GRP cruiser or narrowboat ?

[notts_alan]

Thanks grannykins , I just downloaded the app , I used to use google maps but will give this a try ..any other usefull apps ?

I use uk Ariel alignment for setting up Ariel , a decent free app

Dish pointer pro for setting up satellite dish , unfortunately not a free app

Boating weather....another free app

[grannykins]

There is also one, I think its Whatstore, that does the same with supermarkets. Can also be very useful.

[Guest]

Thanks for the apps tips peeps.

[Bargebuilder]

On Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 16:52, Boatless in Bristol said:

s my first post and question(s) apart from introducing myself in the relevant thread. I've been reading various threads on here and so thought I'd seek your views and experience on the following matter. I know there have been comments/ threads on the relative merits of GRP or steel - my post is merely to ask what you'd do in my shoes. I'm not expecting you to make my mind up for me - only I can do that but any comments and a viewpoint I hadn't thought of will hopefully help me come to a decision.

My quandary is whether to buy a GRP cruiser or a steel narrowboat.

Some facts for you.

My maximum budget is £15,000.

I don't want to buy a boat longer than 30 feet long due to costs of moorings, licence etc.

I wish to keep it on the Kennet and Avon and have started the process of seeking a mooring.

I want a diesel engine - I don't want the hassle of obtaining petrol. I would also prefer shaft drive to a z drive. Not sure why and if anyone wishes to extol the virtues of a z drive, please feel free. I know that limits my choice re. GRP cruisers but they are out there.

I realise for that amount a narrowboat would be fairly old and very probably would require some amount of work doing to it even if it's only blacking and replacing anodes to begin with. It would also possibly mean buying a narrowboat of 30 feet long or smaller which isn't a problem to me. Of course any GRP cruiser I may consider would also be of an age and could need work - I accept that.

I also know I can buy a GRP cruiser in fairly decent condition (judging by pics. on the internet I grant you) for £7,000 tops which leaves me with plenty to spare budget wise. The size I've been looking at is 22 feet to 25 feet - the marques being Freeman, Dawncraft etc.

Having spoken to someone recently, they told me a GRP cruiser should be lifted out every winter, one reason being to prevent any damage by ice. I've also read they need to "dry out". Is it really necessary/prudent to lift them out every single winter ? To any GRP owners here, do you lift yours out every winter ? I ask because I quite fancied the thought of spending time cruising on those cold, frosty but sunny days we get in winter. This would of course mean needing a boatyard that has facitlies ashore. Are there that many along the K and A  

 

 

Which is best, a grp narrow beam cruiser or a steel narrowboat? Well, I have owned boats for 20 years, both steel and grp. I have built them, cruised extensively in them and lived on them and I will give you some facts based on real, first-hand experience. 

Steel narrow boats do have some advantages over grp, particularly if you intend to live aboard, because they are often better insulated and so easier to keep warm in the winter. However, the insulation is very thin, usually about an inch of polyurethane foam or a similar thickness of polystyrene, and nothing at all below 'floor' level. Grp cruisers often have little or no insulation, but being in general smaller than narrow boats, there is much less to heat, so they warm up quickly and for spring, summer and autumn use are easy and inexpensive to heat.   

The owners of steel narrowboats will often say that grp cruisers are not tough enough on the canals when negotiating locks and tunnels, but I have never suffered more than a scratch in all my years of cruising in grp boats. Remember that grp cruisers are smaller and lighter than narrow boats: They are more responsive to steer, they stop faster and have much greater acceleration than lumbering 15 tonne steel narrowboats. This superior manoeuvrability means that staying out of trouble is easy.

Grp cruisers also often benefit from a 'V' profile hull, which is not only easier (and cheaper) to push through the water, but this also helps with directional stability when steering. It is also possible to moor closer to shallow bank sides than you can with 'slab' sided narrow boats. 

Grp cruisers are cheaper to buy: They waste no internal space on a forward 'well deck', this space being fully occupied by a huge double bed that any narrowboat would be jealous of. Our bed is more than 6 feet wide and infinitely more comfortable than any narrowboat 'double' bed that I have ever come across. In addition, the larger grp cruisers have centre cockpits and aft cabins, so there is no wasted space at the stern as there is with narrowboats. For this reason, in order to have the volume of internal space that you might find in a given size of grp cruiser, you would need to buy a considerably larger narrowboat. Just look inside a 30ft example of both if you doubt what I say.

