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HRW2 starter motor failure


MtB

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Ok, tried to start the HRW2 tonight but failed. Compression is so good I don't have the strength to hand start it, and the starter motor won't spin.

 

The solenoid makes the pinion jump forward to engage the ring gear but the motor does not spin. I'm wondering if this is possibly a 24v starter motor. Is that a possibility?

 

Or can anyone suggest a fix other than thumping it (which doesn't work)?

 

Photo of it here:

 

photo3_zpsa1ee0155.jpg

 

All advice most welcome, otherwise I'll take it to the starter motor fixer in Uxbridge tomorrow!

 

MtB

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Is it refusing to work because it hasn't been painted yellow?

 

If you are trying to hand start it, and have got the decompressor levers engaged as you try to get it spinning, I can't see why good compression should make things difficult, as surely the compression only comes into play as you try and throw the levers?

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Ok, tried to start the HRW2 tonight but failed. Compression is so good I don't have the strength to hand start it, and the starter motor won't spin.

 

The solenoid makes the pinion jump forward to engage the ring gear but the motor does not spin. I'm wondering if this is possibly a 24v starter motor. Is that a possibility?

 

Or can anyone suggest a fix other than thumping it (which doesn't work)?

 

Photo of it here:

 

photo3_zpsa1ee0155.jpg

 

All advice most welcome, otherwise I'll take it to the starter motor fixer in Uxbridge tomorrow!

 

MtB

First I'd slip that inspection band of the back end of it and inspect the brush gear. Brushes could be clogged up and stuck in their holders, or the brush snails springs rusted through and broken with age and dampness.

First I'd slip that inspection band of the back end of it and inspect the brush gear. Brushes could be clogged up and stuck in their holders, or the brush snails springs rusted through and broken with age and dampness.

The voltage is usually scribed on them somewhere.

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Is it refusing to work because it hasn't been painted yellow?

 

If you are trying to hand start it, and have got the decompressor levers engaged as you try to get it spinning, I can't see why good compression should make things difficult, as surely the compression only comes into play as you try and throw the levers?

 

 

No matter haw hard and fast I spin it, when I flick one decompressor to high, the engine bounces backwards against the compression and reverses instead of going over TDC, and starting.

 

I'll try painting it yellow....

 

MtB

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No matter haw hard and fast I spin it, when I flick one decompressor to high, the engine bounces backwards against the compression and reverses instead of going over TDC, and starting.

 

Ah, OK, understood!

 

Make sure you don't have your thumbs under the handle when trying.

 

After not having much success at ever hand starting Sickle's HA3, I was told it had a recent history of breaking the wrists of more than one person.

 

I've stopped trying now!

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First I'd slip that inspection band of the back end of it and inspect the brush gear. Brushes could be clogged up and stuck in their holders, or the brush snails springs rusted through and broken with age and dampness.

 

 

I've done that and the brushes look immaculate and brand new!

 

I've jiggled all four of them about to no avail. The commutator is shiny copper and looks brand new too.

 

I have it here on my desk now and there is nothing marked on it to indicate the voltage as far as I can see...

 

 

MtB

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I've done that and the brushes look immaculate and brand new!

 

I've jiggled all four of them about to no avail. The commutator is shiny copper and looks brand new too.

 

I have it here on my desk now and there is nothing marked on it to indicate the voltage as far as I can see...

 

 

MtB

 

I can see lots of info stamped into the body, that will usually include the voltage. Probably just after where it says 'CA45'.

 

Edit - 24V would have been a common option.

 

Tim

Edited by Timleech
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I can see lots of info stamped into the body, that will usually include the voltage. Probably just after where it says 'CA45'.

 

Edit - 24V would have been a common option.

 

Tim

 

 

Thanks Tim...

 

It says "CA45G12 53"

 

Does the G12 bit indicate 12v?

 

Plus a 'design number' 1320G531 and a serial number

 

MtB

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Thanks Tim...

