good evening everybody.

 

This is my first post here after joining so forgive me if my questions are a bit basic (or thick).

 

I am serious about moving on to the water to live. It is something I have been wanting to do for a long time as bricks and mortar are not really for me. However I am a complete novice when it comes to the world of canal boats. I have been on them and even stayed on one before but I have never been involved in owning one or knowing anyone who has. And so before I buy a boat which I have seen I have a few basic questions relating to making a leisure boat suitable for living aboard, and please forgive me if these questions have been answered a thousand times before.

 

And so in no particular order, if anyone could help me with these questions to start:

 

Survey: Not knowing much about boats I assume it would be sensible of me to have the boat surveyed first, can anybody give me a rough idea of costs involved? (I was chatting to another boat owner when I went to view it and he had worked on the boat and said it was in really good order mechanically,had low hours on the engine, had recently been blacked, and had a long safety certificate etc... Plus he said it was the same owners for 14 years and they looked after it really well and this is reflected by the overall decent condition the boat was in when i viewed it)

 

Electrics: The boat currently has a 12V system running the lights and a 12V fridge. As I have a small number of appliances which would require traditional mains sockets what would be the most cost effective solution to providing power for these?

 

Batteries: The boat has been up for sale for quite a long time (over 9 months i think) and the owner only comes out every now and again to turn over the engine and occasionally take her out. Is there a simple way to check the state of the batteries or would I need to rely on a full survey?

 

Hot Water: The hot water is currently supplied by this method: 'engine cooling water circuit is fitted to a vertical calorifier' - As i understand it I would need to run the engine every day for a couple of hours or so to provide hot water. What is the best/most cost effective alternative to this system so that I could have hot water without running the engine?

 

Heating: The boat currently has a solid fuel stove which is connected to two radiators for heating. Is this the most effective way of heating the boat or are there better alternatives?

 

These are the most basic questions I have at the moment and I would really appreciate any advice you all can give (after browsing the forum for a while I know that have more money is probably the most valuable advice).

 

Finally, my plan is to be as independent as possible which means not using a residential mooring and so having limited access to on-shore power so any advice on starting up, converting a leisure boat to a live aboard or any other general advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks for all your help

 

Dave

 

 

 

 

[John V]

Good evening Dave, welcome to the forum

 

Although I live aboard it's not on a narrowboat so a lot of my experience is atypical......however

 

Surveys. Unless you are very expert yourself it is wise to have a survey before purchase, it is also better (if possible) to go round with the surveyor as you will pick up a lot of information that he possibly would not be prepared to put in writing. I would also reccomend you ask on here if any one has a recommendation for a surveyor in your area

 

Solid fuel stoves are fairly generally accepted as being the best form of heating (always one or two with different opinions though) on my boat as well as heating radiators it also heats the hot water and I suspect this is pretty common.

 

On the rest I will keep quiet as there are many on here far more expert than me

 

Cheers John

[oarfish]

If you are not on a mooring, best give up on the idea of a fridge unless you like the sound of your generator / engine. Find out how old the batteries are, or get your surveyor to check them. Best to assume you will have to replace them in a year or so anyway. Does the boat already have an invertor or is it 12V only? Running domestic appliances needs posh electrics.

[strummerjoe]

Hi

 

Thanks for both of your replies.

 

With regards to the invertor, unless this was something standard to the boat when it was built then I am going to doubt that they have had one fitted as everything seems as it was originally. Though having just rechecked the advert it does say this: '12 volt lighting system in the accommodation, with sockets for re-charging devices' - though I suspect that these are still only the 12V sockets as i don't reacall seeing any of what i would call normal sockets on the boat. My feeling is that I would have to do something regards the electrics though I am not sure what that would be. Any tips would be great.

 

Cheers again

[ditchcrawler]

Hi

 

Thanks for both of your replies.

 

With regards to the invertor, unless this was something standard to the boat when it was built then I am going to doubt that they have had one fitted as everything seems as it was originally. Though having just rechecked the advert it does say this: '12 volt lighting system in the accommodation, with sockets for re-charging devices' - though I suspect that these are still only the 12V sockets as i don't reacall seeing any of what i would call normal sockets on the boat. My feeling is that I would have to do something regards the electrics though I am not sure what that would be. Any tips would be great.

 

Cheers again

I wouldn't rely on anyone telling you the batteries were good on just a survey. It takes time to test them properly. The idea that they are probably on their way out is best.

 

(I was chatting to another boat owner when I went to view it and he had worked on the boat and said it was in really good order mechanically,had low hours on the engine, had recently been blacked, and had a long safety certificate etc... Plus he said it was the same owners for 14 years and they looked after it really well and this is reflected by the overall decent condition the boat was in when i viewed it)

 

 

Thanks for all your help

 

Dave

 

 

 

 

If I was selling my boat I hope my mates would say its a good un.

[MtB]

The batteries will be shot whatever your surveyor might say, given the current owner's regime.

 

As Oarfish implies the harshest lesson any new CCing liveaboard learns is how to cope without using fridge in winter, or how to afford a HUGE battery bank and cope with the racket of a genny running at all possible hours you are present on the boat.

