Can anyone identify this motor?

[pete harrison]

All the boatmen I know did and still do use the terms LITTLE and BIG, a few used LARGE and SMALL, then followed by the builders town for a Yarwoods boat and the same for a Harland and Wollf but the Walkers boats were always RICKYS.

I am not suggesting 'Small' and 'Large' are historically correct terms, I just dislike 'Little' and 'Big'

[MtB]

All the boatmen I know did and still do use the terms LITTLE and BIG, a few used LARGE and SMALL, then followed by the builders town for a Yarwoods boat and the same for a Harland and Wollf but the Walkers boats were always RICKYS. Only the company itself seemed to use the letter references. Royalty boats have always been termed Royalty's.

 

Ok, just to see if I understand...

 

We get small, middle and large Northwich boats, so called because they were built in three hull depths by Yarwoods who were in Northwich.

 

We get small and large Woolwich boats, so called because they were built by Harland and Wolff in Woolwich.

 

We have boats called Rickys because they were built by Walkers of Rickmansworth. I think I've seen/heard these referred to colloquialy as big and small too.

 

Large Woolwich boats were mostly named after towns so get categorised as 'town class' boats by many modern enthusiasts.

Small Woolwich boats were mostly called after stars or constellations hence the contemporary categorisation 'star class'.

 

Royalty boats were built by someone else, somewhere else, I can't figure out who, or why they are called 'Royalty boats'. Is it to do with the names of the boats or did the builder call them that?

 

Where do the boats termed "grand union boats" fit into all this?

 

 

MtB

 

 

Edit to add another question. The Rickys were wooden boats I think, which is why there are so few left. Is that right?

Edited June 20, 2014 by Mike the Boilerman

[alan_fincher]

Royalty boats were built by someone else, somewhere else, I can't figure out who, or why they are called 'Royalty boats'. Is it to do with the names of the boats or did the builder call them that?

It's to do with the naming of the boats Edward & Alexandra, Henry & Anne, Victoria & Albert, etc

 

Where do the boats termed "grand union boats" fit into all this?

Boats owned by the "Grand Union Canal Carrying Co", so all the above, (although the Royalty boats were originally built for Associated Canal Carriers, before becoming part of the GUCCCo fleet - Mike Askin's "Victoria" is in ACC colours).

 

Edit to add another question. The Rickys were wooden boats I think, which is why there are so few left. Is that right?

Ricky boats were all wooden, but some other builders also built wooden boats as well. Just to confuse, Harland & Wolff built some prototype pairs of "Star" boats in wood. Edited June 20, 2014 by alan_fincher

[pete harrison]

 

Ok, just to see if I understand...

 

We get small, middle and large Northwich boats, so called because they were built in three hull depths by Yarwoods who were in Northwich.

 

We get small and large Woolwich boats, so called because they were built by Harland and Wolff in Woolwich.

 

We have boats called Rickys because they were built by Walkers of Rickmansworth. I think I've seen/heard these referred to colloquialy as big and small too.

 

Large Woolwich boats were mostly named after towns so get categorised as 'town class' boats by many modern enthusiasts.

Small Woolwich boats were mostly called after stars or constellations hence the contemporary categorisation 'star class'.

 

Royalty boats were built by someone else, somewhere else, I can't figure out who, or why they are called 'Royalty boats'. Is it to do with the names of the boats or did the builder call them that?

 

Where do the boats termed "grand union boats" fit into all this?

 

 

MtB

 

 

Edit to add another question. The Rickys were wooden boats I think, which is why there are so few left. Is that right?

All of the above are Grand Union Boats (Grand Union Canal Carrying Co. Ltd.), and you are correct in your understanding of boat types.

 

The 'Royalty' class comprise 7 new built pairs for Associated Canal Carriers Ltd., who in 1935 became Grand Union Canal Carrying Co. Ltd.. All of these boats are named of members of the Royal family or their positions - GEORGE and MARY (pair built by Steel Barrel Co., Uxbridge), DUKE, EDWARD, VICTORIA, WILLIAM (4 motors built by W.J. Yarwood & Sons Ltd., Northwich), HENRY, PRINCE (2 motors built by James Pollock, Sons & Co. Ltd., Faversham), ALBERT, PRINCESS (2 buttys built by Bushell Bros., Tring), ADELAIDE, ANNE (2 buttys built by W.H. Walker & Bros. Ltd., Rickmansworth), ALEXANDRA, DUCHESS (2 buttys built by E.G. Woods, Brentford).