 

It says "CA45G12 53"

 

Does the G12 bit indicate 12v?

 

Plus a 'design number' 1320G531 and a serial number

 

MtB

 

Yes, 12Volt. Probably made in 1953, not sure.

 

Sounds as though it'll need looking at professionally, if you were using a good battery. They're not easy starters to 'play with' for the uninitiated.

May be something simple that's stuck through lack of use. There may be a cap over the end bearing which you could take off to see whether the armature is free to turn. SirNibble would be able to give better advice.

They don't take kindly to being run from a 'low' battery, BTW.

 

Just a thought - is it an isolated return starter? The return connection would be via a stud on the back end, with insulation under the fixed nut.

 

Tim

 

 

Tim

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Yes, 12Volt. Probably made in 1953, not sure.

 

Sounds as though it'll need looking at professionally, if you were using a good battery. They're not easy starters to 'play with' for the uninitiated.

May be something simple that's stuck through lack of use. There may be a cap over the end bearing which you could take off to see whether the armature is free to turn. SirNibble would be able to give better advice.

They don't take kindly to being run from a 'low' battery, BTW.

 

Just a thought - is it an isolated return starter? The return connection would be via a stud on the back end, with insulation under the fixed nut.

 

Tim

 

 

Tim

 

 

Ok thanks. Pretty much what I thought.

 

Battery was partly charged but not great. No-load voltage was 12.6, falling to 12.1v on connection of power to the third terminal. The pinion jumps forward nicely but the armature does not rotate under its own power. I know it is not jammed as it rotates freely by hand.

 

I know how complex these are inside and I would only attempt the most basic investigation. This motor is so little used despite its age I think it must be a dirty contact inside. I just don't know where (or whether) to look for it.

 

Yes it's an insulated return starter. I connected the stud on the back to the battery negative. Is there something else needs doing as well as this with insulated return motors?!

 

I'll prolly take it to the starter motor specialist in the morning.

 

MtB

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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On my old Lucas powered cars, 12 53 would indicate being made in month 12 of 1953.

 

It does look a hefty unit to be only 12v, it draw some amps !

 

Thinking about it again, the 53 is unlikely to be the date in this case, too early. They probably weren't even making CA45 starters then!

 

They were (still are, under a new metric designation) available in 12 and 24 Volt.

 

Tim

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Alan I have jump started more vehicles then you've had hot dinners ok.

 

Initially it seems a stupid idea but on refection the current drawn by a motor is limited by back EMF rather than windings resistance IIRC.

 

This effect will limit the extra current drawn by a motor fed with too much voltage in a similar but opposite way that a motor connected to a very flat battery can draw far too much current and burn itself out.

 

I think.

 

But I'm not inclined to try it!

 

MtB

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Alan I have jump started more vehicles then you've had hot dinners ok.

And I don't think Tim bullshits - if he says the markings identify it as 12 volts, then I'll put money on it being 12 volts,

 

Despite his vast experience, if he is less than certain on a point, he always says so.

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Initially it seems a stupid idea but on refection the current drawn by a motor is limited by back EMF rather than windings resistance IIRC.

 

This effect will limit the extra current drawn by a motor fed with too much voltage in a similar but opposite way that a motor connected to a very flat battery can draw far too much current and burn itself out.

 

I think.

 

But I'm not inclined to try it!

 

MtB

 

If it's not turning at all, then maybe not a good idea, there won't be much back emf.

 

OTOH it sounds more like a stuck solenoid, so the motor won't be getting much current anyway.

Maybe you should try smacking it with a hammer while 'pressing the button' ;)

 

Tim

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And I don't think Tim bullshits - if he says the markings identify it as 12 volts, then I'll put money on it being 12 volts,

 

Despite his vast experience, if he is less than certain on a point, he always says so.

 

 

My thoughts too.

 

In addition, it's very similar in size and weight to the starter on REGINALD and that's 12v. And to a 12v starter motor I saw the other day lying around in another CWFer's boat.

