Mooring on private land on the Thames

[andollie]

Hi,

I'm looking into moving onto a widebeam in the Surrey (Surbiton) area. I've heard residential moorings are hard to come by, so I'm wondering if it's possible to find a local farmer or land owner, with land backing onto the Thames and renting a mooring off them?

What license would I need?
Would the land owner need planning permission?
What else would I and the land owner need to stay legal?

Thanks

Andy

[kevinl]

Hi Andy

 

If I were you I'd try buying a magic lamp and rubbing But if you find somewhere then you'll need to licence the boat which depends on the length but call it about £750 a year then CRT charge an "end of garden" mooring fee usually around half the local marina rate so say around £2K then you need to pay the landowner whatever you agree. The landowner will need to make sure he's covered in case you fall over on his/her land as you'll be a tenant so Health and Safety will apply, plus you need access with the shopping, somewhere to get water, get rid of your rubbish and poo, electricity too where will that come from? CRT may have an issue with you doing it too, blocking navigation or simply they don't want you to start a trend.

Whilst I genuinely wish you the very best of luck I personally don't fancy your chances, but if you have a nice looking cow I have some magic beans I'm looking to swap and some of the giants up the beanstalks are well treasured up.

Others will no doubt be along with bigger hurdles that the ones I've mentioned but that's roughly the position.

K

[junior]

I know nothing about the Thames, but would you need a CRT licence? I thought it was EA waters?

[blackrose]

I know nothing about the Thames, but would you need a CRT licence? I thought it was EA waters?

Yes you're right. Kevinl is misinformed if he thinks CRT administer the Thames. Perhaps one day, but at the moment it's the EA.

 

Having lived and moored against someone's garden at Wraysbury for 3 years I'd say it's probably easier to find a mooring on the Thames for a widebeam than on the southern GU for example (where I also moored for 5 years).

 

However, proper residential moorings are hard to find anywhere (river or canal). In theory anywhere residential requires planning permission, but as an unofficial liveaboard you're generally left alone on a garden end mooring on the Thames unless you become a nuisance and your land-based neighbors complain about you.

 

But Thames moorings are not cheap. I was paying £350/month for my mooring and that was considered cheap, plus about £1000/year for my licence (length x beam).

 

I think riperian rights, in which landowners also own the riverbed, begin at Staines and go upstream, but I'm not sure if those who moor further downstream have to pay the EA additional fees for garden end moorings? Where Riperian rights exist additional fees do not apply.

 

The other thing of course is that living and mooring long-term on any river liable to flooding requires a bit more skill and preparation than mooring on a canal.

Edited May 28, 2014 by blackrose

[Mike on the Wey]

Surbiton is suburban south west London, and you'll be hard pressed to find a farm.

[mark99]

Surbiton is suburban south west London, and you'll be hard pressed to find a farm.

 

Tom Goods surbiton smallholding? (actually it was filmed in Northwood).

 

If you are pressed for time you could moor it in a Thames marina like Penton Hook (not cheap) whilst you research EOG moorings.

 

We know someone who is a livaboard widebeam <albeit a static boat> in Surbiton - it's a small marina - not sure if any vacancies at the mo?

Edited May 28, 2014 by mark99

[Alan de Enfield]

Surbiton - Residential and leisure moorings

 

http://www.tdmmarine.co.uk/moorings.html

 

60 ft residential £7500 per annum

 

I think the stories about moorings being hard to come by are somewhat exagerated. "Londoners" that see boating as a cheap way of living are then reluctant to pay 'the going rates' for moorings as it no longer becomes such a cheap way of living - hence moorings at an 'acceptable' price may be difficult to find.

[MtB]

Surbiton - Residential and leisure moorings

 

http://www.tdmmarine.co.uk/moorings.html

 

60 ft residential £7500 per annum

 

I think the stories about moorings being hard to come by are somewhat exagerated. "Londoners" that see boating as a cheap way of living are then reluctant to pay 'the going rates' for moorings as it no longer becomes such a cheap way of living - hence moorings at an 'acceptable' price may be difficult to find.

 

Yep, you've hit the head on the nail there Alan, or something like that.

 

Even so, £7,500 PA is still very cheap accommodation for London. I bet they don't have any space available. Engineers Wharf in Brentford always seems to have space though at a similar price, mainly due to the complete absence of parking and tube stations nearby, ISTR. Not on the Thames though like the OP wants.

 

MtB

[Mrs Trackman]

 

Yep, you've hit the head on the nail there Alan, or something like that.

 

 

Even so, £7,500 PA is still very cheap accommodation for London. I bet they don't have any space available. Engineers Wharf in Brentford always seems to have space though at a similar price, mainly due to the complete absence of parking and tube stations nearby, ISTR. Not on the Thames though like the OP wants.

 

I have a feeling engineers wharf is narrow boats only? I think the op said had a wide beam.

 

MtB

Sorry I keep posting in other posters boxes. Don't know how to change.

[Alan de Enfield]

Sorry I keep posting in other posters boxes. Don't know how to change.

 

I think you are clicking the 'quote' button in the bottom right hand side of the previous poster.

