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Improving onboard Mobile communications


KJT

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30 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Despite having dabbled in physics in my wild youth I have next to no understanding of how antennae work.

 

I was having a little read of this article about the basics: https://grouptestwinner.com/external-4g-antenna-aerial/

 

It goes on to say you should buy a MIMO (multi input, multi output) antenna so that you can take advantage of this.

 

These units have two antennae within one casing, and have two cables coming out that go to your 4G router.

 

It struck me though that these antennae are basically co-located.

 

Wouldn't it be more effective then to have two antennae mounted on seperate masts at either end of my 65' bote?

This way I'll get a stronger signal when the signal is stronger fore, stronger signal when the signal is stronger aft, and strongest signal when there is good signal at both ends and they can work together?

Cable losses would far outweigh any gain achieved by locating the antennas for and aft.

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26 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Despite having dabbled in physics in my wild youth I have next to no understanding of how antennae work.

 

I was having a little read of this article about the basics: https://grouptestwinner.com/external-4g-antenna-aerial/

 

It goes on to say you should buy a MIMO (multi input, multi output) antenna so that you can take advantage of this.

 

These units have two antennae within one casing, and have two cables coming out that go to your 4G router.

 

It struck me though that these antennae are basically co-located.

 

Wouldn't it be more effective then to have two antennae mounted on seperate masts at either end of my 65' bote?

This way I'll get a stronger signal when the signal is stronger fore, stronger signal when the signal is stronger aft, and strongest signal when there is good signal at both ends and they can work together?

I got heavily into antenna construction in an earlier life with ham radio. Building phased arrays (i.e. Multiple antennas) for the 40M band (7MHz). All these 4G ones are fancy phased arrays but the half wavelength is now mm's rather than meters so they all fit in a little box. Despite the claims of omnidirectional, mine has better gain in certain directions and it can boost the signal by 5dB by rotating it.

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Thank you! I gave up on the idea of antennae located in different spots because I read elsewhere that the cable length should be kept to under 5m due to signal attenuation.

 

I have narrowed down what I'm looking for:

1. Omni directional MIMO 4G antenna.

 - Mounted on 4m tall mast

 - 5m cables leaving 1m to get from the roof to the router

 - As per @WotEver's article, the Poynting A0001 (XPOL-1 or XPOL-A1) is the obvious choice.

2. Wi-fi router (mi-fi / mobile hotspot)

 - Connections for above antenna
 - 12V power supply

 - Dual SIM with failover functionality (hard to find)

 - fast 802.11n WiFi

 

Just need to choose a model of router now.

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4 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

2. Wi-fi router (mi-fi / mobile hotspot)

 - Connections for above antenna
 - 12V power supply

 - Dual SIM with failover functionality (hard to find)

 - fast 802.11n WiFi

 

Just need to choose a model of router now.

Probably said it before, but both Dr Bob and I have the poynting antenna on an extendable pole attached to a Teltonika router

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30 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Thank you! I gave up on the idea of antennae located in different spots because I read elsewhere that the cable length should be kept to under 5m due to signal attenuation.

 

I have narrowed down what I'm looking for:

1. Omni directional MIMO 4G antenna.

 - Mounted on 4m tall mast

 - 5m cables leaving 1m to get from the roof to the router

 - As per @WotEver's article, the Poynting A0001 (XPOL-1 or XPOL-A1) is the obvious choice.

2. Wi-fi router (mi-fi / mobile hotspot)

 - Connections for above antenna
 - 12V power supply

 - Dual SIM with failover functionality (hard to find)

 - fast 802.11n WiFi

 

Just need to choose a model of router now.

 

25 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Probably said it before, but both Dr Bob and I have the poynting antenna on an extendable pole attached to a Teltonika router

My teltonika router switches sims on low signal etc and can be set to reboot on no response to a ping.

 

27 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Probably said it before, but both Dr Bob and I have the poynting antenna on an extendable pole attached to a Teltonika router

I have heard that bra underwires work well if phased properly.

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17 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

My teltonika router switches sims on low signal etc and can be set to reboot on no response to a ping.

