New Fit Out Plumbing

[Ali Bongo]

I'm currently fitting out a 64ft narrowboat and have reached the point of fitting out the plumbing.

 

I'm concentrating on the fresh water system, of which im adopting a very similar (if not identical) structure to C-Warm's schematic drawing...(see image link below)

 

http://www.tnorrismarine.co.uk/images/cal1.JPG

 

 

This system on paper looks pretty straight forward to me, I've sourced most of the parts yet connecting them together is a mystery to me. I'll be using push fit Hep2O which is relatively basic to fit, my concern lies more with installing the main components like the calorifier, water pump, accumulator tank, shower, valves etc...

 

Has anyone installed a fresh water system and can guide me in the right direction?

 

P.s - I'm very new to boating and unfamiliar with plumbing 'know how', hence theoretic or jargon related advice won't really help me, im much more apt at learning in a practical and visual method, I would be truly grateful if you could cater to that medium of information, regardless any help would be very much appreciated.

 

Thanks in advance.

[smileypete]

Try a google for 'Speedfit tutorial' and look at the top 3 results, applies to Hep2O the same, more or less. 15mm pipe should do throughout a narrowboat.

 

Connecting the pump may be a bit tricky but depends on the exact model, as they can have different inlet and outlet fittings.

 

Here's a tip; best get Speedfit type pipe in straight lengths, NOT as a coil, as the latter is quite hard to work with and end up with a neat result.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited July 5, 2014 by smileypete

[Ali Bongo]

Hey Pete

 

Thanks for the heads up..makes sense to google as much as I can.

 

I will be using speedfit and have already sourced all the straight lengths ready to go.

 

My dilemma is understanding how the calorifier and accumulator tank get installed. I've attempted to look online but to no avail, however i'l keep on plugging in and hopefully get there soon.

 

Thanks all the same

 

Ali

[smileypete]

The accumulator and calorifier will likely have screwed connections with 'BSP' type threads, which can connect to 15mm pipe with a BSP to push fit adapter.

 

A google on 'BSP threads' will give a couple of links to correctly measure and identify them. The size are in fractions of an inch eg 1/2" 3/4" 1", but be careful a thread that's about 3/4" across is NOT 3/4" BSP, it needs checking against a BSP thread table!

 

A tube of 'Fernox LS-X' jointing compound from the likes of Screwfix can be very handy to seal threaded connections.

 

The accumulator is fitted with the water connection at the bottom, a fixing kit can be used, or make something with pipe clip band and wood/plywood to make the 'saddle', eg:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Accumulator-Expansion-tank-fixing-kit-CW324-/180492625288

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3m-LONG-HOSE-CLAMP-KIT-with-8-tensions-clips-jubilee-type-pipe-band-clamp-/261284961123

 

The calorifer just needs a decent base, could be handy to use some sturdy wooden bracketry as to restrain it if the boat has a collision. DO be sure to fit a 'Pressure Relief Valve' (PRV) to it, they must be fitted correctly for safety reasons! They often come ready fitted, or at least supplied with the calorifier, and look like this, eg:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Altecnic-Pressure-Relief-Valve-1-2-Female-3-Bar-311430-/251019359906

 

If they're not ready fitted they should be 'teed' into the hot water outlet that goes to the taps. If they don't come with the calorifier please do ask the manufacturer of the calorifier as the correct pressure 'PRV' must be fitted.

 

Something also worth considering is fitting a non return valve before the cold water inlet of the calorifier, and an 'expansion vessel' between the non return valve and cold inlet. The reason for this is that when the calorifier heats up, the water from the calorifier doesn't expand and go back and mix with the drinking water:

 

The size of the expansion vessel needed depends on the size of the calorifier (Edit: See below for an example..) Also if buying off Ebay etc it's best to get the blue or white accumulators/expansion vessels for potable water use, they're pricier, but the cheap red ones may be intended for central heating systems and will likely rust away inside.

 

Some calorifiers like the 'Surecal' branded ones may have a non return valve already fitted right at the cold water inlet, so the expansion vessel is then 'teed' into the hot water outlet to the taps, see the diagram on their website.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited July 5, 2014 by smileypete

[Paul G2]

 

My dilemma is understanding how the calorifier and accumulator tank get installed. I've attempted to look online but to no avail, however i'l keep on plugging in and hopefully get there soon.

