Improving onboard Mobile communications

[jetzi]

15 minutes ago, rogeriko said:

5g is transmitted at different frequencies that utilise much higher radio frequencies 28 ghz compared to 700 mhz - 2500 mhz for 4G so your antenna will not work.

 

Thanks. That makes sense. What I will need is an antenna that can work on both 4G and 5G (and preferably also 3G) because 5G isn't ubiquitous, especially in the country.

[rogeriko]

Can you borrow a 5g phone just to try the video calls to see if it helps? An ethernet cable will greatly increase the speed between laptop and router. Must have for good video. A good 4g signal will support video.

[rogeriko]

5ghz wifi is fast but not many phones support it on tethering mode. I know this is not your situation but just for information  http://support.heartv.com/miscellaneous/5ghz-devices Is a list of phones that transmit 5ghz tethering. 5gz wifi is as fast as 5g cellular data.

A 5g phone with 5ghz internet tethering is a lot cheaper than that router.

[jetzi]

4 minutes ago, rogeriko said:

A 5g phone with 5ghz internet tethering is a lot cheaper than that router.

 

Well, 5G phones are also quite expensive, and don't support plugging in an external antenna (nor ethernet cables which I need for some equipment) which has been in my experience the biggest impact on getting a good signal. I used to put my 4G phone in an ice cream tub on the roof, but this is not really a workable solution and certainly inferior to the mast.

 

I get where you are coming from, but if I could get full WiFi speed from my cellular connection I would be quite happy. And yes I am prepared to spend a grand or more on this as it is my bread and butter. I'm very frugal in other aspects! I know not everyone is in my situation but I'm prepared to spend whatever it takes and suffer considerable inconvenience to get the best connection speeds available.

[Richard10002]

1 hour ago, jetzi said:

 

Thanks. That makes sense. What I will need is an antenna that can work on both 4G and 5G (and preferably also 3G) because 5G isn't ubiquitous, especially in the country.

Solwise is usually my first port of call for this kind of stuff. 
 

https://www.solwise.co.uk/3g-antenna-outdoor.htm

 

They do a Poynting 5G antenna for a hundred quid, (2x2).

[GUMPY]

I find it interesting that you say 4g is not fast enough for video calls. We run 4g at home and have often had two HD video streams running simultaneously, also we run video calls with no drop out. Speed is on average 75+mbs down and 40mbs up often higher down, we are 200mtrs from the mast.

Conversely on our mooring we are lucky to see 5mbs and it does drop out mainly due to the number of users on that particular cell. I suggest that your problem is one of location rather than 4g not being fast enough. 

Remember 5g is very localised and not available in most of the country and will be severely affected by the length of any cable between the aerial and router.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Loddon

[Rob-M]

Video calls is not just about bandwidth, jitter will have a big impact on the quality.

[GUMPY]

38 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

Video calls is not just about bandwidth, jitter will have a big impact on the quality.

Mine is down between 7 and 15ms seems reasonable enough😎

[GUMPY]

5 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Mine is down between 7 and 15ms seems reasonable enough😎

Oops it's down to 4😁

 

A lot depends on which of my WiFi I am logged on to.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Loddon

[jetzi]

1 hour ago, Loddon said:

I find it interesting that you say 4g is not fast enough for video calls. We run 4g at home and have often had two HD video streams running simultaneously, also we run video calls with no drop out. Speed is on average 75+mbs down and 40mbs up often higher down, we are 200mtrs from the mast.

Conversely on our mooring we are lucky to see 5mbs and it does drop out mainly due to the number of users on that particular cell. I suggest that your problem is one of location rather than 4g not being fast enough. 

Remember 5g is very localised and not available in most of the country and will be severely affected by the length of any cable between the aerial and router.

 

I definitely agree that it's mostly about location. I'm a CCer so I am always in a new location. I measure the signal strength with my phone whenever I moor up to ensure that I have reasonable strength LTE or LTE+.

 

Even at its best, it is just not quite there for me. I can, do, and have been using it for a couple of years now. And it's just a smidge below adequate. For me the problem seems to mostly (but not only) be on the upload - I tend to freeze or my audio drops out, while I can still hear the folks on the other end.

 

Yes I realise that 5G is very localised, but judging from the EE map (https://coverage.ee.co.uk/coverage/ee) it is looking very much like an option to me.

Most of these antennae come with a 5m cable built in. Would you suggest it would be worth cutting that down to say 2-3m and reducing the height of the mast if necessary?

[GUMPY]

24 minutes ago, jetzi said:

Most of these antennae come with a 5m cable built in. Would you suggest it would be worth cutting that down to say 2-3m and reducing the height of the mast if necessary?

In a perfect world I would go for a waterproof 5g router which has an ethernet connection out to a separate WiFi inside the boat removing any cable losses.