 

And in still more addition, I'd expect a 24v starter connected to a good 12v battery to rotate a bit, just rather lazily. Mine has no torque or turning effect whatsoever. I can spin it back and forth with my fingers with the solenoid electrically energised and the pinion forward in the 'engaged' position.

 

MtB

 

If it's not turning at all, then maybe not a good idea, there won't be much back emf.

 

OTOH it sounds more like a stuck solenoid, so the motor won't be getting much current anyway.

Maybe you should try smacking it with a hammer while 'pressing the button' wink.png

 

Tim

 

 

I've given it a wade variety of heavy clouts and thumps (all whilst pressing the button) and all to no avail. The pinion leaps smartly forwards but no spin so yes I'm as convinced as you it is dirty contacts.

 

The thing is, are the main current contacts accessible for cleaning without dismantling the complex bit?

 

MtB

 

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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My thoughts too.

 

In addition, it's very similar in size and weight to the starter on REGINALD and that's 12v. And to a 12v starter motor I saw the other day lying around in another CWFer's boat.

 

And in still more addition, I'd expect a 24v starter connected to a good 12v battery to rotate a bit, just rather lazily. Mine has no torque or turning effect whatsoever. I can spin it back and forth with my fingers with the solenoid electrically energised and the pinion forward in the 'engaged' position.

 

MtB

 

 

I've given it a wade variety of heavy clouts and thumps (all whilst pressing the button) and all to no avail. The pinion leaps smartly forwards but no spin so yes I'm as convinced as you it is dirty contacts.

 

The thing is, are the main current contacts accessible for cleaning without dismantling the complex bit?

 

MtB

 

 

I don't think so.

I have had these apart, many moons ago, it can be done but not for the faint hearted. I'd take it to the experts, especially if as you say it looks good inside. If it was a rough old thing, there would be less to be lost by having a play.

 

Tim

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Initially it seems a stupid idea but on refection the current drawn by a motor is limited by back EMF rather than windings resistance IIRC.

 

This effect will limit the extra current drawn by a motor fed with too much voltage in a similar but opposite way that a motor connected to a very flat battery can draw far too much current and burn itself out.

 

I think.

 

But I'm not inclined to try it!

 

MtB

 

Back EMF does limit the off load motor speed, but that will be higher with above normal voltage. A heavy load reducing motor speed will cause it to draw more current (less back emf) but not a very flat battery.

 

Don't hit it with anything too hard (hammer) either. It knackers the fragile characteristics of the soft iron laminations.

Edited by by'eck
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My starter motor looks just like yours,its on a Lister HW2,but mine is not wired the same as yours.

The large black cable on yours is red on mine so that's live.the stud above that has a small red cable that goes to the starter button and the earth goes on a stud at the back,so one of us is wired wrong.sad.png

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Something to try as I have had similar scenarios a few times on engines that come in here. We have had the following. Starter motor looks spotless inside with little signs of use. Connect to one of our test run batteries because the starter is believed to be 12v only to find it wont turn or turns very slowly. connect to a pair of our test run batteries in parallel so still 12v and turns over with no problems. we test run with using 102 AH delco freedom truck batteries.

 

But as previously mentioned I would refrain from putting 24v through it unless its clearly marked as such. I have seen a few U6's off of Gardner's that people have assumed are 24v which have given up and stopped working, Identified cause because a look at the stampings/solenoid reveal its 12v.

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My starter motor looks just like yours,its on a Lister HW2,but mine is not wired the same as yours.

The large black cable on yours is red on mine so that's live.the stud above that has a small red cable that goes to the starter button and the earth goes on a stud at the back,so one of us is wired wrong.sad.png

 

Hmmm thanks for that description. This is, actually, exactly how mine is wired up. I used all back cables (but the electricity doesn't seem to mind).

 

I take it you mean 'negative' by 'earth and 'positive' by 'live'? I did wonder if reversed polarity would prevent it running....

 

 

MtB

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