Remember too, that a shorter boat is cheaper to licence and cheaper to moor and can often fit into that last available gap in a prime canalside location. Also, grp boats do not need to be hauled out and 'blacked' every 2-3 years, giving a huge maintenance saving as well. I should also dispell the myth that grp boats should winter ashore; this is just not true. They are absolutely strong enough to survive severe winters afloat and their hulls certanly don't need to 'dry out'. 

With every year that passes, the steel hulls of narrowboats are thinning due to oxidation (rust), eventually resulting in the need for patching or complete overplating; a very expensive operation. This problem is compounded by the fact that the bottom plates of narrowboats are rarely blacked, the excuse often given for which is that there is insufficient oxygen 2ft down to allow rusting. There is slightly less oxygen at that depth, but there is more than enough to allow oxidation, otherwise fish couldn't survive! 

The other serious problem with steel craft is that of electrolytic and cathodic erosion; the sometimes severe pitting that can dangerously compromise the integrity of metal hulls; steel, iron and even worse aluminium. Grp hulls suffer no such problems, although a small, inexpensive shaft anode will be need to protect their propeller which is likely to be made of bronze.

Osmosis is a minor condition that can occasionally affect grp hulls, but it is just a surface bubbling of the outer gel coat, does not make a boat leak, is not structural and has never caused any vessel to sink... unlike the rusting of steel hulls!

 

Grp cruisers also seem much roomier than steel narrow boats. This is partly because cruisers tend to have much larger windows, giving much better views from the saloon. Also, with centre cockpit cruisers, you aren't walking through one cabin to get to the next, so it doesn't feel like you are living in a corridor.

Centre cockpit cruisers also offer a lot more protection from inclement weather, especially with the windscreen and cockpit tent in place.

 

Having said all that, there are some absolute 'musts' when chosing your new boat:

If you intend to cruise any distance, you really must have a diesel inboard engine: Only diesel fuel is readily available at the canal side and you may have to walk miles to find a roadside petrol station if you have an outboard motor. Also, it would be dangerous to carry large amounts of petrol on board.

Diesel engines are extremely fuel efficient: My 25hp Vetus diesel uses 0.6l per hour at canal cruising speeds in my 30ft cruiser, that's just 3 litres of fuel in a 5 hour cruising day and about a month's cruising from my built-in tank.

As I write in 2017, diesel at the canal side can be obtained for about half the price of petrol from a petrol station. If the diesel you buy is to be used for propulsion then there will be an additional bit of 'road duty' to pay. This Website usefully compares canalside diesel prices:   http://diesel.fibrefactory.co.uk/

You should also insist on a shaft drive rather than a 'z' drive: There is much less to go wrong and repairing/reconditioning a 'z' drive can be hugely expensive. 'Z' drives protrude from the stern of cruisers and are therefore vulnerable to collision. Their aluminium alloy construction can also suffer serious corrosion over time.

Whether you chose steel or grp, you MUST have a weed hatch above the propeller, as you will occasionally pick up rope or plastic that will halt your progress, and without one you are stuck; unless you can swim!

To extend your cruising season you will need a heater and those that burn diesel are cheapest to operate. Also, if you intend to spend more than a few days on board, then you will want hot water from a calorifier and a proper shower or even better a 'wet room'. You will also need a gas cooker and if possible a refrigerator, all of which a well appointed grp cruiser could offer. 

You might have to pay around £20k for a really nice and well equipped 30ft grp narrow beam cruiser, but a steel narrowboat with as much useful internal space may be 40ft long and will cost you a great deal more to buy, maintain, licence, moor and operate.

If you fancy a grp cruiser then go for it: I've done over 400 miles in mine this year alone and at no point have I wished that I was in a steel narowboat.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

8 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

Which is best, a grp narrow beam cruiser or a steel narrowboat? Well, I have owned boats for 20 years, both steel and grp. I have built them, cruised extensively in them and lived on them and I will give you some facts based on real, first-hand experience. 