It can be set up for a whole load of stuff, operated by SMS, it can even make your tea if you are away in the Phillipines.Hope they bring out a 5g version sometime.

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3 hours ago, rusty69 said:

It can be set up for a whole load of stuff, operated by SMS, it can even make your tea if you are away in the Phillipines.Hope they bring out a 5g version sometime.

We've got ours set up with Alexa so Alexa can talk to the router and the router talk to Alexa. They spend all evening arguing with each other. The duck doesnt get a look in.

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11 hours ago, rusty69 said:

Probably said it before, but both Dr Bob and I have the poynting antenna on an extendable pole attached to a Teltonika router

Apologies, I get lost when threads go above 4 or 5 pages!!

 

Is it the Teltonika RUT955 that you have? I see Solwise sells it through Amazon for 191 gbp, it costs a little more on their website (207.41 gbp).

 

@Dr Bob @rusty69 Do you use the full 5m length that comes with the Poynting? I am a bit worried about the attenuation over that length?

 

I spoke to a friend who knows networking and suggested that I mount the modem itself in a weatherproof box next to the antenna up the mast. And then run the wifi down over ethernet to a wifi repeater. You get those USB dongles that are mobile modems lacking wifi, but I haven't ever seen something like that that can take an external antenna.

 

I suppose you could do that with the Teltonika. Just run the WiFi antennae down into the boat cabin. Would attenuation be an issue with that too?

 

Thanks for the tips I'm slowly starting to learn what some of this means...

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14 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Apologies, I get lost when threads go above 4 or 5 pages!!

 

Is it the Teltonika RUT955 that you have? I see Solwise sells it through Amazon for 191 gbp, it costs a little more on their website (207.41 gbp).

 

@Dr Bob @rusty69 Do you use the full 5m length that comes with the Poynting? I am a bit worried about the attenuation over that length?

 

I spoke to a friend who knows networking and suggested that I mount the modem itself in a weatherproof box next to the antenna up the mast. And then run the wifi down over ethernet to a wifi repeater. You get those USB dongles that are mobile modems lacking wifi, but I haven't ever seen something like that that can take an external antenna.

 

I suppose you could do that with the Teltonika. Just run the WiFi antennae down into the boat cabin. Would attenuation be an issue with that too?

 

Thanks for the tips I'm slowly starting to learn what some of this means...

I have the Rut955, I believe @Dr Bob has the Rut 950.I think the main difference is mine has a built-in GPS. 

 

I use the cable supplied, it is wired into the antenna and has plugs on the end which would need to be reattached if your shortened the cable I too believe there is a large signal attenuation caused by cable length, and in fact get a better signal when the antenna is lower down the pole in some places. 

 

I bought my router and antenna off ebay. I think 130 quid for both. 

 

Not sure I would want to stick a 200 quid router in a box up a mast, but can see why you would want to. 

 

Although I have the WiFi antennas attached, I don't think the range is that good. We added a WiFi repeater to get the signal down the entire length of our 70ft boat. 

Edited by rusty69
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16 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Apologies, I get lost when threads go above 4 or 5 pages!!

 

Is it the Teltonika RUT955 that you have? I see Solwise sells it through Amazon for 191 gbp, it costs a little more on their website (207.41 gbp).

 

@Dr Bob @rusty69 Do you use the full 5m length that comes with the Poynting? I am a bit worried about the attenuation over that length?

 

I spoke to a friend who knows networking and suggested that I mount the modem itself in a weatherproof box next to the antenna up the mast. And then run the wifi down over ethernet to a wifi repeater. You get those USB dongles that are mobile modems lacking wifi, but I haven't ever seen something like that that can take an external antenna.

 

I suppose you could do that with the Teltonika. Just run the WiFi antennae down into the boat cabin. Would attenuation be an issue with that too?

 

Thanks for the tips I'm slowly starting to learn what some of this means...

