HS2 and Fradley Junction

[Graham Davis]

. No I'm not missing anything our entire country's rail network is falling to bits not just a one hundred mile stretch, it will cut 20 minutes off the journey which will benefit a tiny percentage of rail users, were as fifty billion pounds could improve things for a far larger number of users if it was spent on the existing network and for graham can you explain were hs2 will benefit South wales and the valley,s you are not getting a massive addition to our rail infrastructure just one line between London and brum nothing more,it benefits firms from Europe getting to and from the mass cheap labour force that is the Midlands if you believe it is going to improve yours or my life in any way you are just fooling yourself

 

Tosh!! Do you work on the railway? The system is not "falling to bits" at all.

 

The problem is that at the moment the system north of London is running at much more than it's designed capacity and it is impossible to find paths for any more trains. Talk to my colleagues at the various signalling centres and boxes and ask them the problems they have everyday. The only way of finding more room is to build HS2 so that much of the long distance stuff can be moved onto there, leaving free paths on the old lines for more freight and more local trains.

 

I didn't say HS2 would help South Wales, I said that from the costs they are currently quoting for the electrification of the GWML and the Valleys Lines your figure for electrification of the whole of the UK is unreasonable.

[craftycarper]

Tosh!! Do you work on the railway? The system is not "falling to bits" at all.

 

The problem is that at the moment the system north of London is running at much more than it's designed capacity and it is impossible to find paths for any more trains. Talk to my colleagues at the various signalling centres and boxes and ask them the problems they have everyday. The only way of finding more room is to build HS2 so that much of the long distance stuff can be moved onto there, leaving free paths on the old lines for more freight and more local trains.

 

I didn't say HS2 would help South Wales, I said that from the costs they are currently quoting for the electrification of the GWML and the Valleys Lines your figure for electrification of the whole of the UK is unreasonable.

still only kidding yourself sorry

[Graham Davis]

So explain which bit I'm kidding myself about?

[craftycarper]

So explain which bit I'm kidding myself about?

. The bit were our national debt is spiralling out of control and we need a fifty billion pound white elephant to improve the lives of a tiny percentage of its inhabitants for a start

[MoominPapa]

The bit were our national debt is spiralling out of control and we need a fifty billion pound white elephant to improve the lives of a tiny percentage of its inhabitants for a start

It's at least arguable that paying for a useful, national, capital asset is what the national debt should be for. You're paying the interest on 50 bill, but you have a transport facility that allows the economy to produce more in return.

 

The problem with national debt comes when it's being racked up to eg pay the dole, or buy nuclear missiles, or fight foreign wars, none of which increase GDP.

 

MP.

[Graham Davis]

. The bit were our national debt is spiralling out of control and we need a fifty billion pound white elephant to improve the lives of a tiny percentage of its inhabitants for a start

 

So how do you suggest we improve the rail system to carry more passengers and freight, without spending any money?

[craftycarper]

So how do you suggest we improve the rail system to carry more passengers and freight, without spending any money?

. I know you and many others have been sold this 50 billion pound dream very cleverly without any kind of evidence that it will bring any improvement let alone some of the staggering claims being made , no one has said it can be done for nothing and as you are supporting the fifty billion pound spend then that's what we have in the pot,here is a tiny example , opposite my house is a railway line along with large depots were freight was moved in and out of avonmouth docks successfully for many years, today 90 percent of it is buried under miles of bramble bush,s and we have one line left open that runs through all this waste land carrying people from avonmouth to bristol and back if you opened the other one or two lines that are hidden in the bush,s you have doubled or trebled the carrying capacity of the line without anyone's house being knocked down or countryside lost and there are places like this the length and breadth of the country, its a very simple concept if you open your own eyes and stop spouting the drivel that's been sold to you by the people with everything to gain and nothing to lose from this crazy project, and I also feel that I have every right to feel this way as its me my children and grandchildren that will be left to pick up a bill we never asked for and don't benefit from, so though you and your train buddy,s may be guaranteed work for the rest of your life why should the rest of us pay for it

[Graham Davis]

Oh dear!

Yes I am supporting it, because there is no other way of increasing the line capacity north of London, other than by building a new railway. The current lines are running at over capacity and there is no physical room to widen them over much of the route. There are also no suitable closed routes that could be reopened. Even if there were there would be just as great a "nimby" response as there is to HS2. Currently there is a large growth in the use of the railways in this country, for leisure, for business and for freight and that has to be catered for.

