Electric Propulsion

[Andy Bell]

With electric power becoming more of an issue on many boats, supplying lights, washers, T.V's etc and the fact that red diesel may be used for electricity generation, I was wondering of any one had replaced their engine with a generator.

 

Does anyone out there have any experience of using an electric motor to propel their boat?

 

If so would they be wiling to share their experiences?

 

Any information on generator capacity, propulsion motor sizes good points and bad points would be much appreciated.

 

If this topic has been discussed before my apologies, I have looked but can see no previous posts on the subject.

 

Thank You.

[Theo]

With electric power becoming more of an issue on many boats, supplying lights, washers, T.V's etc and the fact that red diesel may be used for electricity generation, I was wondering of any one had replaced their engine with a generator.

 

Does anyone out there have any experience of using an electric motor to propel their boat?

 

If so would they be wiling to share their experiences?

 

Any information on generator capacity, propulsion motor sizes good points and bad points would be much appreciated.

 

If this topic has been discussed before my apologies, I have looked but can see no previous posts on the subject.

 

Thank You.

 

I do like this idea.

 

You have a big bank of batteries and charge them up with either shore power or a generating set, then you use the electric motor the drive the prop.

 

Advantages: no gear box needed, huge amounts of torque at low revs from the electric motor, only low power diesel needed because you rarely need the full power of the engine and the battery banks will be able to supply the brief periods of full power, the diesel engine can be set to run at its most economical revs and the speed control of the propulsion motor is electronic, you can switch of the diesel altogether for nearly silent, fume free running when you are going through locks, you can slam the propeller into reverse in an instant, you can have the diesel generator exactly where you want it.

 

Is that list long enough for all the advantages? If I had the money I would commission one straight away.

 

Theo

[DHutch]

Ahh, yes, this has come round before.

- Basicaly, you cant do it, they-up-above have already thought of that, and there is rules against the use of red-burning diesal-electric transmition systems.

 

Ill try and dig out some of the past threads.

 

 

Danel

[Keeping Up]

Ahh, yes, this has come round before.

- Basicaly, you cant do it, they-up-above have already thought of that, and there is rules against the use of red-burning diesal-electric transmition systems.

He never mentioned the colour of the diesel, all the quoted advantages apply equally with white diesel.

 

There are a few trip boats that do this. I think I remember the "Stenson Bubble" being powered in this way for example.

 

Allan

[Gary Peacock]

Over the last four years I have wasted a lot of time on electric drives and wonderfully fanciful ideas and found that within reason it is perfectly feasible, but to do to any level of sophistication it becomes so expensive it never happens!

 

I know of one project that is going ahead at the moment based on the best technology available and I will be very interested to see the result. Justifying the expense would be another matter.

 

I have often wondered if a crude system maybe based on electric folk lift technology might be equally effective for a far lower price?

 

How about burning gas oil to drive a steam turbine based drive system would that work?

[David Schweizer]

A few years ago there was a Wooden Butty moored near me on the K&A which had an electric motor fitted, and the batteries were charged by a bank of Solar Panels fixed to the sheeting plank. I has a look at it and was suprised how small the motor was, it was located off centre and drove the shaft by a system of pulleys and belts. It seemed to work reasonably well but could not achieve much more than 2mph and I have no idea how it would have fared in situtions where a lot of drive is needed.

 

The power supply was also a bit hit and miss, With the batteries fully charged, the boat could be moved for about four hours, although mre could be achieved on a good sunny day. Of course once the batteries were flat the boat had to tie up and hope for a good sunny day the next day to re-charge them.

 

As a motiuve power system it had serious drawbacks, but as the owner was a live aboard who only need to moove the boat every few days for water etc, it seemed to be ok, Having said that there was more than one occassion after a long dull period, when the boat had to be towed to the water point.

 

As I am no longer on the K&A I unfortunately do not know what became of the boat.

[chris w]

It seemed to work reasonably well but could not achieve much more than 2mph

I had a cruiser (Viking 28) for many years which had a speedo fitted (through-hull paddle fitting). When I was doing 3 mph many anglers shouted at me to slow down because I was travelling faster than the narrowboats they were used to (I would never travel at this speed if I were creating a wash). They thought I was speeding and in reality I was not.