 

At the bottom of the page you will find a box "Reply to this topic" type in there and you will have your own post.

[MtB]

I have a feeling engineers wharf is narrow boats only? I think the op said had a wide beam.

 

I thought it was the opposite there. Widebeams welcome!

 

MtB

Sorry I keep posting in other posters boxes. Don't know how to change.

 

The cursor should already be underneath the quote box if you clicked on the QUOTE button.

 

But sometimes it's not and it falls inside the quote box. It this case first click above the quote box to get the cursor outside, then you can move the cursor to underneath the the quote box by clicking again, underneath.

 

 

MtB

[Tigerr]

There was a very nice mooring in Chiswick recently sold on a 12 year lease, with electric and waste plumbing and a little bit of hedge for privacy - a snip at £350k for the lease. i had hoped they would throw the boat in for free but apparently you have to bring your own boat.

[Mrs Trackman]

Thanks for replies on where I am going wrong. Will try.

[andollie]

Wow! What an overwhelming respinse so quickly! Thanks everyone

However, proper residential moorings are hard to find anywhere (river or canal). In theory anywhere residential requires planning permission, but as an unofficial liveaboard you're generally left alone on a garden end mooring on the Thames unless you become a nuisance and your land-based neighbors complain about you.

But Thames moorings are not cheap. I was paying £350/month for my mooring and that was considered cheap, plus about £1000/year for my licence (length x beam).

What is an "unofficial liveaboard"? Basically just mooring up with the land owners permission but without telling EA or anyone and hoping nobody notices or complains?

I'm in no rush at all, this is all just theory at the moment. Basically I'm fed up with renting and want to have my own place, however as a freelancer I know I won't be in Surrey forever and my girlfriend and I eventually would like to move to London. So I'm looking to buy a sailaway and doing it up to a really high spec and when the move to London comes we can just sail on down and move my perfect home wherever I need to be.

I appreciate it's really not that simple, but I have plenty of time to get on waiting lists and plan everything properly.

So let me get tis straight, it is possible, allbeit a challange, I'd pay 50% of a local residential mooring fee to EA? so say £3,500 annually, then which type of license would I need for being on the thames? is that legally all I'd need, then add whatever the land owner wants?

Thanks for all the responses so far! Much appreciated

[MtB]

Wow! What an overwhelming respinse so quickly! Thanks everyone

 

What is an "unofficial liveaboard"? Basically just mooring up with the land owners permission but without telling EA or anyone and hoping nobody notices or complains?

 

 

Yes, exactly that. If challenged you stick to the line it's a hobby boat and you spend a few nights on it, quite frequently but you definitely DO NOT 'live' on it... Finding that land owner you mention will be pretty damned difficult though, I predict.

 

 

 

 

I'm in no rush at all, this is all just theory at the moment. Basically I'm fed up with renting and want to have my own place, however as a freelancer I know I won't be in Surrey forever and my girlfriend and I eventually would like to move to London. So I'm looking to buy a sailaway and doing it up to a really high spec and when the move to London comes we can just sail on down and move my perfect home wherever I need to be.

 

Sadly there are about 50 people a week getting the same idea as you so you have some serious competition. I blame all those articles in The Telegraph and The Guardian

 

 

 

 

I appreciate it's really not that simple, but I have plenty of time to get on waiting lists and plan everything properly.

 

There are no waiting lists. You need to forge local connections to hear about moorings if and when they become available. All very ad hoc.

 

So let me get tis straight, it is possible, allbeit a challange, I'd pay 50% of a local residential mooring fee to EA? so say £3,500 annually, then which type of license would I need for being on the thames? is that legally all I'd need, then add whatever the land owner wants?

 

Thanks for all the responses so far! Much appreciated

 

 

No, totally wrong! The EA do not have residential moorings AFAIK. Or any moorings at all. You rent privately from anyone with river frontage or a marina. The licence is the same whether you live aboard unofficially or not. You can virtually forget doing it legally, you'll need planning permission and if you get that, the value of the mooring jumps to £20k a year. Cheaper to carry on renting your flat...

 

 

MtB

P.S. Forgot to mention. There is, or used to be, a 'houseboat' class of license. This is for boats with no engine (IIRC) used specifically for living aboard and not moving around. These boats have residential moorings and typically command similar prices to small houses in the area.

[WJM]

Living on a big river that floods is a seriously challenging way to live. I know that Blackrose has successfully lived on both the Thames and the Avon but he is a really energetic and clued-up boater. Unless you are very experienced with boats and rivers I would not recommend an ad-hoc end-of-garden mooring. Get yourself into a marina where the pontoons rise and fall with the river levels and where your boat has constant access to things like water, electricity, sewerage - and the riverbank!

 

The London waterways are filling up with people who foolishly fell into a lifestyle that is far harder than anything on land. For the unwary, choosing to live on a boat can be a terrible poverty trap - you get caught in a lifestyle that is physically challenging and you can't find the energy or the means to get out of it.

Edited May 28, 2014 by WJM

[Dekazer]

We found our official, fully residential, widebeam Thames mooring by looking on Apollo Duck. The advert had been online for several weeks (possibly more than a month, my memory fails me) and the advertisers had not received a single enquiry. We pay less than the quoted price for Thames Ditton marina, but we are on a floating pontoon end on into the river, and they are in a posho locked marina.

