Advice please, my instinct is to walk away

[David Mack]

Here's the relevant section from the survey.

 

 

A Hull sides: Originally fabricated from nominal 5mm steel plate to an adequate standard. The sides have been overplated with nominal 4mm & 5mm steel plate to a poor standard, as multiple sections have been used, and the butt welds have been poorly applied. Ultrasonic measurements were taken with a Tritex 5500 triple echo meter with a 13mm probe. The side plates had a covering of marine growth and were not pressure washed prior to inspection. Approximately thirty sample areas were selected at random and prepared for inspection. From the sample areas selected, ultrasonic measurements show the plate thickness to be between 2mm and 5mm, which are not within acceptable limits. Light pitting corrosion is present and the maximum pit depth measured was approx. 0.8mm. The hull blacking is in a serviceable condition. Rec 1: Overplate the sides with 5mm steel

No this is the sides up to the waterline the base plate is fine 5.8mm mostly

 

 

Given that survey report, the only sensible solution for this boat is to remove all the existing overplating and then to overplate it again (doing the job properly this time). That way you get rid of all the bodgery, and potentially have a boat as good as any other that has been overplated.

 

Depending on what the boat has in terms of insulation and fitout, you may or may not have to also do quite a lot of ripping out and refitting internally.

 

This will all cost, and unless you get the boat at a good enough price, and are prepared to put up with the hassle and delay while the work is done, then its probably better to walk away.

[muddywaters]

Okay, then. There is a Springer owners' group on Facebook if you need any advice after looking at one. I'm happy with mine, and planning some work replacing the current inadequate, non-standard, engine cooling system later this year as soon as I can get a slot at the boatyard.

Dan Brown being talked about on another thread (the narrow boat lad) has been having problems with his cooling system on his springer as well

[Alan de Enfield]

Here's the relevant section from the survey.

 

 

A Hull sides: Originally fabricated from nominal 5mm steel plate to an adequate standard. The sides have been overplated with nominal 4mm & 5mm steel plate to a poor standard, as multiple sections have been used, and the butt welds have been poorly applied. Ultrasonic measurements were taken with a Tritex 5500 triple echo meter with a 13mm probe. The side plates had a covering of marine growth and were not pressure washed prior to inspection. Approximately thirty sample areas were selected at random and prepared for inspection. From the sample areas selected, ultrasonic measurements show the plate thickness to be between 2mm and 5mm, which are not within acceptable limits. Light pitting corrosion is present and the maximum pit depth measured was approx. 0.8mm. The hull blacking is in a serviceable condition. Rec 1: Overplate the sides with 5mm steel

No this is the sides up to the waterline the base plate is fine 5.8mm mostly

 

I know its not unusual but I'm a bit at a 'loss'

 

1) Hull sides originally fabricated with 5mm steel

2) Overplated with 4mm to 5mm steel

3) Plate thickness of sides now down to 2mm in places

4) Pits to 0.80mm deep

 

If a pit and the thin areas align there is 1.2 mm of metal.

 

Where on earth has it been for the overplating erode by 3mm (5mm down to 2mm) ?

How long ago was it overplated ?

 

I cannot see that there is any thinking to do ?

[Grace and Favour]

OP - I would walk.

 

There are SO many boats out there, and most of them are in a better condition than a bodged overplate!

[MtB]

Never mind getting as reduction to cover the cost of remedial work, I'd not buy it at any price.

 

Reading between the lines I think the surveyor's opinion is the overplating leaks like a sieve and the water getting behind it has rusted the overplating from the inside out. Definitely one to avoid!!

 

MtB

[RLWP]

No not going to walk, I'm already running lol

 

I think you have made the right decision

 

Richard

[muddywaters]

Well TBH I knew what I was going to do, just wanted to get it confirmed I was right from the best place for boating advice really.

If anything this thread will at least show the importance of getting a survey in the first place.

A few lately have been saying getting a survey is a waste of time, think this thread proves that to be wrong if nothing else.

And the funny thing is I actually went against advice given on this forum and went with a surveyor recommended by the broker

[Grace and Favour]

And next time - maybe if you ask on here about the choices of surveyor (operating in wherever your next boat may be) you will most likely get some seriously good advice on whom is best in that area.

 

Some brokers use their 'favourite' surveyors for their own reasons.

[alan_fincher]

On the basis of the surveyors report, definitely a "not at any price" in my view.

 

But you seem to have been persuaded that already.