 

Thanks all the same

 

Ali

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Better questions get better answers. "Installed" is a multi-faceted kind of thing. If you need to know how and where/how to mount the calorifier, accumulator, tanks etc. then ask specific questions relevant to your specific installation and you will get answers from knowledgeable people that will suit your specific installation. A good place to start would be to make a drawing of your boat showing the layout that you envision. It's also helpful if you list the specific equipment that you intend to use.

 

Remember that you are asking complete strangers to come to your aid and use their time to share their expertise with you. Asking someone to, for example, write a complete instruction manual for installing a calorifier under all variable circumstances is a bit too much to ask. The more effort you put into your questions, the more effort people will put into their replies.

[smileypete]

Well a typical setup would be:

 

10 litre per minute 28 PSI/2 bar fresh water pump like the Shurflo Trail King 10, or an equivalent Jabsco model.

55 litre 4 bar calorifier like the Surecal 55L (the Surecal comes with non return valve and PRV already fitted.)

5 litre expansion vessel, as supplied by Surecal or sourced from Ebay

5 litre expansion vessel to use as pump accumulator, sourced as above.

 

When fitting the expansion vessel check it pressurised to 2 bar/28 PSI using a tyre gauge on the valve under the cap.

When fitting the accumulator check it's pressurised to 1 bar/14 PSI bar in the same way.

If a bigger calorifier is wanted the volume of the expansion vessel needs to be increased accordingly.

 

Just an example but should do for the OP.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited July 5, 2014 by smileypete

[NMEA]

The accumulator and calorifier will likely have screwed connections with 'BSP' type threads, which can connect to 15mm pipe with a BSP to push fit adapter.

 

A google on 'BSP threads' will give a couple of links to correctly measure and identify them. The size are in fractions of an inch eg 1/2" 3/4" 1", but be careful a thread that's about 3/4" across is NOT 3/4" BSP, it needs checking against a BSP thread table!

 

A tube of 'Fernox LS-X' jointing compound from the likes of Screwfix can be very handy to seal threaded connections.

 

The accumulator is fitted with the water connection at the bottom, a fixing kit can be used, or make something with pipe clip band and wood/plywood to make the 'saddle', eg:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Accumulator-Expansion-tank-fixing-kit-CW324-/180492625288

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3m-LONG-HOSE-CLAMP-KIT-with-8-tensions-clips-jubilee-type-pipe-band-clamp-/261284961123

 

The calorifer just needs a decent base, could be handy to use some sturdy wooden bracketry as to restrain it if the boat has a collision. DO be sure to fit a 'Pressure Relief Valve' (PRV) to it, they must be fitted correctly for safety reasons! They often come ready fitted, or at least supplied with the calorifier, and look like this, eg:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Altecnic-Pressure-Relief-Valve-1-2-Female-3-Bar-311430-/251019359906

 

If they're not ready fitted they should be 'teed' into the hot water outlet that goes to the taps. If they don't come with the calorifier please do ask the manufacturer of the calorifier as the correct pressure 'PRV' must be fitted.

 

Something also worth considering is fitting a non return valve before the cold water inlet of the calorifier, and an 'expansion vessel' between the non return valve and cold inlet. The reason for this is that when the calorifier heats up, the water from the calorifier doesn't expand and go back and mix with the drinking water:

 

The size of the expansion vessel needed depends on the size of the calorifier (Edit: See below for an example..) Also if buying off Ebay etc it's best to get the blue or white accumulators/expansion vessels for potable water use, they're pricier, but the cheap red ones may be intended for central heating systems and will likely rust away inside.

 

Some calorifiers like the 'Surecal' branded ones may have a non return valve already fitted right at the cold water inlet, so the expansion vessel is then 'teed' into the hot water outlet to the taps, see the diagram on their website.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

That's a very good example Pete, the only (and important in my view) thing missing from it is a full bore shut off valve at the tank and sevice valves to each tap and supply to the calorifier. For anybody else that wishes to help, Ali's layout is tank forward, Heads and galley area roughly midships starboard side right next to each other. There site is also where the pressure vessel and filling loop for the heating system will be installed.

[smileypete]

That's a very good example Pete, the only (and important in my view) thing missing from it is a full bore shut off valve at the tank and sevice valves to each tap and supply to the calorifier. For anybody else that wishes to help, Ali's layout is tank forward, Heads and galley area roughly midships starboard side right next to each other. There site is also where the pressure vessel and filling loop for the heating system will be installed.

 

On the other hand, I wonder if my second reply had toooo much detail.

