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Posted

"These also apply on most inland freight waterways. "

 

Given that hardly any freight is carried on canals now is this valid?

Posted

 

So in other words they don't apply to the vast majority of the canal system:

 

Quote:

Vessel movements at sea are governed by the internationally agreed Collision Regulations 1. These also apply on most inland freight waterways.

While the rules about avoiding collisions are fairly simple on more inland freight waterways (keep to the right to avoid collisions, unless signalled to do otherwise), you need to be slightly more familiar with the rules if you are entering larger estuarial waterways.

Posted

 

So in other words they don't apply to the vast majority of the canal system:

 

Quote:

Vessel movements at sea are governed by the internationally agreed Collision Regulations 1. These also apply on most inland freight waterways.

 

 

So does anyone have a reference to support this claim on the waterways.org.uk site?

 

We need to know how the authoritative source (if it exists) defines an "inland freight waterway".

 

 

MtB

Posted (edited)

So does anyone have a reference to support this claim on the waterways.org.uk site?

 

We need to know how the authoritative source (if it exists) defines an "inland freight waterway".

 

 

MtB

I do know that some of the waterways we cruise on have different requirements regarding navigation lights (though not including 'narrow' boats and are referred to as 'Freight waterways' so perhaps it's linked in some way to that.

 

Aire & Calder Navigation

Sheffield & South Yorkshire Navigation

New Junction Canal

Stainforth & Keadby Canal.

 

https://www.waterways.org.uk/boating/navigating_your_boat/vhf/navigation_lights

Edited by The Dog House
Posted

 

 

So does anyone have a reference to support this claim on the waterways.org.uk site?

 

We need to know how the authoritative source (if it exists) defines an "inland freight waterway".

 

 

MtB

Firstly, the web site is not quite correct because the Collision Regs. do apply to waters other than at sea. (See below)

Secondly, as far as BW/CRT steering and sailing rules in the Bye Laws are concerned, they broadly follow the stipulation in the Collision Regs. as do most other local bye laws which govern inland and local waterways.

 

This is an extract from Rule 1 of the International Collision Regulations:-

 

Application

 

(a) These Rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels.

(B) Nothing in these Rules shall interfere with the operation of special rules made by an appropriate authority for roadsteads, harbours, rivers, lakes or inland waterways connected with the high seas and navigable by seagoing vessels. Such special rules shall conform as closely as possible to these Rules

.......

 

Howard

Posted

The 'Navigable by seagoing vessels' bit is where this becomes dubious.

Yes even the smallest canals can be navigated by vessels which can also go to sea, kayaks being an extreme example, but I wouldn't read that as being what was intended with the wording.

Barrack room lawyers could have a field day with it of course.

 

Tim

Posted

Barrack room lawyers could have a field day with it of course.

 

Tim

 

 

And frequently do. We must get a 'COLREGS apply everywhere' thread twice a year

 

Richard

Posted

 

 

And frequently do. We must get a 'COLREGS apply everywhere' thread twice a year

 

Richard

 

Quite - in terms of canal boat handling, especially with regards to narrow canals, then reference to COLREGS should invoke an equivalent of Godwin's law.

 

We could call it "Richard's Law" if you like? Reference to COLREGS in this context indicates you have never steered a narrowboat on a narrow canal, and therefore don't know what you are talking about.

  • Greenie 1
Posted

I don't want it

 

Is it rare then to pass right side to right side? I can think of many places that this happens, like exiting locks on the Lapworth flight where trying to do anything else would be a huge faff. Perhaps it's a 70' boat thing

 

Richard

Posted

I regularly pass other boats 'green to green' .

 

Usually when I've just untied from a lock landing on the left as the other boat is coming out of the lock.

 

 

MtB

Posted

As the owner of a deep drafted working boat, that is being used commercially, and may weigh over 35 tonnes when fully loaded and draw 3'4" or more along the full 71' 6" length someone has to take control of the situation. When wanting to pass the wrong side I make a definite movement with the boat and indicate by waving my hand up and down along the side of the boat I wish the other boat to go. I've passed more boats on the wrong side because they were in the wrong place than because I wanted the outside of the corner ironically.

 

There is at least one place where to pass a boat I need to be in the deep water in the middle of the canal as reeds have grown out from the bank and it's shallow and rocky on the towpath side, but there is plenty of depth for pleasure boats.