 

 

MtB

[Tom Richmond]

Hi Dave,

 

Never take anything for granted on a boat, and certainly never take anyone's word for it! (That being said, you should listen to everything everyone says, and take it all in balance...)

 

Survey: Get one. Unless you really know what you're talking about get a survey... Costs £250-£400, plus lifting the boat out of the water (£150-£300), but it's totally worth it. If there's nothing wrong with the boat then blamo, you have yourself a boat with full piece of mind, if there's lots wrong you got out only spending £700 or under. Anywhere in the middle and you can usually negotiate the price with the seller based on the results of the survey. As has been previously said it is worth getting a surveyor recommended; this forum is a very good place to start...

Electrics: You will need an inverter to provide you with 240v (normal in a house like) electrics. You can fit a fancy unit which may cost you up to £2k, and run cables throughout the boat to sockets wherever you want them. Or you can get a cheap simple unit from ebay for under £50, which can plug in to a 12v socket on the boat, but it will not be so powerful (or very good quality), it all depends what you want to run. Bear in mind that the inverter is still using the power from the batteries, and that it has an associated loss (they are generally 90-95% efficient). You can get 12v chargers for your phone and laptop, what other devices do you want to use? Anything with a high draw (hoover, hairdryer, toaster, kettle, heater, washing machine, power tools etc) is pretty much a no go for a boat, without a very serious battery bank, and the fancy inverter... The only things that you might want to get an inverter for are battery chargers for things like cameras, or battery powered tools, and these will run off of the cheapo ebay jobs.

Batteries: It has been said above. Assume the batteries are shot. New batteries are not expensive (in the grand scheme of things) I do not think you have told us how many or what capacity, but as a guide you can generally get a 110Ah battery (you probably have 2 or 3, you probably want 3 or 4) for under £100 each.

Hot Water: Calorifier from engine is a very normal and good way to get hot water. Your additional options are: a small on demand gas water heater, or plumb your solid fuel stove's heating circuit into the calorifier as well (it would need to be a twin coil calorifier, or you would need to replace it). You COULD get a solar water heater as well, but not sure that this is really a viable option...

Heating: Yes, your system is good. The other systems you could have are a gas boiler feeding the rads, or a diesel stove, which would create heat itself and heat the rads. Both use lots of fuel, are fraught with problems, and do not give you the lovely warm ambiance of a fire in your living space.

Extra advice: Get solar panels (before next summer at least) I spent £400 including delivery from Bimble, and got a 330w system which has kept me topped up from June until now. I don't cruise massive distances so have pretty much relied on them entirely!

Get some help servicing the engine so you know how to do it, but make sure you do it all yourself so you are not reliant on boatyards and mechanics (because when you really need 'em, they wont be there!)

If you have more questions do ask them, and maybe give us links or pictures so we can help further.

Best of luck!

[LoneWolf]

Hi

 

Thanks for both of your replies.

 

With regards to the invertor, unless this was something standard to the boat when it was built then I am going to doubt that they have had one fitted as everything seems as it was originally. Though having just rechecked the advert it does say this: '12 volt lighting system in the accommodation, with sockets for re-charging devices' - though I suspect that these are still only the 12V sockets as i don't reacall seeing any of what i would call normal sockets on the boat. My feeling is that I would have to do something regards the electrics though I am not sure what that would be. Any tips would be great.

 

Cheers again

 

you may not need an 'inbuilt' invertor, i get on fine with a little 250 watt from maplins to run the stuff i cant get a car charger for.

What kind of electric things do you want to run?

 

I wouldn't worry about the state of the batteries - you'll probably knacker them in the 1st year getting used to how much electric you use anyway

 

my advice would be get some solar as well

[strummerjoe]

Hi,

 

Again thanks everyone for taking the time to give me your advice, much appreciated.

 

Survey: I think this is a definite just need to look into local companies.

 

Electrics: With regards to the electrics I think that it would be better for me to simplify rather than spend money on an inverter and associated costs. I am sure that I can pretty much find a 12V charger for most of the things I want to bring with me (radio, laptop, etc...) though not sure how I will power my George Forman grill

 

However, I am wondering, for the long run, it may be better to get an inverter. This is because of where I am in the country. My boat will be on the Union Canal and there is a shortage of moorings here according to Scottish Canals. The boat is currently on a leisure mooring and I hope to remain there living aboard if I bought the boat until I was a bit more organised (my main concern here would be running the engine every evening on a leisure mooring and if this would get me in trouble). But sooner or later I think I would have to move to a residential mooring and as this will have onshore electrical supply then maybe I should look into a full 240V system as this would give me more flexibility?

 

As for solar panels I think this is a definite for me.

 

Batteries: Will put money aside for when they go.

 

Hot Water: Is plumbing the hot water into the solid fuel fire a simple or complicated job? As that sounds like a good option.

 

Thanks again folks.

[Tom Richmond]

Plumbing a back boiler into the fire is not simple, but is very achievable.

 

Get 12v stuff for everything you can, then if you are on a mooring with 240v hookup just connect a battery charger to your batteries. That way when you go our cruising everything will still work. As suggested above a small independent inverter might be the right thing for your needs. Maybe when you get on to your hook up you will have to live with a trailing extension lead through the boat for your george foreman...