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Loddon

[jetzi]

16 minutes ago, Loddon said:

In a perfect world I would go for something waterproof which has an ethernet connection out to a separate WiFi inside the boat removing any cable losses.

I actually suggested that on this forum a while back when I was putting in my current system, and I was told that it was foolish to put an expensive router outside. Maybe it's worth trying.

[IanD]

11 hours ago, rogeriko said:

5g is faster than wifi. The router will recieve the data quickly but it cannot send it by wifi to your devices as fast as it recieves it.

Does your phone recieve 5g.

5g is transmitted at different frequencies that utilise much higher radio frequencies 28 ghz compared to 700 mhz - 2500 mhz for 4G so your antenna will not work.

 

The only place 5G uses 28GHz is -- well, almost nowhere in the UK, but anyway it will only ever be rolled out in towns and cities with dense populations because the range is so short that you need basestations a few hundred meters apart.

 

Everywhere else -- meaning, most placers boaters will go in the UK -- 5G uses similar frequency bands to 4G. The total capacity and speed is higher than 4G because of more advanced signal processing (massive MIMO) and increased bandwidth, so it will give higher data rates where 5G basestations are installed -- which today pretty much means only in towns and cities, but will spread out in future.

 

https://5g.co.uk/guides/best-5g-router/

 

5G routers are becoming more commonplace, you don't need to pay £700 for one -- unless you want an outdoor one like this...

 

https://www.broadbandbuyer.com/products/42609-zyxel-nr7101-eu01v1f/

 

Or use an internal 5G router with an external antenna, probably cheaper...

 

https://5g.co.uk/guides/external-5g-mobile-broadband-antennas/

Edited October 4, 2021 by IanD

[1st ade]

16 minutes ago, IanD said:

The only place 5G uses 28GHz is -- well, almost nowhere in the UK, but anyway it will only ever be rolled out in towns and cities with dense populations because the range is so short that you need basestations a few hundred meters apart

I think one application for 28 GHz is shopping mall's - almost outside each store - so you you can watch the in store video before you go in...

[IanD]

1 minute ago, 1st ade said:

I think one application for 28 GHz is shopping mall's - almost outside each store - so you you can watch the in store video before you go in...

Not an application that the OP is likely to be interested in, though... 😉

[1st ade]

50 minutes ago, IanD said:

Not an application that the OP is likely to be interested in, though... 😉

I'm sorry; I was replying to the member who replied to the the member who replied to the OP... There are some stupidly high frequency bands, designated for very high bandwidth very short range services (under 5G) which will give immense benefit to the few; those who are sat in the corner of a football stadium and want to see (again) the last goal in Slo Mo that they actually saw in real life a few seconds ago.

 

I agree with @IanD that technically these are part of the 5G allocation (but practically the thin end of FA use)

[jetzi]

  

1 hour ago, IanD said:

Everywhere else -- meaning, most placers boaters will go in the UK -- 5G uses similar frequency bands to 4G. The total capacity and speed is higher than 4G because of more advanced signal processing (massive MIMO) and increased bandwidth, so it will give higher data rates where 5G basestations are installed -- which today pretty much means only in towns and cities, but will spread out in future.

 

That's interesting to know that not all 5G is made equal, thanks. The EE coverage map I linked to shows a fair bit of 5G coverage over areas I'm likely to go, and it is expanding. However I realise that it may not be a huge improvement over 4G, I don't necessarily need a huge improvement - some small improvement would be great. For me I think it's worth considering.

 

I'll check out the routers you linked, thanks. The expensive router does have nice additional features, - for one, it is dual SIM, allowing me to add a second network's SIM card as a failover.

 

 

 

[IanD]

Just now, jetzi said:

  

 

That's interesting to know that not all 5G is made equal, thanks. The EE coverage map I linked to shows a fair bit of 5G coverage over areas I'm likely to go, and it is expanding. However I realise that it may not be a huge improvement over 4G, I don't necessarily need a huge improvement - some small improvement would be great. For me I think it's worth considering.

 

I'll check out the routers you linked, thanks. The expensive router does have nice additional features, - for one, it is dual SIM, allowing me to add a second network's SIM card as a failover.

 

 

If you do have 5G coverage then the data rates are likely to be considerably higher than 4G, depending on network loading you could easily expect to see 2x-3x the rate.

 

Note that if you really want to see high data rates you need to read the small print of the router specification carefully. For example the Zyxel one is designed for 5G NR ("New radio") architectures including things like being able to simultaneously use two radio links, and also uses 4x4 MIMO to support this -- meaning, it has at least 4 antennae (actually it has 6) and uses beamforming to increase data rates:

 

https://www.routerdistributor.com/zyxel/zyxel-5g-routers/zyxel-5g-router-nr7101/

 

A lot of (most?) "consumer" 5G routers can't do this, most are 2x2 MIMO as are all ones which can use external antennae.

 

Note that the Zyxel router needs PoE (Power over Ethernet) so you might also need an adaptor for this, but they're less than £20.