 

edit - W.H. Walker & Bros. Ltd., Rickmansworth only built wooden boats throughout there entire history, although they did dock and repair metal hulled boats.

 

Grand Union Canal Carrying Co. Ltd. also had E.G. Woods, Brentford build three further wooden pairs, all built to the 'Small' standard.

Edited June 20, 2014 by pete harrison

[mark99]

Ok - opening it up further - Joshers were they all built for FMC and which boatyards built them?

[Laurence Hogg]

Ok - opening it up further - Joshers were they all built for FMC and which boatyards built them?

FMC had yards at Ocker Hill, Fazeley st, early construction, Saltley and Uxbridge, the latter two being the final ones in use.

They used as suppliers,

Braithwaite and Kirk of West Bromwich, Yarwood's of Northwich, Nursers of Braunston, Lees & Atkins of Polesworth, all supplied new boats.

Many boats were purchased second hand too which gives a wide diversity of builders.

[RLWP]

All the boatmen I know did and still do use the terms LITTLE and BIG, a few used LARGE and SMALL, then followed by the builders town for a Yarwoods boat and the same for a Harland and Wollf but the Walkers boats were always RICKYS.

 

Isn't this the whole problem of turning folk history into a definitive History? What one group of boat people called something won't necessarily be the same as what another group called it

 

Distinctive cultures can exist in extremely small groups

 

Richard

[MtB]

FMC had yards at Ocker Hill, Fazeley st, early construction, Saltley and Uxbridge, the latter two being the final ones in use.

They used as suppliers,

Braithwaite and Kirk of West Bromwich, Yarwood's of Northwich, Nursers of Braunston, Lees & Atkins of Polesworth, all supplied new boats.

Many boats were purchased second hand too which gives a wide diversity of builders.

 

So did all these firms build boats in the josher style specifically for FMC, or did FMC buy whatever design they buiilt?

 

I see Yarwoods built the josher KANGEROO, which is definitely not a Northwich!

 

 

MtB

[Derek R.]

There's probably a more well defined answer, but FMC stipulated fine swims, though the individual boatyards not owned by FMC did interpret their requirements sometimes slightly differently such as Braithwaite & Kirk. Some would say a Northwich built 'Josher' is not a true Josher, and only those built at Saltley were, but it's the kind of debate that splits hairs a bit.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Derek R.

[mark99]

Thanks for the replies. Who made the LMS boats? I have a soft spot for them.

[Athy]

These are modern 'enthusiast' terms and are not recognised amongst the learned

There is no harm in using them - indeed the epithets make these boats more readily recognisable for us laymen. Not that many chuff-chuff enthusiast would know what a Southern Railway V class locomotive was - but mention a "Schools Class" and they'd recognise the name straight away.

[mark99]

 

We have boats called Rickys because they were built by Walkers of Rickmansworth. I think I've seen/heard these referred to colloquialy as big and small too.

 

Yes - the HNBC weblist refers to such term - and in this forum, plenty of the fore-most and knowledgeable posters use "Little Ricky and Big Ricky". I would be interested in the difference between big and little Ricky.

 

Incidently I shall be in moored in Walkers Yard later today. Stocking up.

Edited June 21, 2014 by mark99

[pete harrison]

 

Yes - the HNBC weblist refers to such term - and in this forum, plenty of the fore-most and knowledgeable posters use "Little Ricky and Big Ricky". I would be interested in the difference between big and little Ricky.

'Small' and 'Large' Ricky are again terms only associated with the boats W.H. Walker & Bros Ltd., Rickmansworth built for the G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd., and of course they built boats for other carriers as well.

 

'Small' always means a nominal hull depth of 4'2'', whilst 'Large' always means a nominal hull depth of 4'9½'' - and both are only relevant to G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. narrow boats.

[Laurence Hogg]

Thanks for the replies. Who made the LMS boats? I have a soft spot for them.