 

Often I think people ask these sort of questions hoping they can save a lot of money, and someone will 'make it simple' for them. Advice that helps them understand otherwise is not so well received and they often look for alternatives, making a detailed reply from anyone helping into a waste of their time...

 

Might be best to offer a very simple generic solution at first, then if the OP stays interested, add the detail in stages. I even did some 'simple' layouts for boat gravity heating systems which seemed to have the unexpected effect of actually putting people off, but at least they got some idea of what they were up against.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smtp~

Edited July 6, 2014 by smileypete

[Ali Bongo]

The accumulator and calorifier will likely have screwed connections with 'BSP' type threads, which can connect to 15mm pipe with a BSP to push fit adapter.

 

A google on 'BSP threads' will give a couple of links to correctly measure and identify them. The size are in fractions of an inch eg 1/2" 3/4" 1", but be careful a thread that's about 3/4" across is NOT 3/4" BSP, it needs checking against a BSP thread table!

 

A tube of 'Fernox LS-X' jointing compound from the likes of Screwfix can be very handy to seal threaded connections.

 

The accumulator is fitted with the water connection at the bottom, a fixing kit can be used, or make something with pipe clip band and wood/plywood to make the 'saddle', eg:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Accumulator-Expansion-tank-fixing-kit-CW324-/180492625288

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3m-LONG-HOSE-CLAMP-KIT-with-8-tensions-clips-jubilee-type-pipe-band-clamp-/261284961123

 

The calorifer just needs a decent base, could be handy to use some sturdy wooden bracketry as to restrain it if the boat has a collision. DO be sure to fit a 'Pressure Relief Valve' (PRV) to it, they must be fitted correctly for safety reasons! They often come ready fitted, or at least supplied with the calorifier, and look like this, eg:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Altecnic-Pressure-Relief-Valve-1-2-Female-3-Bar-311430-/251019359906

 

If they're not ready fitted they should be 'teed' into the hot water outlet that goes to the taps. If they don't come with the calorifier please do ask the manufacturer of the calorifier as the correct pressure 'PRV' must be fitted.

 

Something also worth considering is fitting a non return valve before the cold water inlet of the calorifier, and an 'expansion vessel' between the non return valve and cold inlet. The reason for this is that when the calorifier heats up, the water from the calorifier doesn't expand and go back and mix with the drinking water:

 

The size of the expansion vessel needed depends on the size of the calorifier (Edit: See below for an example..) Also if buying off Ebay etc it's best to get the blue or white accumulators/expansion vessels for potable water use, they're pricier, but the cheap red ones may be intended for central heating systems and will likely rust away inside.

 

Some calorifiers like the 'Surecal' branded ones may have a non return valve already fitted right at the cold water inlet, so the expansion vessel is then 'teed' into the hot water outlet to the taps, see the diagram on their website.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

 

Hey Pete

 

Apologies for my delayed response...

 

Really valuable advice given, see below for comments to your reply...

 

A google on 'BSP threads' will give a couple of links to correctly measure and identify them. The size are in fractions of an inch eg 1/2" 3/4" 1", but be careful a thread that's about 3/4" across is NOT 3/4" BSP, it needs checking against a BSP thread table!

 

I'll definitely check the BSP thread table and match up the correct diameters accordingly

 

A tube of 'Fernox LS-X' jointing compound from the likes of Screwfix can be very handy to seal threaded connections

 

I luckily found some of this of the boat when it was sold to me, so i'l be sure to use it when sealing connections

 

The accumulator is fitted with the water connection at the bottom, a fixing kit can be used, or make something with pipe clip band and wood/plywood to make the 'saddle', eg:

 

I've found a cheaper one at Screwfix - http://www.screwfix.com/p/expansion-vessel-mounting-bracket/86194 - it looks the identical as the one you quoted off ebay, yet less than half the price, do you think this will suffice?

 

The calorifer just needs a decent base, could be handy to use some sturdy wooden bracketry as to restrain it if the boat has a collision. DO be sure to fit a 'Pressure Relief Valve' (PRV) to it, they must be fitted correctly for safety reasons! They often come ready fitted, or at least supplied with the calorifier, and look like this, eg:

 

I have a C-Warm 55 lItre calorifier which came supplied with a PRV. I'll also be conscious to mount the calorifier securely, I'm planning to fabricate a housing for this out of wood.

