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Overgrown towpaths!!


Karma Dreams

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Well we've just done the lower part of the S&W which is a disgrace and been told by some contractors that they can't do the towpath because of the 'environmentalist'. When I contact CRT they said that was rubbish and they were trying to get the contractors to fulfil their obligations. Yet we turn up the Shroppie and its all been cut - all of it!! What is going on? Mind you my gripe is the non towpath side. I could live with narrow sections - if you can see down them but the number of blind bends that are caused by overhanging trees is ridiculous. How about someone from CRT actually getting a boat and trying to navigate their own damned waterways and seeing how dangerous some place are!!

That is THE word to use when talking to officialdom. Raise the spectre of H & S and at least they will have a look if not actually do anything.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

How about more boaters carrying clippers/ secateurs/ saws and removing the overhanging parts which annoy them, rather than just moaning about them?

 

I don't actually carry clippers on the roof but I do break off overhanging bits as I go along.

 

You have to pick your tree mind. Ash and beech are easy but some will bend two double and still not snap off!

 

George ex nb Alton retired

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Personally I go out of my way to find the overgrown bits. They are usually the nicest. Most wildlife, most peaceful, most beautiful. Getting near the edge can be fun and my trusty plank and sickle are sometimes needed.

 

This is me moored on the Montgomery Canal a few days ago.

 

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Well boaters I can say that when i sent that email to C&T when I began this post I wasn't holding my breath on a response so quick... but YES a reply I received... and I quote this below

 

Quote.......

Thank you for your below email. Currently Dean Davies is away on secondment so I am covering for him in the interim.

The situation with our grass cutting has been a cause of real frustration and embarrassment to us locally and is a problem that has been building up over recent weeks. My team and I have spent a significant amount of time dealing with this and is due to several reasons - our contractors falling behind plan, good growing conditions and problems with the specification. Our contract managers are working hard to address this issue and as such they have increased the number of teams working on it and improved the specification so we hope to see some of these issues resolved in the short term, especially around the fringes, although given the length of grass and fringe, I suspect it may take some time to resolve totally. One thing worth a mention is that due to the staffs & Worcester being a conservation area we will not be removing the entire length of reed fringe but we will be removing about a quarter of it to facilitate mooring and visibility.

However, given the above I was genuinely frustrated to read your comments about the apparent lack of progress on site and have challenged my contract manager on this. At present we are just finishing the towpath cuts on the southern section, although this isn’t always visible due to the fringe, and are now about to start the reed fringe works so hopefully you will see a difference in the short term. I appreciate that there are some days that the teams are not present but overall they are working on the problem.

With regard to the trees, we were not aware of the one between bridge 7 & 8 so we are now investigating this – so thank you for the report. The other tree which is fenced off should be removed imminently. The problem with this one is size and position of the root ball which meant it wasn’t quite as straight forward as we had hoped – however this should be out shortly.

I hope this above helps and I do really appreciate you taking the time to bring it to my attention.

Kind regards

Ian Lane

Acting Waterway Manager

West Midlands Waterway

T: 01827 252054

E: ian.lane@canalrivertrust.org.uk

 

 

Unquote....

 

And i must admit since I received this mail from them, work has DEFINITELY begun ... that offending tree between bridges 7 & 8 removed, saw the work party involved next day!! and although not seen the work force the edges are getting cut... albeit in some spots neatly piled up for collection... and further up the S&W a lot of the trimmings lying dumped in the cut!!! Just had to stop and clear the prop!!!!

 

One point I'm not sure of is, what is meant by 'the fringe'!! Is this 'our side water edge'? Or, cyclists side towpath? umm....will see..So it seems the 'rant' works... So if anyone one wants to contact them over maybe the 'offside overgrowth' which is a pain as well... feel free... argue.gif

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Well done, good result. Let's hope we see an improvement.

Agree with others re S&W southern section - it was terrible earlier this month.

Andy, yes to Athy. will take secateurs in future.

George - did a fair bit of branch snapping, especially on Stourbridge and Dudley canals!