No, I certainly wouldnt put the router outside (in a waterproof box) as there are too many electrickty things to go wrong (condensation etc). I dont think the losses are too bad over 5M and thats what we use. It's only rarely that poor signal is that much of a problem if you have 2 different sims. Funnily enough, we are tonight in a pretty poor area (on the Ashby south of Hinkley). My EE sim is showing a -89dB signal and is limping along (surprisingly weak) but ok for downloading but struggling to stream. The 3 sim has a signal strength of -65dB, so much better, but speed is awful and I cant even browse the internet properly (not surprising as this happens a lot with 3. I think we will try and move down to Sutton Stop tomorrow if it isnt pouring with rain as there will be a more reliable signal there. It isnt always about signal strength.

Edited by Dr Bob
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3 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

No, I certainly wouldnt put the router outside (in a waterproof box) as there are too many electrickty things to go wrong (condensation etc). I dont think the losses are too bad over 5M and thats what we use. It's only rarely that poor signal is that much of a problem if you have 2 different sims. Funnily enough, we are tonight in a pretty poor area (on the Ashby south of Hinkley). My EE sim is showing a -89dB signal and is limping along (surprisingly weak) but ok for downloading but struggling to stream. The 3 sim has a signal strength of -65dB, so much better, but speed is awful and I cant even browse the internet properly (not surprising as this happens a lot with 3. I think we will try and move down to Sutton Stop tomorrow if it isnt pouring with rain as there will be a more reliable signal there. It isnt always about signal strength.

There is a signal to noise (snr) ratio display on the router. Worth looking at along with the signal strength. Think we are on - 79dB on EE at the moment. 

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9 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I have the Rut955, I believe @Dr Bob has the Rut 950.I think the main difference is mine has a built-in GPS. 

 

 

Yep, I have the 950. Cracking piece of kit.

Will upgrade to the 5G version when they get round to launching one.

Just now, rusty69 said:

There is a signal to noise (snr) ratio display on the router. Worth looking at along with the signal strength. Think we are on - 79dB on EE at the moment. 

Where do I find that?

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5 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Where do I find that?

On the overview page,on the mobile header, hit the i button and select detailed information. SNR is about half way down (well, it is on my superior rut955) 

It also details signal power and quality. 

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10 minutes ago, WotEver said:

A stone’s throw from me then. 

 

Maybe I should start throwing stones... :D

Which direction.

I will  throw some back!!

3 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

On the overview page,on the mobile header, hit the i button and select detailed information. SNR is about half way down (well, it is on my superior rut955) 

Ok, done that.

I can see a line SINR

Guess that is it.

.

.

.

.

For a value it says N/A.

.......bloody inferior tat!

 

On the bright side, the EE signal has now gone to -67dB and is now streaming ok. The 3 sim is still on a go slow.

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5 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Ok, done that.

I can see a line SINR

Guess that is it.

.

.

.

.

For a value it says N/A.

.......bloody inferior tat!

Mine says - 0.5dB.

7 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

On the bright side, the EE signal has now gone to -67dB and is now streaming ok. The 3 sim is still on a go slow.

You lucky bastard. I dream of getting - 67dB.

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4 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Which direction.

I will  throw some back!!

We’re not really that close... just the north side of bridge 4 (I think it’s 4 - the one with the mainline railway on it). Look due north at that point and you’ll see some houses and a school, three fields away. 

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3 minutes ago, WotEver said:

We’re not really that close... just the north side of bridge 4 (I think it’s 4 - the one with the mainline railway on it). Look due north at that point and you’ll see some houses and a school, three fields away. 

Ok, I know where you mean.

We are on the Armco on the 90degree bend north of Bramcote. Lovely day bote down from Stoke Golding to here today. Cracking countryside.

11 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Mine says - 0.5dB.

You lucky bastard. I dream of getting - 67dB.

Try poking it with your bra underwire?

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2 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

We are on the Armco on the 90degree bend north of Bramcote.

I know it well. Bramcote is a 5 minute drive away. 

 

A little aside. A few years ago as we cruised past the line of moored boats just up from that bend we noted that several (most?) of them had brand new cratch covers, all identical in style, all made by Kinver Canopies. We guessed they had got together and done a bulk deal. 

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After a bit more reading I am now firmly on the train of thought that the modem needs to be located next to the antenna - i.e. up the mast. I feel like going to all the effort and expense of putting an antenna up just seems a little unjustified if you then go and use long cables.

