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Probably stupid questions about Narrowboat heating, boilers etc


glitterhotdog

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Hello there,

 

Sorry for starting a probably well thrashed-out and potentially very stupid post, but after reading this forum and googling in general for an embarrassingly long time without gaining an understanding of what will do the trick, I'm still scratching my head.

 

I'm doing up a 45footer and I'm after a system that will provide hot water for bath/shower, taps, a couple of little radiators for chilly mornings. I've got a little multifuel stove for heating on really cold days, and I have a morco d61 which I haven't fitted yet because I've realised I won't be able to run any radiators off it (useless, I know).

 

I'm hoping to get a combi boiler of some sort, but the only ones mentioned on here are Alde, which appear to be in the over-a-grand cost region, which is a bit of an issue....but could be managed with a bit of saving. Would any other kind of combi boiler do, would I need anything else with it, or would a tank > pump > boiler > taps/radiators setup be functional?

 

I've read some of the really useful guides on boat heating and water systems and I'm really impressed, I know a lot more than I did but I'm still wondering if there's a reason why you can't just buy an lpg boiler like this: http://www.mrcentralheating.co.uk/Heatline-CaprizPlus-24KW-Combi-Boiler-and-Fernox-Installers-Pack?gclid=Cj0KEQjw6pGfBRD09M-TmYTBzqIBEiQAcRzH5xtPIk5-EU3__2QYKdILCB5vKBf-3YkP9BYH3YKQ08kaApF78P8HAQ&

 

Many thanks for your help all, and sorry again for starting a new topic on this.

 

 

Lucy =^_^=

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Hello there,

 

Sorry for starting a probably well thrashed-out and potentially very stupid post, but after reading this forum and googling in general for an embarrassingly long time without gaining an understanding of what will do the trick, I'm still scratching my head.

 

I'm doing up a 45footer and I'm after a system that will provide hot water for bath/shower, taps, a couple of little radiators for chilly mornings. I've got a little multifuel stove for heating on really cold days, and I have a morco d61 which I haven't fitted yet because I've realised I won't be able to run any radiators off it (useless, I know).

 

I'm hoping to get a combi boiler of some sort, but the only ones mentioned on here are Alde, which appear to be in the over-a-grand cost region, which is a bit of an issue....but could be managed with a bit of saving. Would any other kind of combi boiler do, would I need anything else with it, or would a tank > pump > boiler > taps/radiators setup be functional?

 

Lucy =happy.png=

 

Alde is a gas combi boiler, I'm surprised that you missed that you can buy a diesel combi boiler too. The 3 big names are Eberspacher, Mikuni and Webasto. Eber seem to have a poor reputation for reliability with many reports of them going wrong over time, hence many threads on them on this forum and personally I'd try to avoid. Mikuni and Webasto seem trouble-free, therefore don't come up that often in technical help threads. Unfortunately they all cost quite a bit of money.

 

The reason you can't use a house boiler like the one you linked to is that a) it is designed for a much higher heat output, to reflect the floor area/volume of a house, which will be many times that of a typical canal boat; B) LPG and natural gas are slightly different, and would need different burners (well they do in cookers), I doubt if LPG burners are readily available for home boilers; c) the flue arrangement on a home boiler is probably incompatible with a narrowboat or widebeam bodyshell; or canal features such as low bridges, etc d) it would take up quite a lot of space in a boat.

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A pity you didn't ask before buying your fire as you can get them with back boilers which can give you hot water and radiators also you can usually connect into the engine cooling system for water heating.

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Hi

 

Don t dismiss that Morco so quickly . Lots of boats have them & theyre likely to be trouble free once fitted . Yourboats at the stage where getting a morco , gas pipework & plumbing will be pretty straightforward . Instant hot water for showers & washing up . I m looking to get one retro fitted onto my boat & irs a PITA .

Also , as stated above a backboiler system from your stove can provide hot water too so you have options & a " belts & braces " approach means you have options to choose from . At this stage in your refurb you may well be anle to design a gravity fed system which if done correctly should also enable trouble free heating & hot water . You can also get hot water from running your engine of course whilst cruising .

Eberspachers ...... a favourite subject of mine . I use one cos it was on the boat when i bought it but didnt work & ive spent countless hours fixing it with help from many kindly folk on this forum . Its working fine now but i wouldn t pay to have one installed from scratch as they cost £££ to buy & £££ to service / repair unless you pull it to bits yourself .

Personally , if i could , id have a Morco & a gravity back boiler system as once fitted theyre likely to be trouble free & you re at a stage in your refurb when you can do it with the least disruption .

Just my thoughts ....

 

cheers

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Depending on usage you need to factor in running costs of different systems and the payback on expensive installations. If you run a diesel heater using in the order of 0.8 lt per hour then that's about 65p depending on where you buy your diesel. That can be a significant cost during the winter months. Advantage of diesel or LPG heating is, if you need just a quick burst of heat for the odd chilly evening in spring and autumn and for instant hot water.