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Ho hum - this has been annoying me so much I thought I would have my two penny worth as well - just sent this to the nice Mr Lane:

I have seen a reply from you to a member of the forum I chat on, regarding the disgraceful state of some of the towpaths on the canals. I would like to ask some questions. We came up the Staffs and Worcs a month ago from Stourport and not only was it impossible to moor in most places but it was particularly dangerous due to the amount of growth blocking the view on its tight turns. Imagine my surprise to turn into the Shropshire canal and find a perfectly mown towpath. When we then went down the Middlewich branch we met the lads doing the cutting. Once again imagine my surprise to find that once past them, the towpath was hardly overgrown at all yet there they were about to trim it all over again.

What on earth is CRT's policy? I am going up the Macclesfield soon and have been told that it is also dreadful. Why can't all canals be treated the same?

I also noted that you use the phrase 'The fringe' what is this? It seems to me that you might be talking about leaving an uncut edge to the canal which is exactly what stops us mooring without getting stung or being able to actually get ashore. Again on the Shroppie it has all been trimmed back.

On that point could I request that someone from CRT actually travels by boat down the canals. The reason for this is that they will quickly see it is not only the towpath that is the problem. On many canals the non towpath growth is very dangerous as it restricts ones view on bends. In fact in many places this growth will make some canals unnavigable in the near future unless it is cut back. This is not a seasonal issue as we are talking about large trees and bushes. I assume CRT has a duty of care in this regard, in my view it is only a matter of time before there is a collision and someone is hurt.

 

Will post any responses

Edited by larryjc
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What you are witnessing with these maintenance problems is the result of "privatization" of work that should be done by government employees. It has been said that a company called Foundation has the contract for the landscape maintenance of all the waterways. Foundation's chief responsibility, being that it is a for-profit company, is not to ensure that the waterways are maintained to a high standard, their chief responsibility is to ensure maximum profit, which means cutting corners and doing the work as cheaply as humanly possible. Privatization of public functions is an ill-conceived idea that will never be successful as there is an inherent conflict of interests. The primary duty of any corporation is to maximize profits, not to do a good job.

 

If one considers the £10 million budget for landscape maintenance and a better way to use it, consider that CRT could employ and house a caretaker for approximately £50,000 per year. One hundred caretakers, each with 20 miles of canal to their responsibility, would cost £5 million. That would leave £5 million for a number of boats that would constantly cruise the canals cutting back trees. If one budgeted £200,000/ year for a workboat with a two person crew and a butty for them to live in, that would be 25 boats and crews which could surely cover the entire length of the canal every year. (Doing the math, it works out to less than 1/2 mile of canal per day.) When you look at it from this perspective, for another £5 - £10million per year, CRT could have other sets of crews, workboats and butties that could cruise the system and remove trash/debris and dredge the entire system annually.

 

Even if my figures are wrong and off by 100%, CRT could still maintain your canals in tip-top condition for a lot less than it is spending now to maintain them in a condition that is far from ideal. The fact is that there are just some jobs that government/quasi-government agencies can do much better that private companies. The whole privatization idea is a scam because private companies need to make a profit whereas government agencies only need to pay for the work required.

 

Perhaps you folks should do some serious number crunching and close examination of CRT budgets and then apply pressure to CRT to spend its money more wisely.

  • Greenie 1
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Karma dreams: the "fringe" is the strip of grass left on the waters side after they have mowed either side of the towpath. This used to be called the summer cut, the winter cut is when the fringe is cut along with all vegetation up to a 3m width from the waters edge. .

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Sorry for the length but below is Mr Lanes reply and my response:

 

Thank you for the below email and for taking the time to write to me.

With regard to our policy, we do have a set of standard specifications which are delivered by our national contractor. These specifications were selected based on several factors including the type of canal, environmental nature, usage, location etc. and are managed by our contract managers, which is why you will see different and varying numbers of cuts on adjacent canals. These specifications were built up some years ago by a range of teams including individuals from our maintenance and environmental teams. However our recent experiences have shown us that our specifications may now be dated, inconsistent, and are clearly open for interpretation by those delivering them which has given us real problems. Therefore a full review of our vegetation management and our specifications has already been instigated by Vince Moran as this is an area we need to improve on quickly to avoid these problems occurring again.

I think we have had more impact within the West Midlands than other waterways as we were one of the few that were using our own direct labour until very recently. Others had transferred to contracts several years ago and the systems are now quite smooth. As our staff were transferred locally to the contractors they continued to cut what they had always cut – which was actually above specification, however as they were moved and the contractors own staff moved in they started to cut to specification – which is where our problems started and the problems came to light. Hopefully the short term remedial measures we have implemented, of additional cuts, more specific width cuts and more fringe removal, and the above review will see us through this difficult period and put us in a stronger position for the future.