[IanD]

Another solution (similarly expensive, around £550+VAT) is a 5G router (which runs off 12V) with an external 5G 4x4 MIMO aerial, like these...

 

https://www.3grouterstore.co.uk/3G/Proroute-H685-WRT-HSPA--M2M-3G-Router---Industrial-Grade-3G-router-with-LAN-and-WAN-Ethernet-and-N-Wireless-H685-5G-Router.html#SID=1336

 

https://www.3grouterstore.co.uk/3G/FB4X4MIMO-5G-Fullband-4X4-MiMo-5G-external-omni-directional-antenna-FB4X4MIMO-5G.html#SID=1341

 

https://www.3grouterstore.co.uk/3G/Poynting-XPOL-1-5G-Omni-4-4-MIMO-4G-5G-Antenna-XPOL-1-5G-4x4.html#SID=1347

[john6767]

On 04/10/2021 at 10:00, Loddon said:

Oops it's down to 4😁

 

A lot depends on which of my WiFi I am logged on to.

If that is on mobile, I would say it is good enough for anything most normal people need to do.  The upload speed is better the the FTC connection I have at home.  Ping and jitter are not bad for mobile either,  it not as good as a fixed connection where you would have a sub 10ms ping and sub 1ms jitter.

[GUMPY]

24 minutes ago, john6767 said:

If that is on mobile, I would say it is good enough for anything most normal people need to do.  The upload speed is better the the FTC connection I have at home.  Ping and jitter are not bad for mobile either,  it not as good as a fixed connection where you would have a sub 10ms ping and sub 1ms jitter.

Yes that is with "3" it does vary but we are < 250yds from the local mast. Wasn't going to a get BT FTTC as everyone else on the estate is getting a third of that at best, no matter who the supplier is. 

Its run through a Huawei B818 which was not cheap, changed because the free "3" B525 before that only gave 25-35mbs

Most of the variance comes from Wifi interferance from neighbours so I monitor what frequencies they are on and move mine accordingly, all the high bandwidth stuff is on ethernet,  not that I wear an anorack

 

Edited October 6, 2021 by Loddon

[john6767]

3 hours ago, Loddon said:

Yes that is with "3" it does vary but we are < 250yds from the local mast. Wasn't going to a get BT FTTC as everyone else on the estate is getting a third of that at best, no matter who the supplier is. 

Its run through a Huawei B818 which was not cheap, changed because the free "3" B525 before that only gave 25-35mbs

Most of the variance comes from Wifi interferance from neighbours so I monitor what frequencies they are on and move mine accordingly, all the high bandwidth stuff is on ethernet,  not that I wear an anorack

 

At home I have 75 down, 20 up with FTTC, about 200 yards from the cabinet.  We do have full fibre available now as well, but it is more money and I don't think I would use the additional bandwidth at this point, so sticking where I am for now.

 

On the boat I just use my iPhone as a router on Three, but have been thinking of going for a router and external aerial on the boat, but it is annoying that would be another unlimited sim @ £20 a month.  I was thinking perhaps trying Smarty for the boat and just having it over the summer when we are on the boat a lot, assuming their sims will work ok in a router.

[IanD]

If you're close to a basestation then any 4G router or access point will be fine, maybe just a standard internal one placed inside a window -- or even a phone used as a wireless hotspot.

 

The problem comes if you still need reasonable data rates in locations where the signal may be a lot weaker (or the highest possible rates in good 4G/5G coverage areas), then you need a decent external aerial and probably a higher-performance (more expensive!) router like the ones mentioned above.

 

But even this doesn't guarantee decent data rates out in the middle of nowhere, Starlink is probably the only option here but it's *very* expensive (£500 setup + £90/month).

 

As usual, you pays yer money and you takes yer choice...

Edited October 6, 2021 by IanD

[Rob-M]

1 hour ago, john6767 said:

At home I have 75 down, 20 up with FTTC, about 200 yards from the cabinet.  We do have full fibre available now as well, but it is more money and I don't think I would use the additional bandwidth at this point, so sticking where I am for now.

 

On the boat I just use my iPhone as a router on Three, but have been thinking of going for a router and external aerial on the boat, but it is annoying that would be another unlimited sim @ £20 a month.  I was thinking perhaps trying Smarty for the boat and just having it over the summer when we are on the boat a lot, assuming their sims will work ok in a router.

I'm using a smarty SIM n a router, no issues with it. I just pay for a month when we are on the boat, £20 if we want unlimited or I switch to a cheaper plan if only gong out for a week.

[john6767]

1 hour ago, Rob-M said:

I'm using a smarty SIM n a router, no issues with it. I just pay for a month when we are on the boat, £20 if we want unlimited or I switch to a cheaper plan if only gong out for a week.

Thanks, that was my thought.  I will look into a router and aerial over the winter!