 

I don't know where you live in Bristol, but the line from Avonmouth toward Filton Junction was rebuilt some years ago to take freight from the Docks and is widely used, plus they also reopened the line down the Avon Gorge to carry the freight from Portbury, largely coal to several power stations. They also now have plans to reopen to Clevedon as a passenger line. Physically it would be impossible to double the Portbury route due to the tunnels on the south side of the Gorge.

 

And no, I am not "guaranteed work for the rest of my life"! Quite the opposite in fact. As a signalman in a mechanical signal box I can expect to be made redundant in the next 2 years, when the control of my line is transferred to the electronic signalling centre in Cardiff, 90 miles away, with no possibility of me being transferred there or finding any comparable work locally. The same applies to at least 40 of my "train buddy's" in my area; we are all looking at the possibility of unemployment.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Graham Davis

[craftycarper]

Oh dear!

Yes I am supporting it, because there is no other way of increasing the line capacity north of London, other than by building a new railway. The current lines are running at over capacity and there is no physical room to widen them over much of the route. There are also no suitable closed routes that could be reopened. Even if there were there would be just as great a "nimby" response as there is to HS2. Currently there is a large growth in the use of the railways in this country, for leisure, for business and for freight and that has to be catered for.

 

I don't know where you live in Bristol, but the line from Avonmouth toward Filton Junction was rebuilt some years ago to take freight from the Docks and is widely used, plus they also reopened the line down the Avon Gorge to carry the freight from Portbury, largely coal to several power stations. They also now have plans to reopen to Clevedon as a passenger line. Physically it would be impossible to double the Portbury route due to the tunnels on the south side of the Gorge.

 

And no, I am not "guaranteed work for the rest of my life"! Quite the opposite in fact. As a signalman in a mechanical signal box I can expect to be made redundant in the next 2 years, when the control of my line is transferred to the electronic signalling centre in Cardiff, 90 miles away, with no possibility of me being transferred there or finding any comparable work locally. The same applies to at least 40 of my "train buddy's" in my area; we are all looking at the possibility of unemployment.

. Mate it's getting a bit boring now, if I look out of my front window I can see all those great improvements you are trying to claim but the truth I see with my own eyes is,nt quite like you describe it, the only bits of the line that have been put back into use are the bits for the benefit of the P,B,A a private company and of know real benefit to anyone else the clevdon line has been shelved and though the tunnel that side of the river may only have a single line the one this side of the river has at least two and room for more but only runs one it also joins the mainline at temple meads and they spent over a year blocking another tunnel through the gorge last year there are disused lines all around our country I have just given you one tiny example that is right outside my front window,anyone that boats on the K and A will probably have noticed the amount of disused lines that run along that and the list goes on.you are just preaching what you have been told without using your own mind and eyes to tell you it's a fallacy

[ditchcrawler]

I wonder what they said to Stephenson? Think of all the horse and carts you could buy for that and anyway, how many people want to travel to Darlington

[Graham Davis]

Well they told Brunel that people passing through Box Tunnel at more than 30mph would die, and now we pass through it at 3 times that!

 

The tunnel on the line under Clifton Downs, between Clifton Downs station to Avonmouth is single track, and has never been more than that. Yes there are lots of disused and closed lines across the country, many that were closed as uneconomical by Beeching, but in general the economic situation hasn't changed since that time, so they would still be uneconomic now. For example, why would you want to reopen the line that parallels the Coal Canal in Somerset when the coal mines in that area have been closed for years? Where there has been a proven economic need for lines to reopen then some have been, such as the line to Ebbw Vale in Gwent, the Vale of Glamorgan line between Barry and Bridgend, and the planned reopening of the Halton Curve on Merseyside.

 

I only work on the railway, so I obviously don't know what I'm talking about.

 

Oh, andI think the only closed tunnel on the Avon Gorge is on the old Clifton Rocks Railway, which they would like to re-open!

http://www.cliftonrocksrailway.org.uk/

 

EDIT.

Perhaps if you don't like the line out of Portbury, you would like the hundreds of 40 tonne lorry movements that would be required every day to get the coal from there to the power stations. In general 1 train out of there carries over 400 tonnes of coal, and there can be up to 4 a day just to 1 power station.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Graham Davis

[craftycarper]

Well they told Brunel that people passing through Box Tunnel at more than 30mph would die, and now we pass through it at 3 times that!