 

Whenever I came up behind a narrowboat, their speed was never more than 1.5 - 2 mph and I had to overtake because otherwise I was continually moving the gear lever from neutral to forward to keep a distance from them and I lost most of the steering way on the outboard (Honda 15HP). I don't know if any narrowboaters have ever measured their speed but as I say the norm seemed to be no more than 2 mph according to my speedo. Apologies if this has drifted

[dor]

I played around with my GPS on the boat to get a true idea of my speed.

 

It turned out my tachomerter gave a pretty good indication of speed by multiplying the significant figure by 2. I.e. at 1500 rpm I was doing 3 mph, 1000 rpm equated to 2 mph and 2000 rpm was pretty well 4 mph. It was suprisingly linear, considering the shallowness of the canals should have an effect.

 

This of course assumed no flow on the canal.

 

I tend to find my speed fairly typical when I cruise at 3 mph, but I will often find myself going slower than other boats at that speed, so I do find your figure of 1.5 - 2.0 mph suprising.

 

(PS my GPS was a proper GPS, not a sat nav, so gave accurate speed to 0.1mph)

[chris w]

That's interesting. For curiousity's sake, I did once check the speed of my boat against my portable SatNav which admittedly only reads in integer mph (the paddle wheel reads in 1/10th's) but there was good correlation within that constraint. ie: the SatNav didn't, for example, show 5mph when my paddle showed 3.5mph - it would flick between 3 and 4mph.

 

What's most interesting is not that you were doing 3mph but that you felt you were often slower than other boats. I used to find a "fast" narrowboat was quite rare. The Honda outboard wouldn't steer properly much below about 2mph (indicated).

 

Chris

[NB Willawaw]

Electric Motor - yes; diesel generator driving it - no not yet. I'm working on an electric boat

at the moment, but the prime mover is not finalised yet and there is talk of an LPG genset.

Andy, if you need more info about the motor end of it, please PM me.

[Supermalc]

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...05&hl=speed

 

Have a look at that thread.

 

I had an Etrex Legend GPS (sadly lost it when I accidently left it ontop of the wheelhouse) which I used when I first started boating. Why is a 'SAT NAV' not a GPS? As I could check the speed with the kilometer posts, I KNOW it was very accurate.

 

Also my boat is a Mevagissey Tosher sailing boat, but made (not converted) into a cruiser. This is why she goes through the water so well, being properly designed for the purpose. So at tickover she does just over 3mph, and only started to create wash at over 5mph. However with a displacement speed of 6mph (river speed) that's it. On the Witham most boats are faster, and on the Trent I'm left way behind, except with a flow last year I did manage to break the 8mph downstream speed limit by 0.04mph

 

To get back to the topic, I'm actually a little surprised boats haven't been made with electric or hydraulic propulsion for decades, as this does away with having a hole in the hull, and hence a major risk of sinking.

[mykaskin]

I have been investigating the use of Diesel electric propulsion for my narrowboat. I've fancied it for awhile, but the state of the technology and expense has put me off.

 

I have found an interesting website however:

 

http://solarboat.co.uk/

 

Which specialise in electric powered boats. In fact there is a replica Kennet barge on the K&A which is completely solar powered!

 

Looking at costs, you are looking at about £8000 for a 30hp system (which is more than enough for canals - but I want to do tidal rivers as well).

 

That's a lot of diesel, but eventually I will want to replace my SR3 with a new engine, and then it becomes a little more economical to do. However if you can't actually use Red in this way, there would be little point if you are trying to avoid the extra fuel costs.

 

Re: GPS's and narrowboat speeds. We travel at as near to 4mph as the canal will allow. When we catch boats up, they are usually doing over 3mph, but only just. The slowest boat we have been behind was however going less than 2mph, and since our tickover is 2.5mph....

[Alan Saunders]

. . . I have found an interesting website however: http://solarboat.co.uk/ Which specialise in electric powered boats. In fact there is a replica Kennet barge on the K&A which is completely solar powered! . . .

'Unity' now has a large cask on the rear deck (hogshead or butt?) which conceals a big generator.

Alan Saunders

[dor]

Why is a 'SAT NAV' not a GPS?

 

Yes a sat nav incorporates a GPS. My point was that a GPS can often give you speed to 0.1 kph, wheras most sat navs only give speed to 1 mph or 1kph, i.e. integer only.

[bottle]

Why is a 'SAT NAV' not a GPS?

 

Or-------------------

 

GPS tells you where you are.

 

SAT-NAV will tell you how to get there.

 

To explain: SAT-NAV does have a gps unit inside but it also has a 'program' to be able to navigate (NAV) to anywhere it has the maps for.