Many combinations that you need to match against your own type of usage.

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A pity you didn't ask before buying your fire as you can get them with back boilers which can give you hot water and radiators also you can usually connect into the engine cooling system for water heating.

The fire came with the boat or I would have done :)

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Thank you so much for your suggestions, I think I get it now!

I also found this. (Might be useful for someone else if searching for info)

Q & A

 

Heating/hot water

 

Hi

Are there any rules or regulations or reasons why I can not fit a small LPG domestic combi boiler in my narrow boat. David

 

Asked by: David Anderson | 1.27pm, Thursday 16 June

 

WW says:

 

In principle, there is no reason that you cannot instal a combi boiler, provider the manufacturer has warrantied it for installed on marine craft. If they do not allow it to be installed and will not warranty the boiler, then it is not type approved and cannot be installed. Some manufacturers will, but most won't.

You also need to be able to safely accomodate the flue- you must use the manufacturers fitting and terminal ends- and also the maximum (and more importantly, minimum) lengths of flue- which can be difficult to fit in a boat.

If the boiler is not room-sealed (as some models aren't) then installation is much more difficult- read the BSS guide. To pass the flue spillage test, may require a much longer flue than can be accomodated. A room sealed unit would not have those issues.

Also, the gas input loading would mean that, to avoid pressure drop, you would have to fit a sizeable diameter pipework to the boiler- and the marine GasSafe engineer that you use to fit such a boiler should be able to advise.

However, even the smallest domestic combi unit is vastly overpowered for use on a narrowboat- a narrowboat needs a maximum of around 5KW to heat it- and actually a lot less- around 2.8KW constantly for a 60ft narrowboat, maintaining an interior temprature of 21dec C when its -1C outside...

This means that the boiler will be constantly cycling- which doesn't do it much good, as it will be lighting, burning and shutting down within a very short time.

Also, it would require a constant pure sine wave 230V supply operating- and the consumption when pumping on heating cycle is quite high, compared to a extra-low voltage (12 or 24 V) diesel heating system, for example. This would mean a landline or inverter running constantly.

So, you might be able to fit one, given the above constraints- but think why they are almost unheard of on boats- if they were easy, simple and effective, they would be far more utilised. I have come across two boats (one narrow, one widebeam) with them fitted and the owners were not happy with them on both occasions- it had cost them a lot to maintain (due to the short-cycling)- one was planning to remove and fit a smaller caravan/marine LPG burner unit.

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Depending on usage you need to factor in running costs of different systems and the payback on expensive installations. If you run a diesel heater using in the order of 0.8 lt per hour then that's about 65p depending on where you buy your diesel. That can be a significant cost during the winter months. Advantage of diesel or LPG heating is, if you need just a quick burst of heat for the odd chilly evening in spring and autumn and for instant hot water.

Many combinations that you need to match against your own type of usage.

I'm thinking the best option for me would be to swap my morco water heater for a morco combi boiler. I did look at the diesel ones but I'm just not there yet on savings, and won't be til after I move on as I'm paying two rents and there's a lot of materials costs going on every month.

Has anyone got one of these? Good?

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Last time I looked bottled LPG worked out at least as expensive as mains eleccy, and coal works out about 3x as cheap.

 

So I think the majority of off-grid liveboards rely mostly on a solid fuel stove, possibly with backboiler, with something like a Morco D61 for showers etc, or even the dreaded diesel heater as well (or instead!). Some stoves can be retrofitted with a backboiler, though a 45'er may heat OK from a single stove.

 

Maybe try a winter with the stove and Morco, save up in the mean time, then take it from there...?

 

ETA: For taking the chill off the bedroom end in the mornings, maybe consider a blown air diesel heater, seem to be more reliable than the water heating ones, plus reasonable second hand ones sometimes turn up at good prices on Ebay.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited by smileypete
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As no-one has pointed it out yet, the Big Problems with gas combi boilers on boats are:

 

1) The flue sticks out and will eventually get smashed off passing through a tight bridge hole.

2) The gas consumption will bleed your wallet dry if you use it for heating

3) They all need 240v mains leccy, which means running an inverter 24/7 which in turn, requires a fairly hefty (i.e. expensive) battery bank and charging system

 

These are the reasons almost nobody uses combis in narrawboats.

 

 

MtB

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If you have a tight budget and want hot water and heating here is how I would do it (with a air cooled engine).

 

Soild fuel stove with gravity fed radiators.

Gas hot water heater for shower and taps.

 

For those chilly evenings I would use one of those fire logs that give of instant heat mainly cause they quick and easy to light.

 

In the future a diesel hot air blower may be a option (second hand or reconditioned ones are fairly reasonable).