 

The British Waterways Bye-Laws 1965: http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/media/documents/foi/legal/BW_General_Canal_Bye-laws.pdf are still current (with later ammendments). No mention of 'Col-Regs' in the document, though the rules are similar, down to using horn signals on commercial waterways.

 

My understanding of Blue Boards on the continent is that while downstream traffic has priority upstream traffic can choose which side to pass. This is usually because the upstream traffic is trying to avoid the flows and may want to come up the inside slow flowing part of a bend. I understand it would be normal to show the board continuously during this manoeuvre, but perhaps it's just shown when other vessels are about. It would be too much of a faff to do on a narrowboat!

 

Mike

Posted

 

The British Waterways Bye-Laws 1965: http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/media/documents/foi/legal/BW_General_Canal_Bye-laws.pdf are still current (with later ammendments). No mention of 'Col-Regs' in the document,

 

Mike

 

Not surprising really, Colregs didn't come into being until 1972 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Regulations_for_Preventing_Collisions_at_Sea

 

Richard

Posted

 

Not surprising really, Colregs didn't come into being until 1972 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Regulations_for_Preventing_Collisions_at_Sea

 

Richard

The collision regulations have existed in various incarnations for well over 100 years.

 

The 1972 regulations amended the 1960 regulations to take into account Traffic Separation Schemes, and in turn the 960 regulations were updates of earlier regs which actually started as early as 1840 using a set of rules drawn up by Trinity House.

 

Howard

Posted

 

 

And frequently do. We must get a 'COLREGS apply everywhere' thread twice a year

 

Richard

But do they apply to the motor boats on the park lake?

Posted

The collision regulations have existed in various incarnations for well over 100 years.

 

The 1972 regulations amended the 1960 regulations to take into account Traffic Separation Schemes, and in turn the 960 regulations were updates of earlier regs which actually started as early as 1840 using a set of rules drawn up by Trinity House.

 

Howard

 

And they were not called COLREGS before 1972, so there can't be a reference to them in the 1965 document

 

Richard

But do they apply to the motor boats on the park lake?

 

Commercial operation, innit

 

Richard

Posted

The collision regulations have existed in various incarnations for well over 100 years.

 

... and in turn the 960 regulations were updates of earlier regs ...

Sounds more like they've been in existence for well over 1000 years!

Posted

Colregs apply to inland navigations by virtue of the Merchant Shipping Acts.

I could spend many hours looking up which version and which paragraph specifically, but the naysayers will still argue.

 

SO I won't bother.

 

One day a really shiny boat will get their lovely gunnel scraped and make a claim and the outcome may well rest on whether a sound signal was given.

 

On the broader, flowing ditch where I cruise, I always give sound signals if unsighted, so if there's a collision I can always rely on the signal.

 

 

 

 

Posted

But do they apply to the motor boats on the park lake?

 

They certainly apply on my garden pond. I've written it into my navigation regulations.

 

MtB

Posted

A flotilla of ducks and a herd of Canada geese have just passed each other on the wrong side outside my boat, there was no collision, plenty of sound signals though, after thousands of years of evolution you'd have thought they'd have learnt the Colregs.

Posted

 

Presumably something in here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/1075/made

 

What are zone 1, 2, 3 and 4 waters?

 

Richard

 

MORE: I notice canal boats comply with next to none of that stuff

Sorry I started.....

 

Lost the will to read that, but wasn't there a reference to the MAIB requirements in there, somewhere?

 

There was an incident on the ditchy bit of the Thames where the MAIB got involved.

Posted (edited)

Sorry I started.....

 

Lost the will to read that, but wasn't there a reference to the MAIB requirements in there, somewhere?

 

There was an incident on the ditchy bit of the Thames where the MAIB got involved.

MAIB are interested in any fatal accidents on boats in UK waters, including canals.

The MCA is responsible for passenger boat regulations/inspections on the canals.

It doesn't necessarily follow that COLREGS apply to canals, though.

 

Tim

Edited by Timleech
Posted

A flotilla of ducks and a herd of Canada geese have just passed each other on the wrong side outside my boat, there was no collision, plenty of sound signals though, after thousands of years of evolution you'd have thought they'd have learnt the Colregs.

That's Ducks and Geese for yer. They just have no respect for authority.

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