 

GPS will only tell you where (on a map) you are, it will also give co-ordinates. It does not navigate.

Edited December 19, 2006 by bottle

[carlt]

There's an electric butty (solar powered in the vendor's imagination) on ebay, though not wooden.

 

Solar Butty

 

Move the boat to the canals of the serengeti and it might just work without a little genny assistance. There's another thread about this.

[123]

There's an electric butty (solar powered in the vendor's imagination) on ebay, though not wooden.

 

Solar Butty

 

Move the boat to the canals of the serengeti and it might just work without a little genny assistance. There's another thread about this.

 

Quote from ebay advert "1936 historic rivetted iron working canal barge ( a Middle Northwich Butty - there were only 8 ever built so it mega rare)...

Pity to bugger up yet another (mega rare, even more rare now) historic boat. DO THIS WITH NEW ONES NOT WITH OLD ONES!!! It's a BUTTY.

[carlt]

Quote from ebay advert "1936 historic rivetted iron working canal barge ( a Middle Northwich Butty - there were only 8 ever built so it mega rare)...

Pity to bugger up yet another (mega rare, even more rare now) historic boat. DO THIS WITH NEW ONES NOT WITH OLD ONES!!! It's a BUTTY.

 

Only problem is, butties are worthless (and pointless) without a motor. This is why there are so few butties about. The museums don't want them (and I wouldn't trust any of the canal museums with a swan pedalo never mind my butty) and private owners don't want a dumb barge (unless you're mad, like me). Motorisation of butties has saved many of them from the scrapman and, unless you own one and are restoring it to how you want it, it's none of your business what a private owner does with it. I wouldn't motorise Lucy but I wouldn't condemn anyone for preserving their boat in this way. Besides it's easier to take out an engine conversion than weld two halves back together.

[Theo]

Ahh, yes, this has come round before.

- Basicaly, you cant do it, they-up-above have already thought of that, and there is rules against the use of red-burning diesal-electric transmition systems.

 

Ill try and dig out some of the past threads.

Danel

 

I cannot for the life of me see why therre should be a rule like this. You are still driving a boat through the water. It's as sensible as banning one sort of gerbox over another.

 

Nick

[carlt]

I cannot for the life of me see why therre should be a rule like this. You are still driving a boat through the water. It's as sensible as banning one sort of gerbox over another.

 

Nick

 

Dan wasn't suggesting that it wasn't allowed, but the 25% licence discount is not valid. The use of a diesel genny to drive an electric motor is more damaging to the environment than a diesel engine driving the prop directly. The discount was supposed to promote green methods of propulsion so the fact that people could get it and still burn diesel was a farce.

[Theo]

Dan wasn't suggesting that it wasn't allowed, but the 25% licence discount is not valid. The use of a diesel genny to drive an electric motor is more damaging to the environment than a diesel engine driving the prop directly. The discount was supposed to promote green methods of propulsion so the fact that people could get it and still burn diesel was a farce.

 

Is the damage to the environment because the arrangement is less efficient than the use of a maechanical gearbox?

 

Nick

[carlt]

Is the damage to the environment because the arrangement is less efficient than the use of a maechanical gearbox?

 

Nick

 

You're using second hand power. My modern diesel generator uses more diesel per hour than my vintage boat engine. You are then using that mechanical engine to generate electricity to charge batteries to power an electric engine to drive your prop. There is a power loss at each stage and you need the same power at the end to drive the prop. The more stages , the less efficiency. Coupled with the inefficiency of affordable battery technology, and the need to regularly replace such hard worked batteries (Battery manufacture consumes energy) then the enviromental debt just keeps mounting.

[magnetman]

You're using second hand power. My modern diesel generator uses more diesel per hour than my vintage boat engine. You are then using that mechanical engine to generate electricity to charge batteries to power an electric engine to drive your prop. There is a power loss at each stage and you need the same power at the end to drive the prop. The more stages , the less efficiency. Coupled with the inefficiency of affordable battery technology, and the need to regularly replace such hard worked batteries (Battery manufacture consumes energy) then the enviromental debt just keeps mounting.

 

How do they do it on trains?

[carlt]

How do they do it on trains?

 

It was much easier when they had seperate compartments.

[magnetman]

It was much easier when they had seperate compartments.

 

Soundproofing does wonders, just consider range rovers. No character but they are dead quiet.