 

Another option for instant heat for getting the chill off is a paraffin heater. I use one of these for winter as I have no stove (also refitting out) and i get premium paraffin for 99p a litre for Otley.

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Lucy,

 

Lots of good advice here, but you are perhaps not getting the full picture.

 

You have 2 needs - to heat water and to heat space

 

And your possible fuels are gas, diesel and solid fuel. I have not included electricity as it is only a practical when you are on a mooring with electric hookup.

 

Solid fuel will run a stove. With a back boiler you can also run radiators and heat water. It is the cheapest way of heating the boat, but not the cleanest. A good stove will stay in overnight or while you are out during the day, but others will not.

 

Diesel heaters are either the webasto/mikuni/eberspacher type, which need an electric supply, and which heat water for radiators and the calorifier (although you can also get blown air diesel heaters), and would usually sit in your engine space, or the refleks stove type which are non electric, gravity fed, and usually located in your living space. These do not heat water.

 

Alde boilers do the same job as the webasto/mikuni/eberspacher type, but run on gas. These are more expensive to run than the diesel equivalent.

 

For water heating you either have a morco-type instantaeous heater (gas), or you fit a calorifier. This is just the boaty name for the equivalent of the hot water cylinder you have in a house. The calorifier will have one or more coils in it through which you pass hot water from a diesel heater, solid fuel stove back boiler and/or from your engine. It may also be fitted with an immersion heater so that you can heat water from a shore electricity supply, or a suitable generator.

 

Some have fitted both a calorifier and a morco, with a 3 port valve to select between the 2 sources of hot water, so that you can use the engine-heated calorifier when on the move, and the morco when you are tied up.

 

Domestic (house) gas boilers are not appropriate on boats as they are generally too big, and need a mains electricity supply.

 

 

 

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Hi all, can I jump in on the back of this if you don't mind Lucy ?

David Mack has answered practically all of my queries on this subject in his last post and has confirmed my thoughts on systems I will include in my sail away next year ie Solid fuel stove with back boiler, Morco for the summer and Calorifier for cruising with as stated the 3 port valve. One question please where would be the best positioning of the Calorifier I'm guessing close to the engine but that may be some distance from the stove, would that cause a possible problem gravity wise ?

 

Thanks Alan

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Sure, Alan! Jump in :)

 

For Alde type boilers, are these morco ones also hot water and radiator types? http://www.morcoproducts.co.uk/stock-6-38/Combination_Boilers/GB30LPG.html

I'm particularly enamoured with this type for days when the fire isn't needed, but maybe a little blast of warm in the half hour before getting up, or a bit of heat while getting out of the shower are needed. I suffer from fibromyalgia and get a bit stiff if I can't warm up sometimes, but it eases off once I'm warm and dressed and moving about.

 

Going to definitely look into fitting a back boiler on my little stove, for hot water during the winter when the stove is running. Do I understand correctly, that to utilise engine heat, you need a calorifier? This is where the water is heated up? Same with the back boiler unless it's just in a sealed system going round radiators?

 

Thank you all so much for the advice, you're a great bunch. :)

 

Regards,

 

Lucy

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Sure, Alan! Jump in smile.png

 

For Alde type boilers, are these morco ones also hot water and radiator types? http://www.morcoproducts.co.uk/stock-6-38/Combination_Boilers/GB30LPG.html

I'm particularly enamoured with this type for days when the fire isn't needed, but maybe a little blast of warm in the half hour before getting up, or a bit of heat while getting out of the shower are needed. I suffer from fibromyalgia and get a bit stiff if I can't warm up sometimes, but it eases off once I'm warm and dressed and moving about.

 

Going to definitely look into fitting a back boiler on my little stove, for hot water during the winter when the stove is running. Do I understand correctly, that to utilise engine heat, you need a calorifier? This is where the water is heated up? Same with the back boiler unless it's just in a sealed system going round radiators?

 

 

What make/model stove do you have? I may have mistakenly read that you had a Lister air cooled engine, if so then you won't be able to really utilise the heat. If it's water cooled then yes you'll need a calorifier (think hot water tank). If you go down this route then I would go down a diesel boiler route to do hot water and rads (as well as from the stove).

 

If you want automated heat, then others will be able to recommend if the gas boilers can do it. To be honest I would go down the diesel route, and look at reconditioned ones (I will find a local link).

Edited by Robbo
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Another diesel heating option is a Lockgate reflex. I have one and it's very handy in that the heat is pretty quick and with a back boiler you do get hot water too ..... it's clean (only needs to be cleaned once a year or so) but it does suffer the same cost problems that all diesel stoves do

 

http://www.lockgate.com/

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I'll have to have a proper nosy at the stove, see if I can find any identifying features. :)

I've got a rubbish photo of it here but might not be much help: http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/76/d7/19/76d71990424ec9820c58310a14b6e0ea.jpg

 

I think it is air cooled yeah, so that's out. :)

Going to look into this diesel boiler situation. Links welcome.