 

The LMS boats were made by Yarwoods of Northwich and were designed to replace the "Shroppie fly" boats they had been using, hence the fine bow and stern, they were all built as open boats, except for the 6 cabin boats which were registered in Wolverhampton, the wooden members of their fleet were made at many yards, the inherited iron boats which came from the LNWR including the short "iron frigates" again came from many builders on the BCN.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Laurence Hogg

[mark99]

'Small' and 'Large' Ricky are again terms only associated with the boats W.H. Walker & Bros Ltd., Rickmansworth built for the G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd., and of course they built boats for other carriers as well.

 

'Small' always means a nominal hull depth of 4'2'', whilst 'Large' always means a nominal hull depth of 4'9½'' - and both are only relevant to G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. narrow boats.

Thanks; as I type this I'm moored outside the lock cottage formally inhabited by some of the Walkers. Earlier was in Walkers yard site now a large Tesco with canal moorings.

[mykaskin]

I understand, but don't quote me, that Yarwoods was told off by FMC for using their design of fore-end for other carriers in later years. Hence the rather unusual shape of the Cowpar and Cowburn boats. I think ACC (by then owned by the GUCC) when ordering the new (Royalty) boats already had the different fore-end design specified in the plans, which was used for the rest of the fleet.

 

Wooden boats also count planks, so I understand a 'Large Ricky' is a 6 planker as were the Royalty butties.

 

Mike

[IanM]

Might as well add to my topic from a few years back rather than start a new one so...

Having another trawl through my pictures I was wondering if anyone could identify this large Woolwich motor moored on the Tardebigge flight in 2003.

Unfortunately I don't have a better picture of it.  The butty entering the lock in the distance is Birmingham and Midland's 'Ash'.

Tardebigge Locks - Worcester and Birmingham Canal by Ian, on Flickr

[matty40s]

21 minutes ago, IanM said:

Might as well add to my topic from a few years back rather than start a new one so...

Having another trawl through my pictures I was wondering if anyone could identify this large Woolwich motor moored on the Tardebigge flight in 2003.

Unfortunately I don't have a better picture of it.  The butty entering the lock in the distance is Birmingham and Midland's 'Ash'.

Tardebigge Locks - Worcester and Birmingham Canal by Ian, on Flickr

I'm going to put my head on the block but think I recognise the dints of Halsall.

[davidg]

1 hour ago, IanM said:

large Woolwich motor

 

42 minutes ago, matty40s said:

I'm going to put my head on the block but think I recognise the dints of Halsall.

Ahem.

 

Beaulieu would be my informed guess knowing the people involved.

[Athy]

50 minutes ago, matty40s said:

 the dints of Halsall.

Could be a film title: Harry Potter And...

[pete harrison]

19 hours ago, davidg said:

Beaulieu would be my informed guess knowing the people involved.

I would also go with BEAULIEU 

[alan_fincher]

22 hours ago, IanM said:

Might as well add to my topic from a few years back rather than start a new one so...

Having another trawl through my pictures I was wondering if anyone could identify this large Woolwich motor moored on the Tardebigge flight in 2003.

Unfortunately I don't have a better picture of it.  The butty entering the lock in the distance is Birmingham and Midland's 'Ash'.

Tardebigge Locks - Worcester and Birmingham Canal by Ian, on Flickr

Is this a picture of a brief pause in proceedings whilst a crew try to work out how they have managed to get motor and butty pointing in different directions whilst working a lock flight?

 

(Not a serious question, before Ian tells us what B&M motor is actually working up the flight ahead of Ash!......)

[IanM]

10 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Is this a picture of a brief pause in proceedings whilst a crew try to work out how they have managed to get motor and butty pointing in different directions whilst working a lock flight?

 

(Not a serious question, before Ian tells us what B&M motor is actually working up the flight ahead of Ash!......)

That would be quite an impressive achievement! 

Indeed, Graham had steamed off ahead on the motor leaving 5 of us to drag the butty up the flight.

[RLWP]

29 minutes ago, IanM said:

That would be quite an impressive achievement! 

Indeed, Graham had steamed off ahead on the motor leaving 5 of us to drag the butty up the flight.

I've seen a boat accidentally turned through 90 degrees in the middle of the Delph

Richard

[alan_fincher]

2 hours ago, RLWP said:

I've seen a boat accidentally turned through 90 degrees in the middle of the Delph

Richard

It's possible with a 40 foot boat even in the Audlem flight, but if the level in the pound then drops, you can't then turn it back to the right direction - but please don't ask us how we know this!