 

First prize therefore would be a basic dual sim modem with antenna plugs and an rj45 out. Then I can raise the mast to any height I like (well, accounting for the power lines they love to string above canals) and I don't have to worry about attenuation over my cat5e cable.

 

Then I plug the cable into a wifi repeater or two as necessary inside the boat.

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25 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

After a bit more reading I am now firmly on the train of thought that the modem needs to be located next to the antenna - i.e. up the mast. I feel like going to all the effort and expense of putting an antenna up just seems a little unjustified if you then go and use long cables.

 

First prize therefore would be a basic dual sim modem with antenna plugs and an rj45 out. Then I can raise the mast to any height I like (well, accounting for the power lines they love to string above canals) and I don't have to worry about attenuation over my cat5e cable.

 

Then I plug the cable into a wifi repeater or two as necessary inside the boat.

If you are going to do that, do you really need the antenna at all?

 

We used to stick a USB dongle in a tuperware box up a mast 10 years ago. You still need to run a power cable up to it, obvs. 

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9 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

If you are going to do that, do you really need the antenna at all?

 

We used to stick a USB dongle in a tuperware box up a mast 10 years ago. You still need to run a power cable up to it, obvs. 

You're right, I may well not need the antenna. I could see how it works with the router's default antennae and if I still want MOAR POWER then I can always add it later.

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1 minute ago, ivan&alice said:

You're right, I may well not need the antenna. I could see how it works with the router's default antennae and if I still want MOAR POWER then I can always add it later.

I think it all depends on what functionality you need from the router. I remember having what you suggest on my lumpy water boat 10 years ago with a fairly rudimentary 'router' at the top of the pole. It lasted a few years despite being well sealed.

My router is now £150 with a lot of stuff it can do, like switching sims, rebooting itself (needed if I am off the boat), control over priorities etc etc. I just wouldn't want to risk that at the top of the pole. 

We use the 5M cables, but they could be shortened. In practice though, it is not an issue. In the past 3 years with this system, we have never been without a usable system.....except for last night till the EE sim woke up. We cruise mainly in the midlands and out of winter we are in new places most nights. Either the EE or the 3 sim work. Even in the black holes of Lower Heyford and Braunston. 

We have more of a problem with 3 having strongish signals but little speed.

I wouldn't try and complicate it. 

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14 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

Apologies, I get lost when threads go above 4 or 5 pages!!

 

Is it the Teltonika RUT955 that you have? I see Solwise sells it through Amazon for 191 gbp, it costs a little more on their website (207.41 gbp).

 

@Dr Bob @rusty69 Do you use the full 5m length that comes with the Poynting? I am a bit worried about the attenuation over that length?

 

I spoke to a friend who knows networking and suggested that I mount the modem itself in a weatherproof box next to the antenna up the mast. And then run the wifi down over ethernet to a wifi repeater. You get those USB dongles that are mobile modems lacking wifi, but I haven't ever seen something like that that can take an external antenna.

 

I suppose you could do that with the Teltonika. Just run the WiFi antennae down into the boat cabin. Would attenuation be an issue with that too?

 

Thanks for the tips I'm slowly starting to learn what some of this means...

Since my original post I replaced the two separate aerials (to get the 4g service) with a single 4g aerial, also from Connex Technologies. https://www.connextech.co.uk/lmo7270-wb-smsm---4g3ggsm-mimo-outdoor-omni-antenna-1153-p.asp

 

I specified 10m cables (as per the original aerials I fitted) and found it works superbly, even in the remotest of locations.

 

I don't think 5g will be so widespread in the near future, certainly in remote canal locations, to warrent changing the setup for a year or so yet.

Regarding 5g routers, many routers are labelled 5g when I understand they refer to the frequency, I think 5200mhz, not to 5g, the 5th generatation of the mobile network.

 

I am not so sure fitting the router itself atop a mast would be a good idea for several reasons. I would think that the routers internal aerial is not as sophisticated as the purpose made ones. I could be wrong on that though. And risk of water ingress and physical damage due to its vulnerable location when continually raising and lowering the mast.

 

Ken

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