 

The tunnel on the line under Clifton Downs, between Clifton Downs station to Avonmouth is single track, and has never been more than that. Yes there are lots of disused and closed lines across the country, many that were closed as uneconomical by Beeching, but in general the economic situation hasn't changed since that time, so they would still be uneconomic now. For example, why would you want to reopen the line that parallels the Coal Canal in Somerset when the coal mines in that area have been closed for years? Where there has been a proven economic need for lines to reopen then some have been, such as the line to Ebbw Vale in Gwent, the Vale of Glamorgan line between Barry and Bridgend, and the planned reopening of the Halton Curve on Merseyside.

 

I only work on the railway, so I obviously don't know what I'm talking about.

 

Oh, andI think the only closed tunnel on the Avon Gorge is on the old Clifton Rocks Railway, which they would like to re-open!

http

EDIT.

Perhaps if you don't like the line out of Portbury, you would like the hundreds of 40 tonne lorry movements that would be required every day to get the coal from there to the power stations. In general 1 train out of there carries over 400 tonnes of coal, and there can be up to 4 a day just to 1 power station.

. For the benefit of one person the owner of the port and know one else, you still keep harping back to South Wales though it will gain not one jot of benefit from hs2 like 95 percent of the country, maybe you should be trying to improve the tunnel under the severn as this is the only way to improve the trains into South Wales or the bridge over the severn from sharpness that burnt down in the 60's but that would entail making your own mind up and not repeating unquestioningly what you are being told by your masters, there would probably be plenty of signalman jobs right outside my house but they pulled em all down when the tracks you claim are,nt there reverted to brambles, I live on the same road as the Clifton rock railway and don't need a link to tell me what they have been telling me for forty years and I,m sure it was,nt a figment of my imagination when bridge valley road was shut for over a year when they fill in the rail tunnel that went underneath it or when I used to play on the station behind my nan,s house and watch the trains coming and going on both sides not the single line that's left today so I will say it for one last time then I'm out hs2 is for the benefit of european firms looking for cheap labour in the north and not the rail using people of England and I'd rather my tax was spent on something more useful to a large number of people not just a select few

[Mike Todd]

Ramsgate to Nantwich £23.50.

 

Rugby to Ramsgate £16.

 

Both in the last month.

 

I couldn't do it in the car for that, or even half of that. If you can book a ticket 2-3 days ahead, online, then the train is the cheapest way to travel anywhere.

So how do I get from Cornwall to Wells by train? (A journey I have to do on Thursday)

[Guest]

So how do I get from Cornwall to Wells by train? (A journey I have to do on Thursday)

Southern Star has also forgotten that some people travel with family and friends so it may be a cheaper means of travel if you are a 'Billy no mates', however if you want to move five people longish distances the train is well beaten by the car, or indeed a coach not only in cost but in terms of convenience.

Edited October 5, 2014 by The Dog House

[Athy]

We already did have a high speed line between London and the north, yet thanks to short sightedness in the 1960's, the line was closed and ripped up.

The Great Central was a high speed line? Oh well, if they're going to use Director class 4-4-0s to haul HS2 trains, I might just warm to the plan.

many people are already denied the right to travel by rail by virtue of its prohibitive cost.

 

 

As passenger numbers appear to increase each year, it can't be as "prohibitive" as all that.

[Guest]

The Great Central was a high speed line? Oh well, if they're going to use Director class 4-4-0s to haul HS2 trains, I might just warm to the plan.

Presumably in its day it would have been regarded as such??

[Athy]

Presumably in its day it would have been regarded as such??

Well, the famous Railway Races to the North, which took place just before the Great Central was fully opened, were between the Midland and the LNWR, I am sure that Mr. Sprite will tell us more about the GC's speeds.

[Ray T]

Presumably in its day it would have been regarded as such??

 

IMHO not quite so sure.

 

 

But beautiful loco's never the less

 

http://www.lner.info/locos/D/d11.shtml

Edited October 5, 2014 by Ray T

[Graham Davis]

I have never said that HS2 would benefit South Wales!

I mentioned the lines in South Wales that opened because you commented that no lines have been reopened.

 

The Sharpness Bridge didn't not burn down, it was demolished after being hit by 2 fuel barges that caught fire, and the rebuilding of it was found to be uneconomical since very few trains were then using it anyway. It was single track with a severe weight restriction.