I would guess that in the three years since the OP posted (2014) he has either found a boat, or given up - or maybe both.

[Neil Smith]

It's amazing how many people never look at dates of the op. But great post anyway.

Neil

 

[Bargebuilder]

Hi to you all,

The original poster of the question declared earlier in the thread that he had, after much research, bought a grp cruiser and I hope that he is still enjoying it. Having read the entire thread myself, I was aware of this and of course the age of the original post, so my post was not for his benefit at all.

My reason for taking the time to add to the thread was to speak on behalf of the many owners and prospective owners of grp cruisers, to counter some of the mis-information and sometimes, dare I say, predudice from those who rather disparagingly refer to grp boats as 'yoghurt pots' and 'tupperware'.

Grp cruisers are a great way to get afloat, just as much fun as a steel vessel but with less maintenance and cost. I hope that my comparison between canal cruisers and narrowboats encourages more people to enjoy this great hobby.

I'm glad that this thread is still very much active and attracting interest.

 

 

 

 

[AllanC]

Thanks for the informative post, its good to hear a positive view on grp boats. What boat do you have at the moment?

[Bargebuilder]

Mine is a 'Classic 30' built in 1984. Not many about, but nice looking and very well designed and built.

We have just pulled over for the day having spent a number of hours on the cut watching the narrowboat skippers getting drenched in the torrential rain, whilst we were cosy and warm in our centre cockpit with the canopy up; yet another advantage of narrow grp cruisers. I even manage to stay dry at the locks by sending the wife outside!

 

[AllanC]

Had a quick google, but can't find a pic. Who was the maker?

[Bargebuilder]

It's not mine, but try googling on:

ship a classic ensign 30

and click on the photo.

 

[Ascott83]

On 28/07/2017 at 21:39, Bargebuilder said:

It's not mine, but try googling on:

ship a classic ensign 30

and click on the photo.

 

 

On 28/07/2017 at 00:27, Bargebuilder said:

 

Which is best, a grp narrow beam cruiser or a steel narrowboat? Well, I have owned boats for 20 years, both steel and grp. I have built them, cruised extensively in them and lived on them and I will give you some facts based on real, first-hand experience. 

Steel narrow boats do have some advantages over grp, particularly if you intend to live aboard, because they are often better insulated and so easier to keep warm in the winter. However, the insulation is very thin, usually about an inch of polyurethane foam or a similar thickness of polystyrene, and nothing at all below 'floor' level. Grp cruisers often have little or no insulation, but being in general smaller than narrow boats, there is much less to heat, so they warm up quickly and for spring, summer and autumn use are easy and inexpensive to heat.   

The owners of steel narrowboats will often say that grp cruisers are not tough enough on the canals when negotiating locks and tunnels, but I have never suffered more than a scratch in all my years of cruising in grp boats. Remember that grp cruisers are smaller and lighter than narrow boats: They are more responsive to steer, they stop faster and have much greater acceleration than lumbering 15 tonne steel narrowboats. This superior manoeuvrability means that staying out of trouble is easy.

Grp cruisers also often benefit from a 'V' profile hull, which is not only easier (and cheaper) to push through the water, but this also helps with directional stability when steering. It is also possible to moor closer to shallow bank sides than you can with 'slab' sided narrow boats. 

Grp cruisers are cheaper to buy: They waste no internal space on a forward 'well deck', this space being fully occupied by a huge double bed that any narrowboat would be jealous of. Our bed is more than 6 feet wide and infinitely more comfortable than any narrowboat 'double' bed that I have ever come across. In addition, the larger grp cruisers have centre cockpits and aft cabins, so there is no wasted space at the stern as there is with narrowboats. For this reason, in order to have the volume of internal space that you might find in a given size of grp cruiser, you would need to buy a considerably larger narrowboat. Just look inside a 30ft example of both if you doubt what I say.