With regard to the Staff & Worcester specification, this is a conservation area, and as such we are trying to improve and promote wildlife habitat and biodiversity by leaving a reed fringe. We have done this for a long time and will continue to do so. However, there is a balance and we do acknowledge that the reed fringe can also bring its problems, as you have quite rightly pointed out. Therefore we have already instructed extra sections of the fringe to be cut to allow for safe mooring along the canal.

With regard to the visits – I am doing that myself this week and next, to see the issues from a boater perspective. I have also walked it this week to get a feel for the problems.

I trust this answers your questions and shows that we do acknowledge we have problems and are trying to address them.

 

My response (minus the photos):

 

Thanks for a very prompt reply. However when I posted on your Facebook page some weeks ago about the Staffs - I got a different answer basically saying that the contract managers were having trouble getting the contractors to do their job - with no mention at all of any conservation areas. Strangely this has now been taken off your FB site! On the lower Oxford there are signs about conservation areas - there are none on the Staffs.

 

You have completely ignored my second point about the off side vegetation. I attach a couple of photos taken this morning coming down the Trent and Mersey between Middlewich and Wheelock. Once again I had to resort to asking my wife to go into the bows and warn me of oncoming boats. This whole section is overgrown on the non towpath side. This is typical of miles of many canals. I have been told that the Peak Forest canal is effectively one boat wide at the moment from someone who has just come down it. From previous experience on many canals this is all too common - what is CRT policy about maintaining a safe navigable waterway withy regard to vegetation on BOTH sides?

 

Edit - and the final reply:

 

I am sorry for missing of the point about offside trees. With regard to a national policy I am sorry but whilst I agree this issue needs to be addressed I am not aware of a specific one but I have asked the question and will get back to on that. Whilst I cannot comment on the waterways who’s trees you have sent photos of or the Peak Forest, locally within West Midlands we have a five year rolling programme to cut back offside trees. However we do appreciate that there will be some growth between cuts and as such if new trees are identified that cause a problem we will endeavour to pick this up if we can. It may not always be possible to do this on a huge scale but where significant problems arise I agree this is an issue we should address. Whilst grass cutting seems to a local issue offside veg seems to be a national problem and as such our Operations Director Vince Moran has made more money available to waterways to undertake these works as they have been identified by our customers as something they would like to see more off. Personally I think this is really positive move to address the issues you quite rightly point out. I also suspect and hope that this will be addressed by Vince overall vegetation review.

 

With regard to the Staffs & Worcester – the delays have been caused by several reasons and initially it was because they fell behind programme but as things have unravelled we have been able to understand these issues better, and appreciate that the reed fringe was also part of the problem as well as grass cutting. I only mention the conservation area to explain the reasoning behind why we keep the reed fringe and what we hope to achieve by having it – it was not as an excuse for the delays.

 

So the Pigs are all fed and ready to fly.....................

Edited by larryjc
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If all the concerned boaters were to deluge CRT with letters demanding the abandonment of the "national contractor" policy, as it is obviously an unmanageable failure, and reinstatement of CRT employees, doing the maintenance, things would improve.

 

But it is going to take a concerted effort to convince CRT that using contractors is a bad idea and an experiment that failed. The logic behind ditching the contractors is sound, inasmuch as companies are beholden only to shareholders and profits, not to CRT and results.

 

Contractors taking over government services have been unmitigated disasters wherever they have been used. You folks just need to go on a campaign to convince CRT that it is time for them to acknowledge this fact and to change the practice. So start bombarding Richard Perry and your MP's with email. Get someone who knows how to crunch numbers and do cost analysis to join in your movement and to show in simple, indisputable arithmetic terms how the current budget could be better spent.

 

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

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With the towpath hedges not being cut, the offside trees not being cut back, and the vegetation on the towpath taking over, the views whlst travelling are greatly diminished. A lot of people I have spoken to are losing interest in the canals which are slowly turning into dark tunnels of vegetation. Still, it makes the wildlife people happy.