 

There's nothing wrong with a good over-plating job, in my opinion, but that very clearly is not what you are looking at here!

[paulstoke1975]

Follow your instinct , losing a grand now is better than buying a potential wreck ,

 

Cut your loses and walk

[John Williamson 1955]

Dan Brown being talked about on another thread (the narrow boat lad) has been having problems with his cooling system on his springer as well

I'm planning to sort mine out by installing a skin tank or two, as the current system is a Bedford CF radiator and radiator fan trying pull enough air through a hole which is rather too small, and can't be enlarged as it's already uncomfortably close to the waterline. I've tried installing another fan to extract the hot air from the engine 'ole, but it doesn't help much if at all. The boat's coming out for blacking soon, so I'll get it done then.

[craftycarper]

I'm planning to sort mine out by installing a skin tank or two, as the current system is a Bedford CF radiator and radiator fan trying pull enough air through a hole which is rather too small, and can't be enlarged as it's already uncomfortably close to the waterline. I've tried installing another fan to extract the hot air from the engine 'ole, but it doesn't help much if at all. The boat's coming out for blacking soon, so I'll get it done then.

. There is a liquid that has become popular in racing cars and the like that you use instead of water in the radiator it does not freeze or overheat I'm sorry I can't add links or stuff like that or remember the name of it but I'm sure a bit of google searching and you will find it ,may save you a lot of work if it's any good

. There is a liquid that has become popular in racing cars and the like that you use instead of water in the radiator it does not freeze or overheat I'm sorry I can't add links or stuff like that or remember the name of it but I'm sure a bit of google searching and you will find it ,may save you a lot of work if it's any good

. Just had a quick google myself and found Evans waterless coolant on eBay

[Southern Star]

.

. Just had a quick google myself and found Evans waterless coolant on eBay

Bloody hell, £65 for 5 litres?

 

In the truck I use Coolelf Supra, which is Renault's recommended coolant, I thought that was bad at £2 a litre.

 

Never, ever mix different colours of coolant though, particularly not blue/ greens with red/orange/pinks.

[blackrose]

Walk away, why take on someone else's problem?

 

I speak as someone who was once in exactly the same situation and didn't walk but should have.

Edited September 10, 2014 by blackrose

[kevinl]

From the initial thicknesses quoted, is this a Springer? Nothing wrong with them as a class, but they were cheap and cheerful boats to start with and a lot of boatyards aren't keen to work on them, so will mark up their prices a bit if you ask for a quote.

Awesome, it got to post 22 before someone thinks because it sound like knackered it's a Springer, possibly you guys are getting the idea one of the biggest brands on the cut aren't all some of you crap (sic) them up to be. Not you personally John you went on to be reasonable about them.

K

[blackrose]

Awesome, it got to post 22 before someone thinks because it sound like knackered it's a Springer, possibly you guys are getting the idea one of the biggest brands on the cut aren't all some of you crap (sic) them up to be. Not you personally John you went on to be reasonable about them.

K

 

I think most of us know plenty about Springers, especially those of use who have owned them. People aren't saying walk away because it's a Springer, they're saying it because the hull is in poor condition and the previous remedial work has been botched.

Edited September 10, 2014 by blackrose

[MtB]

Awesome, it got to post 22 before someone thinks because it sound like knackered it's a Springer, possibly you guys are getting the idea one of the biggest brands on the cut aren't all some of you crap (sic) them up to be. Not you personally John you went on to be reasonable about them.

K

 

That's strange. I don't see any of that in the post you quoted.

 

John Williamson said it sounds like a Springer from the original steel thicknesses quoted, then went on to comment there is nothing wrong with Springers as a class of boat!

 

MtB

[Alan de Enfield]

. There is a liquid that has become popular in racing cars and the like that you use instead of water in the radiator it does not freeze or overheat I'm sorry I can't add links or stuff like that or remember the name of it but I'm sure a bit of google searching and you will find it ,may save you a lot of work if it's any good

. Just had a quick google myself and found Evans waterless coolant on eBay

 

This stuff was discussed on a thread some time ago - yes it works, in that the engine doesn 'boil-up', but by allowing the engine to run at much higher temperatures than it was designed for other components start to fail due to the increased temperatures.

[Pykebird]

Having had issues with a boat being badly overplaited, I think you are making the right choice.

Its a shame that a fairly reputable hull has be botched in this way, but there are welders and welders!

Good luck with your search

[Robbo]

Just been reading through my survey on the boat.