Remember too, that a shorter boat is cheaper to licence and cheaper to moor and can often fit into that last available gap in a prime canalside location. Also, grp boats do not need to be hauled out and 'blacked' every 2-3 years, giving a huge maintenance saving as well. I should also dispell the myth that grp boats should winter ashore; this is just not true. They are absolutely strong enough to survive severe winters afloat and their hulls certanly don't need to 'dry out'. 

With every year that passes, the steel hulls of narrowboats are thinning due to oxidation (rust), eventually resulting in the need for patching or complete overplating; a very expensive operation. This problem is compounded by the fact that the bottom plates of narrowboats are rarely blacked, the excuse often given for which is that there is insufficient oxygen 2ft down to allow rusting. There is slightly less oxygen at that depth, but there is more than enough to allow oxidation, otherwise fish couldn't survive! 

The other serious problem with steel craft is that of electrolytic and cathodic erosion; the sometimes severe pitting that can dangerously compromise the integrity of metal hulls; steel, iron and even worse aluminium. Grp hulls suffer no such problems, although a small, inexpensive shaft anode will be need to protect their propeller which is likely to be made of bronze.

Osmosis is a minor condition that can occasionally affect grp hulls, but it is just a surface bubbling of the outer gel coat, does not make a boat leak, is not structural and has never caused any vessel to sink... unlike the rusting of steel hulls!

 

Grp cruisers also seem much roomier than steel narrow boats. This is partly because cruisers tend to have much larger windows, giving much better views from the saloon. Also, with centre cockpit cruisers, you aren't walking through one cabin to get to the next, so it doesn't feel like you are living in a corridor.

Centre cockpit cruisers also offer a lot more protection from inclement weather, especially with the windscreen and cockpit tent in place.

 

Having said all that, there are some absolute 'musts' when chosing your new boat:

If you intend to cruise any distance, you really must have a diesel inboard engine: Only diesel fuel is readily available at the canal side and you may have to walk miles to find a roadside petrol station if you have an outboard motor. Also, it would be dangerous to carry large amounts of petrol on board.

Diesel engines are extremely fuel efficient: My 25hp Vetus diesel uses 0.6l per hour at canal cruising speeds in my 30ft cruiser, that's just 3 litres of fuel in a 5 hour cruising day and about a month's cruising from my built-in tank.

As I write in 2017, diesel at the canal side can be obtained for about half the price of petrol from a petrol station. If the diesel you buy is to be used for propulsion then there will be an additional bit of 'road duty' to pay. This Website usefully compares canalside diesel prices:   http://diesel.fibrefactory.co.uk/

You should also insist on a shaft drive rather than a 'z' drive: There is much less to go wrong and repairing/reconditioning a 'z' drive can be hugely expensive. 'Z' drives protrude from the stern of cruisers and are therefore vulnerable to collision. Their aluminium alloy construction can also suffer serious corrosion over time.

Whether you chose steel or grp, you MUST have a weed hatch above the propeller, as you will occasionally pick up rope or plastic that will halt your progress, and without one you are stuck; unless you can swim!

To extend your cruising season you will need a heater and those that burn diesel are cheapest to operate. Also, if you intend to spend more than a few days on board, then you will want hot water from a calorifier and a proper shower or even better a 'wet room'. You will also need a gas cooker and if possible a refrigerator, all of which a well appointed grp cruiser could offer. 

You might have to pay around £20k for a really nice and well equipped 30ft grp narrow beam cruiser, but a steel narrowboat with as much useful internal space may be 40ft long and will cost you a great deal more to buy, maintain, licence, moor and operate.

If you fancy a grp cruiser then go for it: I've done over 400 miles in mine this year alone and at no point have I wished that I was in a steel narowboat.

 

Just want to say this was a great read and really appreciate the info. I'm no stranger ger to narrow boats as my grandparents were water gypsies for the last 20 years of their retirement and been on boats from age 9. Now hitting 40 I want my own boat rather than a house and been torn between the NB or the GRP narrow beam I have come across... going to view it next weekend so this has helped me feel more comfortable in thinking this could be the one as its a rare find with in board diesel and 42ft with a stove ... ill keep you updated if your still on here 😉 

[Bargebuilder]

3 minutes ago, Ascott83 said:

 

Just want to say this was a great read and really appreciate the info. I'm no stranger ger to narrow boats as my grandparents were water gypsies for the last 20 years of their retirement and been on boats from age 9. Now hitting 40 I want my own boat rather than a house and been torn between the NB or the GRP narrow beam I have come across... going to view it next weekend so this has helped me feel more comfortable in thinking this could be the one as its a rare find with in board diesel and 42ft with a stove ... ill keep you updated if your still on here 😉 

I'm here if you have any more questions. 