Would there be a separate tank(calorifier) with a diesel or gas boiler(morco/Alde) either way?

 

Any further info about the gas boilers much appreciated.

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Hurricane heaters are also available, better for a live aboard than the three mentioned above but, they are expensive:

 

http://www.calcuttboats.com/hurricane.html

Ooh just had chance to have a proper look at this. This might be a sensible goal. :) a fairly high aim, but I've got a birthday coming up, I could have a collection to swell the coffers a bit. :P

As no-one has pointed it out yet, the Big Problems with gas combi boilers on boats are:

 

1) The flue sticks out and will eventually get smashed off passing through a tight bridge hole.

2) The gas consumption will bleed your wallet dry if you use it for heating

3) They all need 240v mains leccy, which means running an inverter 24/7 which in turn, requires a fairly hefty (i.e. expensive) battery bank and charging system

 

These are the reasons almost nobody uses combis in narrawboats.

 

 

MtB

Mike the boilerman,

 

Are you just talking about home boilers or does this include Alde and Morco combis? Thank you :)

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Ooh just had chance to have a proper look at this. This might be a sensible goal. smile.png a fairly high aim, but I've got a birthday coming up, I could have a collection to swell the coffers a bit. tongue.png

 

Mike the boilerman,

 

Are you just talking about home boilers or does this include Alde and Morco combis? Thank you smile.png

 

The Hurricane is the Rolls Royce of marine heaters and comes with a price to match, it's a pressure jet type which is better than the pre-heater types like Eberspacher. You can also get a drip-fed diesel boilers as well as stoves from the likes of Reflexs (http://www.lockgate.com/products/marinestoves/coldfurnace/), but these will need a calorifier for hot water, the plus point is that the don't require power, but will need lighting like a stove.

 

MTB would be talking about all type of gas boilers apart from number 3 (not sure about pure combis, but hotwater ones don't require power). The combi you linked to earlier is a 30kw one, which is very high for a boat.

Edited by Robbo
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Hi all, can I jump in on the back of this if you don't mind Lucy ?

David Mack has answered practically all of my queries on this subject in his last post and has confirmed my thoughts on systems I will include in my sail away next year ie Solid fuel stove with back boiler, Morco for the summer and Calorifier for cruising with as stated the 3 port valve. One question please where would be the best positioning of the Calorifier I'm guessing close to the engine but that may be some distance from the stove, would that cause a possible problem gravity wise ?

 

Thanks Alan

 

Usually the calorifier would be within the insulated cabin to help protect it from frost, beyond that where ever is convenient.

 

Having the calorifier fed by thermosyphon from the backboiler can be tricky to say the least, unless it can be quite near with the coil above the backboiler. Most installs have it on a small pump, they can be had from about £20 these days whereas wide bore copper pipe does not come cheap. ohmy.png

 

There's a bit more on backboiler systems on this recent topic which may be of help:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=68871

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited by smileypete
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Hi,

We live aboard and our Webasto is now 6 years old and heats hot water and rads, we also run it on kerro as this is a lot "cleaner" than red diesel

Now done 4500 + hours and its never been serviced as I see no reason to pull it apart to decoke it as it can't be coked cos it runs perfectly?

 

If you need hot water only - summer use 20 mins and showers etc no probs all on the timer, winter again set and forget heat when you want it

 

Yes a solid fuel stove will heat water and the boat (we have one as we like the cosy feel) but they are messy and not easily controlled and are often kept alight for months at a time so the heat is available when needed (but not a lot of use when returning in the freezing cold after a few days away?

 

And look for the boats with all the windows and doors open in the winter with folk hanging out trying to cool down

 

All boaters have likes and best of both worlds in my opinion is fully auto system and a solid fuel stove

 

Running the engine to heat domestic hot water is expensive and depending on location anti-social, ditto burning all kinds of crap on a solid fuel stove

 

Its a case of each to their own and you will never get 100% agreement that one way is best, Our set up suits us

 

Good luck

 

Ray

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Ooh just had chance to have a proper look at this. This might be a sensible goal. smile.png a fairly high aim, but I've got a birthday coming up, I could have a collection to swell the coffers a bit. tongue.png

 

Mike the boilerman,

 

Are you just talking about home boilers or does this include Alde and Morco combis? Thank you smile.png

 

 

I was meaning household domestic combi boilers converted to run on propane.

 

Alde don't appear to do a true combi boiler. The Compact 3010 will deliver 12 litres of hot water every half an hour - not enough for a shower so cannot be described as a combi - or must be used with a calorifier.

 

The Morco combi boilers are all household domestic boilers and my comments apply to all their models.

 

 

MtB

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