Although it has been over plated the sides below the waterline are 2.5mm in places.

Question is do I try to get a chunk knocked off the price to get it done or walk away, as I say in the thread title my instinct is to walk away.

 

 

As guessing your taken the above advice on walking (in fact running). I would recommend on the next boat survey you be there in person as well if you wasn't for this one - a paper survey is good, but talking to the surveyor is more important and very valuable.

 

This stuff was discussed on a thread some time ago - yes it works, in that the engine doesn 'boil-up', but by allowing the engine to run at much higher temperatures than it was designed for other components start to fail due to the increased temperatures.

 

I thought the idea was that it could work at lower pressures but at the same temperature range as at a higher pressure. Therefore removing and releasing heat quicker at a particular pressure, so the temperature of the engine isn't any different to a system with a adequate system.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Robbo

[MtB]

 

As guessing your taken the above advice on walking (in fact running). I would recommend on the next boat survey you be there in person as well if you wasn't for this one - a paper survey is good, but talking to the surveyor is more important and very valuable.

 

Good advice, if only because had you been there the surveyor would have immediately noticed the awful welding and you and he (or she) might jointly have decided at that point to abandon the full survey.

 

As it is, you seem to have paid out for a load of surveying and inspection work you didn't need. Next time around may I suggest agreeing a hull survey first, progressing to full survey only if hull survey results are good?

 

 

MtB

[John Williamson 1955]

. There is a liquid that has become popular in racing cars and the like that you use instead of water in the radiator it does not freeze or overheat I'm sorry I can't add links or stuff like that or remember the name of it but I'm sure a bit of google searching and you will find it ,may save you a lot of work if it's any good

. Just had a quick google myself and found Evans waterless coolant on eBay

It's handy for a minor problem, with a short term overload, but my engine overheats at anything more than 1100 rpm, which gives me about 2.5mph on deep water. I need to get rid of about 4 times the heat, which is going to need major surgery. The skin tank is a proven method of solving the problem, and will let me use the engine flat out on a continuous basis, say in a river or the tidal Thames, while getting rid of the air vent into the engine 'ole.

 

Nice idea, though. Some bus companies are using it with good results.

[John Williamson 1955]

Awesome, it got to post 22 before someone thinks because it sound like knackered it's a Springer, possibly you guys are getting the idea one of the biggest brands on the cut aren't all some of you crap (sic) them up to be. Not you personally John you went on to be reasonable about them.

 

That's because one is currently keeping me dry, comfortable and warm, and since 1969 (Her alleged build date), the steel has gone from the original 5.5mm to between 4.8 and 4.6mm with about 2.2mm pitting in places. Plans are in place to sort this out, but in the meantime, she's going to be blacked every year to slow the rot down. I'm looking at the possibility of getting the pits filled with weld, or re-plating rather than overplating. It depends on the cost and how rich I feel in a couple of years.

[Athy]

That's because one is currently keeping me dry, comfortable and warm, and since 1969 (Her alleged build date), the steel has gone from the original 5.5mm to between 4.8 and 4.6mm with about 2.2mm pitting in places. Plans are in place to sort this out, but in the meantime, she's going to be blacked every year to slow the rot down. I'm looking at the possibility of getting the pits filled with weld, or re-plating rather than overplating. It depends on the cost and how rich I feel in a couple of years.

She must be one of the very first to leave the factory if that date is correct, and thus historically significant. Perhaps you should enter her in a few historic boat events!

[John Williamson 1955]

She must be one of the very first to leave the factory if that date is correct, and thus historically significant. Perhaps you should enter her in a few historic boat events!

I've been trying to work out her build date since i bought her, but as she's got a shiny new steel cabin, and is on at least her third engine....

 

The earliest boats had wooden cabins, which mostly rotted beyond recovery a long time ago, and it's been mentioned as a possibility that at least one third party builder bought section from Springers and built boats using them. It would have been nice if early boats had had serial numbers or even names clearly marked somewhere.

 

The closest type I can find to what is there now is what Springer called the "Tug" hull in a brochure I've seen, but I can't find anything to help any more with the date. I was just going by what the broker had her down as, and the surveyor didn't confirm or deny that date.

 

She seems to have had an eventful life.

 

If anyone's in the area, I'll be heading for the Slough canal Festival at some point this weekend, weeds, carrier bags and motor bike permitting.

Edited September 11, 2014 by John Williamson 1955