Be pleased to hear more details and maybe a photo if all goes well.

Fingers crossed for you.

[Tony Brooks]

I would also suggest that GRP boats are easier than steel ones for amateurs to do hull/superstructure repairs because no welding and hand tools only can do the job.

[Ray T]

2 hours ago, Ascott83 said:

 

Just want to say this was a great read and really appreciate the info. I'm no stranger to narrow boats as my grandparents were water gypsies for the last 20 years of their retirement and been on boats from age 9. Now hitting 40 I want my own boat rather than a house and been torn between the NB or the GRP narrow beam I have come across... going to view it next weekend so this has helped me feel more comfortable in thinking this could be the one as its a rare find with in board diesel and 42ft with a stove ... ill keep you updated if your still on here 😉 

 

Out of interest, who were your grandparents please?

 

 

Edited September 18, 2022 by Ray T

[Ascott83]

1 hour ago, Ray T said:

 

Out of interest, who were your grandparents please?

 

 

Hi there. Their boat was called Jones (both their first names combined )and they are John and Nesta Stretton from stilton. Sadly my grandad passed 10 years ago but nan is still with us. They had a green and yellow 57ft with a picture of an oakapple and when they stopped continuous cruising they stopped at Coventry in Ansty. 

3 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

I'm here if you have any more questions. 

Be pleased to hear more details and maybe a photo if all goes well.

Fingers crossed for you.

I most certainly will. Thank you. Hopefully she's the boat for me ...

[Bargebuilder]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

I would also suggest that GRP boats are easier than steel ones for amateurs to do hull/superstructure repairs because no welding and hand tools only can do the job.

Absolutely right and another huge advantage of GRP cruisers over most narrowboats is their seaworthiness, particularly for those with a longing for adventure. They tend to have a higher freeboard (the height between the waterline and the side deck) and bows that easily cut through and part any waves. They are also lighter, so instead of 'submarining' straight through waves and filling ones well deck, GRP cruisers tend to ride over waves, making them much safer and more comfortable for short estuary or even coastal passages.

 

We took our 30 footer down the tidal Severn from Sharpness to Portishead in what was forecast to be a force 2, but just before the first bridge the sky darkened, the rain started and a squall passed through, with much higher winds and accompanying waves. I won't say it was comfortable for a while, but at no stage did we feel unsafe as we bounced through the chop, even though we hadn't employed the services of a river pilot. I was however thankful that we were not in a steel narrowboat at the time.

 

Crossing 'The Wash' is next on our list of adventures.

[Ascott83]

1 minute ago, Bargebuilder said:

Absolutely right and another huge advantage of GRP cruisers over most narrowboats is their seaworthiness, particularly for those with a longing for adventure. They tend to have a higher freeboard (the height between the waterline and the side deck) and bows that easily cut through and part any waves. They are also lighter, so instead of 'submarining' straight through waves and filling ones well deck, GRP cruisers tend to ride over waves, making them much safer and more comfortable for short estuary or even coastal passages.

 

We took our 30 footer down the tidal Severn from Sharpness to Portishead in what was forecast to be a force 2, but just before the first bridge the sky darkened, the rain started and a squall passed through, with much higher winds and accompanying waves. I won't say it was comfortable for a while, but at no stage did we feel unsafe as we bounced through the chop, even though we hadn't employed the services of a river pilot. I was however thankful that we were not in a steel narrowboat at the time.

 

Crossing 'The Wash' is next on our list of adventures.

The wash has a great memory for me and the lock keeper dropped his keys in the lock and luckily my grandad had the sea magnet  ut the keys and his magnet got stuck against the lock it self so we were stuck for over an hour ... we made it through before the tide went again 

[Bargebuilder]

4 minutes ago, Ascott83 said:

I most certainly will. Thank you. Hopefully she's the boat for me ...