 

Something also worth considering is fitting a non return valve before the cold water inlet of the calorifier, and an 'expansion vessel' between the non return valve and cold inlet. The reason for this is that when the calorifier heats up, the water from the calorifier doesn't expand and go back and mix with the drinking water:

 

A non return valve makes sense, something I didn't think of prior. I found one on Ebay - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/15mm-Double-Check-Valve-Speedfit-JG-John-Guest-Pushfit-Diy-Plumbing-Fittings-/291161228730?pt=UK_DIY_Materials_Plumbing_MJ&hash=item43ca8fc5ba - does this look like the correct part if i'm using 15mm piping?

[Ali Bongo]

That's a very good example Pete, the only (and important in my view) thing missing from it is a full bore shut off valve at the tank and sevice valves to each tap and supply to the calorifier. For anybody else that wishes to help, Ali's layout is tank forward, Heads and galley area roughly midships starboard side right next to each other. There site is also where the pressure vessel and filling loop for the heating system will be installed.

 

Yes a full bore shut off valve is needed, this allows me to completely shut off the system, is that correct? (excuse my naivety)

 

Is this a suitable shut off valve to use...http://www.screwfix.com/p/full-bore-lever-ball-valve-15mm/80413

[Ali Bongo]

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Better questions get better answers. "Installed" is a multi-faceted kind of thing. If you need to know how and where/how to mount the calorifier, accumulator, tanks etc. then ask specific questions relevant to your specific installation and you will get answers from knowledgeable people that will suit your specific installation. A good place to start would be to make a drawing of your boat showing the layout that you envision. It's also helpful if you list the specific equipment that you intend to use.

 

Remember that you are asking complete strangers to come to your aid and use their time to share their expertise with you. Asking someone to, for example, write a complete instruction manual for installing a calorifier under all variable circumstances is a bit too much to ask. The more effort you put into your questions, the more effort people will put into their replies.

 

You're totally right, I should of been more specific about my enquiry yet I found this difficult to fathom when I'm entering a completely new domain. I thought that keeping it broad would relay me some foundations of which I could then of been more detailed about certain aspects of this fit out, however I do appreciate that it doesn't suit everyone and that it can be difficult and time consuming to aid.

 

I'll definitely submit a drawing and part list that I intend to move forward with, that will evidently make this discussion alot more succinct for both parties.

 

Thank you for your patience and understanding

[Ali Bongo]

I also have another query...

 

Do I need to connect a strainer and and water filter?

 

The strainer located just after the water tank (I guess this would clear any debris in the tank from entering the system?)

 

The water filter would be located just before the drinking water outlet (kitchen taps)

 

Would both these components be advantageous and where can I source these parts from? Are they generic items found online/Screwfix etc or are they specialist parts

 

Advance apologies again for my dimness

[smileypete]

Hi Ali,

 

Right on all counts about the accumulator/expansion vessel mounting kit (good find!), the check valve and shut off valve.

 

As NMEA says, the shut off valve goes somewhere between the tank and the pump strainer, to allow the tank to be shut off to allow the strainer to be dismantled for cleaning. For the strainer itself, often the water pumps like the Shurflos will come with one included that just fixes onto or just before the pump inlet, but do check.

 

Something else to consider could be some means of draining the calorifier if you need to winterise the boat when unoccupied over winter, eg with a 'drain off' point low down near the cold inlet (maybe use a tee instead of an elbow somewhere to create an extra point for the drain off):

 

http://www.screwfix.com/p/drain-cock-type-a-heavy-pattern-15mm/99939

 

Also I'm sure you've noticed that the more unusual and less common speedfit fittings can be quite expensive. A cheaper alternative may be to use normal compression fittings instead, a quick google will find some info on the web on how to use the plastic speedfit pipe with these (but well worth practicing with some pipe offcuts and spare copper olives...):

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=using+speedfit+with+compression+fitting

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited July 7, 2014 by smileypete

[Chewbacka]

I did not notice anyone advising a thermostatic mixer on the calorifier (hot tank) outlet. If you engine runs hot you could end up with very very hot water coming from your hot taps. My mixer is set to about 60c.

[Scholar Gypsy]

I did not notice anyone advising a thermostatic mixer on the calorifier (hot tank) outlet. If you engine runs hot you could end up with very very hot water coming from your hot taps. My mixer is set to about 60c.

This is a good idea - I use one, with "hot" water going to the sink in the galley, and "warm" water to the washbasin and shower.