 

Keep looking around, phone loads of places, drive/walk up and down and ask anyone you can see. Moorings do come along. Things are certainly easier now than a few years back, when we heard tell of moorings changing hands for premiums of 10s of £k...

 

Good luck

 

PS Engineers Wharf certainly used to have widebeam spots, although I guess they'd be more expensive than NB. It'd be worth phoning CRT to enquire.

[OldGoat]

There are some EA moorings on the River but these are not classed as residential and I don't know whether you are allowed to 'stay overnight'. F'rinstance there are some at Shepperton lock. EA (not owning the bankside) can't collect a proportion of the mooring fee (other than a nominal sum for poles /piles placed in the river bed.

 

Some of the marinas may allow folks to be on board for an extended period as long as they are not '365 day residents' , but not cheap.

Apart from Thames Ditton Marina, there are moorings at Harts' boatyard (below TDM) and another (dunno name) just above. A couple of nbs on the island below Thames Ditton Island. Some on Ash Island just above Molesey Lock and at Platt's Eyot at Hampton.

Failing that, there aren't many end of gardens to have moorings - or they are too posh...

 

A lot of potential choice but expensive.

 

The whole are is sensitive because of a number of freeloaders who make themselves objectionable around Teddington Lock, thus spoiling the River for everyone else who wants to live peacefully without fuss.

 

 

[andollie]

I just spoke to a marina and they said they don't have residential moorings, however they don't keep tabbs on how often you stay either. So reading between the lines I'm assuming I can live there, as long as I keep a low profile and have a second address for post etc (Which i do, I've moved about so much and always had my permanent address down as my parents house).

Is this common? Would I be far less pressed to find a leisure mooring with an understanding landlord? Is this frowned upon or fairly common practice?

OldGoat Who would I need to speak to in order to discuss mooring at Shepperton lock?

[RLWP]

I just spoke to a marina and they said they don't have residential moorings, however they don't keep tabbs on how often you stay either. So reading between the lines I'm assuming I can live there, as long as I keep a low profile and have a second address for post etc (Which i do, I've moved about so much and always had my permanent address down as my parents house).

 

Is this common?

 

Oooh, no - no, that never happens, it wouldn't be right, would it (yes it is)

 

Richard

[andollie]

hahaha OK great! To be honest that's all I'd need, I've only just realized the "residential" issue isn't really a lack of space on the canal/river as I had thought but more a council problem!

Why didn't anyone mention this option sooner!?

[oarfish]

Living on a widebeam in Central London would be tricky enough now, in a few years it will be a nightmare. The Thames is beautiful, when it's not trying to ruin your life at least.

Central London is no place to live on a boat, unless you cough up anything up to 10K for a mooring. Which is no fun either. Way too many boats, with a substantial minority of them lived on by free party halfwits who are antisocial towards those not in their group. If you take to cruising your boat rather than marina life - which should be an option as a freelancer it's far nicer to do so on the Thames.

hahaha OK great! To be honest that's all I'd need, I've only just realized the "residential" issue isn't really a lack of space on the canal/river as I had thought but more a council problem!

Why didn't anyone mention this option sooner!?

There are a few Thames marinas that don't nod and wink liveaboards because of complaints from neighbours. But if they don't mention it, you should be ok..

[andollie]

Central London is no place to live on a boat, unless you cough up anything up to 10K for a mooring. Which is no fun either. Way too many boats, with a substantial minority of them lived on by free party halfwits who are antisocial towards those not in their group. If you take to cruising your boat rather than marina life - which should be an option as a freelancer it's far nicer to do so on the Thames.

Which part of the Thames do you recommend?

 

What's wrong with living in central London on a boat? Other than all the other problems that London gives! (I do love London, however I like being able to visit and then go back to somewhere peaceful where you can get about more freely. It's the Mrs who's dead set on moving back.

[oarfish]

Which part of the Thames do you recommend?

 

What's wrong with living in central London on a boat? Other than all the other problems that London gives! (I do love London, however I like being able to visit and then go back to somewhere peaceful where you can get about more freely. It's the Mrs who's dead set on moving back.

 

My favourite bit for cruising would be round Cookham. Pangbourne is also lovely. Also around Oxford, but its busy by river standards.

 

Sounds like a reasonable compromise if you just visit. It's pleasant enough around Brentford / Hanwell and above Tottenham. Got to me quickly though, so heading onto the Thames for summer at least.

Edited May 28, 2014 by oarfish

[Alan de Enfield]

andollie, on 28 May 2014 - 5:31 PM, said:

What's wrong with living in central London on a boat?

 

Have a search for "London Boaters" I believe they have a facebookpage (or something - I dont do facebook) Alledgedly there are only 8 water points (taps) for 3000 boaters and you can be queuing for days to be able to fill your water tank.

 

London is not geared up to handle, service or moor 3000+ boats and more arriving daily.

 

Edit - Link added

 

http://www.londonboaters.org/

Edited May 28, 2014 by Alan de Enfield