She looks great and has huge potential.

 

I hope the viewing goes well.

[Bargebuilder]

2 minutes ago, Ascott83 said:

The wash has a great memory for me and the lock keeper dropped his keys in the lock and luckily my grandad had the sea magnet  ut the keys and his magnet got stuck against the lock it self so we were stuck for over an hour ... we made it through before the tide went again 

It sounds like you are hoping to go where most narrow-boaters fear to venture.

 

The keeper at Sharpness lock told us and perhaps it's true, that more people scale Everest in a single year than narrowboats have ever done the trip down the tidal Severn; well, it's a good story!

[Ascott83]

3 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

She looks great and has huge potential.

 

I hope the viewing goes well.

She sure does all the quirks of a narrow inside with stove makes it quite unusual. Not seen one before myself so any guidance on winterizing and dewinterising is something I will likely need advice on. Thanks again x

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, Ascott83 said:

She sure does all the quirks of a narrow inside with stove makes it quite unusual. Not seen one before myself so any guidance on winterizing and dewinterising is something I will likely need advice on. Thanks again x

I think that may have a hydraulic drive. There is nothing inherently wrong with that but of that age the hydraulic pump and motors is unlikely to be the most efficient type and any wear will reduce the efficiency further. This is likely to show itself in higher revs for a given hull speed and a greater fuel consumption. You may find the average boatyard mechanic is not very familiar with them.

 

I think it might be a Morgan Giles boat from the 70s, possibly ex hire, but nothing wrong with that.

 

To advise on winterising we need to know the type of cooling system. It could well be direct raw water cooled and that is not so easy to winterise. Once we get a look at the engine we can say more.

 

 

[Ascott83]

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think that may have a hydraulic drive. There is nothing inherently wrong with that but of that age the hydraulic pump and motors is unlikely to be the most efficient type and any wear will reduce the efficiency further. This is likely to show itself in higher revs for a given hull speed and a greater fuel consumption. You may find the average boatyard mechanic is not very familiar with them.

 

I think it might be a Morgan Giles boat from the 70s, possibly ex hire, but nothing wrong with that.

 

To advise on winterising we need to know the type of cooling system. It could well be direct raw water cooled and that is not so easy to winterise. Once we get a look at the engine we can say more.

 

 

It is a Morgan Giles made in 68 I believe. I've read a bit about water cooled engines and do hope it's not this but once I've made the visit, I can get the Info needed as I won't be jumping straight in for sure. This is all it really gives me in the description. 

[Ascott83]

1 minute ago, Ascott83 said:

It is a Morgan Giles made in 68 I believe. I've read a bit about water cooled engines and do hope it's not this but once I've made the visit, I can get the Info needed as I won't be jumping straight in for sure. This is all it really gives me in the description. 

Just now, Ascott83 said:

 

[Tony Brooks]

It has been re-engined and it looks like a heat exchanger cooling system. That makes things far simpler winterization wise. However, it does have a raw canal water circuit and a wet exhaust by the looks of it. Winterization of the engine is really just ensure the antifreeze in the engine is up to strength and in life. Turn off the sea (raw water) inlet, remove the raw water pump impeller, and drain the heat exchanger CORE (not the antifreezed water around the core). Ensure the batteries are fully charged and change the engine oil and filter plus any fuel filters.

 

I think the hydraulic pump looks like a vane pump to me so not the most efficient but fairly robust. It has a remote hydraulic tank so that is good, originally it was probably on the back of the engine with the pump inside it. It seems to have a hydraulic filter and that will need changing every few years.

 

Be aware that the hull stringers were often formed of paper rope that was glassed over so be wary of trying to screw into them. Much better glassing wood to the hull where you may need fixings. The decks at this time often had balsa wood cores sandwiched between two layers of GRP. If water gets in it rots and the deck becomes much more flexible and springy. This may not be easy to resolve.

 

If a surveyor starts on about osmosis my advice would be not to worry overmuch. Those hulls are extremely heavily laid up so can stand a lot of osmosis in inland use. Try to get  a look at any  and post some photos here.