[smileypete]

Good point, also some shower mixers are thermostatic and limit the max temp.

 

Looks like C-Warm do a thermostatic blending valve for use with their calorifiers:

 

http://www.jabscoshop.com/pressure-systems/c-warm-heaters/c-warm-heater-accessories/cw268-thermostatic-blender-valve-15mm.htm

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited July 10, 2014 by smileypete

[Paul G2]

Can household type copper pipe be used on a boat or will the solder joints fail because of the vibration?

[smileypete]

Sure it's fine.

 

Copper is certain to be damaged by frost/freezing though, plastic is usually OK but plastic fittings may possibly split or get forced apart.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

[blackrose]

If nobody's already mentioned it, fit the water pump with two short lengths of flexible braided hose rather than direct to rigid plastic pipe. It will cope better with vibrations. The pump should also have its own strainer.

Edited July 11, 2014 by blackrose

[blackrose]

I did not notice anyone advising a thermostatic mixer on the calorifier (hot tank) outlet. If you engine runs hot you could end up with very very hot water coming from your hot taps. My mixer is set to about 60c.

A Y-strainer on the hot water pipe before the TMV may also be a good idea especially if you're in a hard water area. My TMV kept getting blocked with limescale from the calorifer before I fitter the strainer.

Edited July 11, 2014 by blackrose

[NMEA]

Can household type copper pipe be used on a boat or will the solder joints fail because of the vibration?

Copper pipe looks fabulous with nice brass Munsen ring supports, I have done a few like that but soldering is something I would never do on a boat, either electrical or plumbing, in fact some areas I am forbidden to use it by my governing body. I use Tectite fittings which allow for flexing and vibration and are very little bigger than solder ring fittings. Copper is really good as the pipe itself will output 65w pm @ 85c for 22O/D so a bonus there.

[Paul G2]

Copper pipe looks fabulous with nice brass Munsen ring supports, I have done a few like that but soldering is something I would never do on a boat, either electrical or plumbing, in fact some areas I am forbidden to use it by my governing body. I use Tectite fittings which allow for flexing and vibration and are very little bigger than solder ring fittings. Copper is really good as the pipe itself will output 65w pm @ 85c for 22O/D so a bonus there.

 

Is that because the solder fails due to vibration?

 

ETA Never heard of Tectite before but just looked them up and those fittings are totally cool, even if they do make my soldering skills obsolete.

Edited July 12, 2014 by Paul G2

[NMEA]

 

Is that because the solder fails due to vibration?

 

ETA Never heard of Tectite before but just looked them up and those fittings are totally cool, even if they do make my soldering skills obsolete.

Yes, vibration can be a big problem on some boats, static liveaboards less so but I still never solder even then despite it being pretty easy once you get everything clean. There are many boats with soldered pipework that are fine but also many that leak after a period so from my point of view it is better to eliminate every possibility of failure as far as I am able.

[smileypete]

 

Is that because the solder fails due to vibration?

 

ETA Never heard of Tectite before but just looked them up and those fittings are totally cool, even if they do make my soldering skills obsolete.

 

Well, put it this way, well made soldered water pipe joints will be fine 99% of the time for 98% of the people on this forum.

 

For instance, I'd avoid soldered joints near a back boiler, but push fit would be an even bigger no-no due to the O rings. Piping up a 28mm back boiler gravity system using Tectite fittings would be ruinously expensive!

 

So what sort of boat did you have in mind when you asked initially? If it's an offshore boat as you're based in US, you'd probably be better off asking on a more relevant forum like YBW or CruisersForums, I'd be interested in what they have to say. Maybe NMEA could give some details of instances where he'd seen failures, that would be interesting to hear too.

 

Personally I find helping people on here a bit wearisome to say the least. At least NMEA is very helpful with diesel heater problems so I don't mind him tooo much.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited July 12, 2014 by smileypete

[Guest]

Yes, vibration can be a big problem on some boats, static liveaboards less so but I still never solder even then despite it being pretty easy once you get everything clean. There are many boats with soldered pipework that are fine but also many that leak after a period so from my point of view it is better to eliminate every possibility of failure as far as I am able.

I always used to consider soldered joints as "proper" ones in plumbing, until pipework in a school I once worked started to deteriorate. It was failing right next to soldered joints. After that experience I would use nothing but compression, boat or home. Perhaps the soldering had been done poorly, but it was enough to make me a convert.

 

I used some copper in my boat, and agree it looks good.