 

I think it is very common practice for boaties to run engines on all sorts of moorings, if there isn't a hook up what other option do you have?

[rubblequeen]

HYot water I'd go or a LPG combi boiler so pleased with mine - so convenient

[strummerjoe]

Hi,

 

Rubblequeen: Which LPG boiler did you go for?

 

Tom: The problem I am faced with at the moment is that there are only a few boats for sale within travelling distance for me so I am limited in my choices, In addition, Scottish Canals have, in the words of boat owners I have spoken to, gone a bit crazy with their mooring policy. My local mooring point, and where I would want to be, is Ratho. They have just built a new marina there and I expect the berths to go on auction in the next few months. Though word of mouth is that the moorings will end up being quite expensive, the start price is £3500 and many expect them to average out around £5000. I am not sure of how accurate this is but there are 4 berths at Linlithgow which I was advised had a 'guide price' of £3500 so I expect the same if not more for Ratho due to its proximity to Edinburgh.

 

The upshot of all this is finances. I only have a certain amount of money to buy a boat and do any upgrades required. Factor in the rising costs of moorings and their limited availability then I have to be careful with what I buy. Hence my coming here for as much advice as possible.

 

To answer your question: i have just found out that, even though the owner of the boat I was looking at has just paid 12 months mooring, the mooring does not pass with the boat. So I spoke to Scottish Canals regarding what I would do if I bought the boat and they said that all they could do was send me a form to join the waiting list for their moorings or bid online for a marina berth (run by a seperate entity). So if i couldn't get the leisure mooring which has no hook up then I would probably have to go to a marina with all the mod cons of electric hook up, water, showers etc... I cannot see what other options I would have as the Union canal is too small to CC I think and I would need to be reasonably close to town for work etc...

 

I hope this all makes sense.

 

I think what I am looking for in general is what others would buy and fit with the benefit of experience?

 

Thanks again all.

[strummerjoe]

Hi

 

Just thought I would add this link: http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/feature.phtml?id=380216

 

Out fo the boats that I have been to see so far this was my favourite. As I said before there is a guy who works on most of the boats in the area and he has been positive about it from what he has seen (as someone rightly pointed out, he may be good friends with the owner so to be taken with a pinch of salt though I think he was being fairly honest as others vouched for him).

 

It is a fairly good size for me, though its biggest problem is that it seems to be too small for a lot of the berths available. For some reason maybe someone can explain to me, the berths at Linlithgow have a minimum length requirement of 16m and this one is only 14 or so.

 

As I have said, the exterior is in good order having recently been blacked and completely repainted. The interior is not as good though still looks really well for it age. It is the original fit out and is showing its age in places but this is fine for me as I would like to change it to my liking anyway. My only concern is that the chap said he had to reseal the windows as they were leaking and you can see the water damage around some of the frames (not sure how drastic this is?)

 

It is 17 years old and the current owners have had it for 14 of those years which I think is a positive. I got a lift with the women after the viewing and she was really nice, a 72 year old retired school teacher as is her husband. Which I also think is a positive thing though not sure why.

 

From my research of other boats in this range I think they are asking quite a lot of money for it. I would be really interested to hear what everyone thinks with regards to price based on what they can see in the advert.

 

Cheers

[bottle]

 

For some reason maybe someone can explain to me, the berths at Linlithgow have a minimum length requirement of 16m and this one is only 14 or so.

 

I haven't checked but you may have read this wrong and 16m is the length of the mooring pontoon, you may have to pay for the whole 16m but could put a 14m boat on it or if the boat was longer have a bit sticking out.

 

Berths are usually charged by length of boat but not always.

 

 

My only concern is that the chap said he had to reseal the windows as they were leaking and you can see the water damage around some of the frames (not sure how drastic this is?)

 

Might be nothing to worry about, if he noticed and remedied it quickly or the all the timber behind is rotten to the core and the insulation wrecked.

 

 

ps. some of the best con artists are the little old lady ex school teachers.

[Tuscan]

Instinct pays a big part in my view, but if the boat has just been repainted professionally (This will have cost £3-4k I expect )and the fact that it's been owned by the family for a long time are all good signs. You might pay a bit more but buying an older boat that has been well maintained and cared for is a good omen for the future in my view,

[john_r]

Regards the finances, don't forget you should always be planning to negotiate downwards from the asking price. That would place whatever you "got back" into the kitty for other things or maybe towards the first year mooring.

[strummerjoe]

HI

 

Thanks for the replies. With regards to the boat restrictions at Linlithgow, I got a pack from the Living on Water people and in the section regarding the moorings it said this:

 

Mooring No. Boat Length Min. Boat Length Max. Draft

1 16m 19m 1.02m

2 16m 19m 1.02m

3 16m 19m 1.02m

4 16m 19m 1.02m

 

I haven't contact them yet to comfirm whether the boat I am looking it is suitable or not but I don't think it relates to the payment as this is done on the auction system and, as far as I understand, is not based on the size of the boat. Again forgive me if I have picked up the wrong end of the stick on this one.

 

Cheers