 

Simon

nb Bulrush

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Sorry, I've been on both sides of this fence and the dogma that contractors are bad and home grown employees are good is just too simplistic. In my view the reality is that when there is only so much money to spend then its good management that gets results. In this case its clear to me that CRT couldn't manage their backside if it was on fire irrespective of who does the work. They clearly haven't a clue what a canal is like to drive down and after talking to lots of CRT guys on the ground they feel the same. Until the people who are in charge of managing this issue understand the canals and what is needed then we are looking at more of the same irrespective of who is paid to do the actual work.

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In the 90s I had a contract manager for bw who used to measure my "winter cut " all vegetation from the waters edge to the hedgerow must be cut to 3m. If there were stinging nettles overhanging he called me to go and cut ithem. Obviously these type of people are no longer

Edited by glenvar
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I could be wrong but I suspect tree and heavy reed removal comes out of the maintenance budget when instead it should be counted as capital investment. Tree removal is not maintenance, preventing it growing in the first place is.

 

So if tree/reed removal is in the maintenance budget it needs some basic financial rethinking and any money set aside for capital investment should be spent on this removal as a priority.

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Please don't mention the dreaded word 'maintenance' in the same sentence as CRT. They don't do any that I've seen. All they do is wait for things to break then fix them at the three times the cost of actually preventing the failure in the first place.

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Please don't mention the dreaded word 'maintenance' in the same sentence as CRT. They don't do any that I've seen. All they do is wait for things to break then fix them at the three times the cost of actually preventing the failure in the first place.

Precisely.

 

Priorities need sorting perhaps?

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As as CC'er I do carry a set of shears and if I have any difficulty in mooring up will use them! From what I've seen on my travels there is a lot of overgrown towpath side areas but then they are often in shallow areas in which you (or at least I) would not be able to moor anyway, so I have more concern over lack of dredging than overgrown towpaths.

 

The point that strikes me in this thread is trying to find out who should be doing work on the canals whereas my view when I'm travelling is that if there is something that is causing me a problem, I will do something about it if I can. If there is a log blocking a lock gate I'll try to get it out, if there is a supermarket trolly in the canal I'll get my magnet out, if a boat comes adrift in front of me I'll stop and re-tie it. Surely if we want to enjoy the canals we should put the effort in to correct what we see to be wrong, isn't that what the volunteering idea is all about? The areas that I will leave to CRT is when I find the Elsan point blocked or the rubbish bins overflowing, for that I'll usually send them an e-mail but for everything else, if I can remedy the problem I will. I don't travel along thinking '..someone ought to do something about this...' if it is important enough I'll do it, if not then why worry? Life's too short.

  • Greenie 1
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I listened to a piece on radio 4 the other day about a supermarket ditching the coinslots on their trollies. A man from CaRT was complaining about trollies in canals. Apparently it's bad for the wildlife and towpath walkers don't like to see it. That's it, no mention of anglers losing their tackle or impedance to boaters just wildlife and walkers visual amenity. The two groups who pay don't count. Enough. I'm not hanging around to subsidise the national cycle network any more.

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As as CC'er I do carry a set of shears and if I have any difficulty in mooring up will use them! From what I've seen on my travels there is a lot of overgrown towpath side areas but then they are often in shallow areas in which you (or at least I) would not be able to moor anyway, so I have more concern over lack of dredging than overgrown towpaths.

 

The point that strikes me in this thread is trying to find out who should be doing work on the canals whereas my view when I'm travelling is that if there is something that is causing me a problem, I will do something about it if I can. If there is a log blocking a lock gate I'll try to get it out, if there is a supermarket trolly in the canal I'll get my magnet out, if a boat comes adrift in front of me I'll stop and re-tie it. Surely if we want to enjoy the canals we should put the effort in to correct what we see to be wrong, isn't that what the volunteering idea is all about? The areas that I will leave to CRT is when I find the Elsan point blocked or the rubbish bins overflowing, for that I'll usually send them an e-mail but for everything else, if I can remedy the problem I will. I don't travel along thinking '..someone ought to do something about this...' if it is important enough I'll do it, if not then why worry? Life's too short.

I'd be fine with that if they let me deduct the cost of my tools and time from my licence fee.

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There is no way any boater can make a real difference with a pair of shears. We are talking large trees and bushes. Why couldn't CRT mount one of those hedge cutter thingies on a barge that you see farmers using on tractors and cut back the worst of the non towpath side??

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