 

Bridge Valley Rd was closed in 2011 and 12 to strengthen a retaining wall:

http://www.betterbybike.info/bridge-valley-road-temporarily-closed-to-cyclists

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-14992565

Nothing to do with the railway!

The only tunnel that it seems to have possibly affected was that of the Deep Shelter/Clifton Rocks Railway.

 

Whilst you might not like the fact that BPA use the railway to get the coal out of Portbury, would you prefer approaching 100 lorry movements per train load instead, causing greater environmental and social damage?

 

Whilst I fully appreciate your views you really need to do some research first.

 

EDIT.

And why the hell should I believe my "Masters" when they are making me redundant? That is quite insulting.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Graham Davis

[John V]

Southern Star has also forgotten that some people travel with family and friends so it may be a cheaper means of travel if you are a 'Billy no mates', however if you want to move five people longish distances the train is well beaten by the car, or indeed a coach not only in cost but in terms of convenience.

 

 

Martin you must be joking.......have you tried long distance coach travel...say London/Aberdeen.....I would rather............................

............I can't actually think of anything I wouldn't rather do!!!!!

Edited October 5, 2014 by John V

[Guest]

Martin you must be joking.......have you tried long distance coach travel...say London/Aberdeen.....I would rather............................

............I can't actually think of anything I wouldn't rather do!!!!!

Sorry yes my convenience comment was primarily directed towards the the door to door convieience offered by travelling by car.

 

Coach travel however is on balance cheaper than rail, but in terms of inconvieience is sometimes as bad as travelling by rail.

Edited October 5, 2014 by The Dog House

[boathunter]

How on earth did we manage without all this rushing about?

The solution is to not travel as much. The potential to commute long distances has distorted both the housing and jobs market. Add to that it now often takes 2 incomes to buy one.

 

In my neck of the woods, people who can't afford to buy a house in London commute to work in London.

Then people who can't afford to buy a house in Cambridge commute from Ely

People who can't afford to buy in Ely commute from the surrounding villages.

 

Whether house prices are too high or wages too low is open to debate, but treating the symptoms with HS2 isn't going to help.

HS2 far from helping the north will merely provide more commuting possibilities for people working in London and more holiday opportunities for the wealthy. How annoying it must be that it takes so long to get from the city to ones Lake District weekend cottage.

[Southern Star]

Southern Star has also forgotten that some people travel with family and friends so it may be a cheaper means of travel if you are a 'Billy no mates', however if you want to move five people longish distances the train is well beaten by the car, or indeed a coach not only in cost but in terms of convenience.

For four or five people it possibly is, although you seem to be taking in to consideration just the cost of the fuel and not the total cost of car ownership. I make frequent journeys by car too though, 350 miles since yesterday morning for example, but that does not alter the fact that railway travel need not be exorbitantly expensive if a ticket is booked a few days in advance.

 

As for how to get from Cornwall to Wells, I really don't know. Cornwall is a fairly large place- I am in Cornwall nearly every week- but the fact that two random places may not be easy to travel between by train is neither an argument against HS2 nor an argument that rail travel is too expensive.

[Paul G2]

hs2 is for the benefit of european firms looking for cheap labour in the north and not the rail using people of England and I'd rather my tax was spent on something more useful to a large number of people not just a select few

 

This is a real question because I don't know the answer. Are you saying that HS2 is for the benefit of companies that want to make things using factories in England and then export those things to Europe?

 

If that's the case, how can that be bad? Increasing your manufacturing base will be good for the entire country, not just for the companies doing the manufacturing. People with jobs not only pay taxes, they are less of a burden on government resources. Freeing up government resources in the north would mean that there are more resources to use in other parts of the country.

[micky1010]

I don't understand the purpose of this link that the CRT have managed to be moved away from Woodend lock, it Is a link between the HS2 and the existing mainline railway joining near Handsacre. What is this for? HS2 trains will not be able to travel on the old mainline as the tracks are not designed for the high speed trains and supposedly the line is at capacity already, existing intercity trains will not be able to travel on the HS2 line as they would slow down the entire line so why is this link needed at all, why not just terminate HS2 phase one at Streethay instead of linking it onto the current midland mainlie and then if they go ahead and build phase two it can go down the proposed new line to Manchester which is further north than this link.