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Question for serious rivet counters


onionbargee

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Of those that still exist, what proportion of the steelwork is still original?

I know a couple where a fair bit of original engine room is still there, but nothing of the original cabin unless you count the bulkhead.

 

Tim

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Probably the best preserved example is on "Bellatrix" which is virtually unaltered from original. Whilst many engine rooms remain somewhat original BW had a habit of rebuilding the aft cabin in plywood on the original frames in some cases. Odd really, far better construction than say a H&W cabin but then replaced with a inferior plywood job!

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Certainly no more than 13.

 

edit - make that no more than 12.

 

edit - back up to no more than 13.

 

Well I'd like to know which!

 

I couldn't even make a reasonable stab at it beyond those mentioned, I suspect.

 

So we have Bellatrix, Tadworth, Tycho, & Zodiac, so are looking for up to 9 more?

 

Sculptor, possibly?

 

I'm guessing the bulk of Radiant's back cabin, despite all the modifications?

 

Then I'm into guess mode!

 

Libra/Warbler ?

 

Taygeta?

 

Cyprus ?

 

Stamford?

 

Towcester?

 

Stanton?

 

OK, I'm sure not all of those, but please let me believe at least some are fairly original!

Edited by alan_fincher
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Probably the best preserved example is on "Bellatrix" which is virtually unaltered from original. Whilst many engine rooms remain somewhat original BW had a habit of rebuilding the aft cabin in plywood on the original frames in some cases. Odd really, far better construction than say a H&W cabin but then replaced with a inferior plywood job!

 

Probably usually replaced because (parts of) the steelwork was rotten.

 

Tim

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Probably usually replaced because (parts of) the steelwork was rotten.

 

Tim

AIUI Northwich boats were less popular with boatmen than Woolwich boats for several reasons, one of which was the steel cabin. It was considered cold and prone to condensation compared to the wood H & W alternative.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

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Any chance of some photos?

Google Towcester or 'Jules Fuels' as they have some fab photos on their web page of the boat. I know it hasn't been stated yet on the thread if Towcester is an original, but it will give you an idea of what one would look like if that's why you were asking for photos.

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One clue to the originality of a riveted back cabin on a Yarwoods built GUCCCo boat can be the style of "handrail", that is a feature of this builder.

 

It is a flat bar, maybe a bit over an inch wide, and is separated from the cabin by short cylindrical upstands, with a rivet then passed through the whole lot, including cabin roof, to secure it.

 

On the original design the gap between the bottom of the bar is remarkably small, and a considerable hazard if you were to slip from a gunwale with your fingers actually hooked under it, when I can imagine they could easily get jammed, and hence smashed up.

 

Although it is not always done, "replicas" of this rail usually increase the height of the upstands, thus giving more clearance underneath, and a greater likelihood of fingers and thumbs being able to free themselves from underneath if you have a mishap.

 

Although there is neither a guarantee that an original cabin has not been modified to raise the bar, or, indeed that a modern replica cabin has not been built with the "authentic" lower bar, I would say both are probably quite rare.

 

So I'm guessing small gap means cabin likely to be original, larger gap, more likely that it is not.

 

I haven't studied pictures of candidate boats to see how sound the theory is, though!

"Sickle's" cabin is a modern replica, based on the dimensions taken from "Tycho" that retains an original. Hard to see, but "Sickle" does have the slightly raised rail.....

DSCF4209.jpg

I'm assuming "Scuptor" is an original cabin, (maybe not?), but it does seem to show the lower height of this rail...

 

sculptor-kdodington-dec13-DSC_0003.jpg


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

And another question for the experts.......

 

Originally, I think, many/most/(all??) of the Yarwoods boats had the engine room roof fully rivetted on, and the engines had to be removed by drawing them forward through a removable panel at the front of the engine room.

 

Over time this arrangement often gave way to the roof being instead bolted on, and hence removable, so the engines can be craned out vertically. Presumably this was considered a more practical option?

 

Can anybody please say definitively what the original arrangements were on each "type" of Yarwoods built boat?

Edited by alan_fincher
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One clue to the originality of a riveted back cabin on a Yarwoods built GUCCCo boat can be the style of "handrail", that is a feature of this builder.

 

It is a flat bar, maybe a bit over an inch wide, and is separated from the cabin by short cylindrical upstands, with a rivet then passed through the whole lot, including cabin roof, to secure it.

 

On the original design the gap between the bottom of the bar is remarkably small, and a considerable hazard if you were to slip from a gunwale with your fingers actually hooked under it, when I can imagine they could easily get jammed, and hence smashed up.

 

Although it is not always done, "replicas" of this rail usually increase the height of the upstands, thus giving more clearance underneath, and a greater likelihood of fingers and thumbs being able to free themselves from underneath if you have a mishap.

 

Although there is neither a guarantee that an original cabin has not been modified to raise the bar, or, indeed that a modern replica cabin has not been built with the "authentic" lower bar, I would say both are probably quite rare.

 

So I'm guessing small gap means cabin likely to be original, larger gap, more likely that it is not.

 

I haven't studied pictures of candidate boats to see how sound the theory is, though!

 

"Sickle's" cabin is a modern replica, based on the dimensions taken from "Tycho" that retains an original. Hard to see, but "Sickle" does have the slightly raised rail.....

 

DSCF4209.jpg

 

I'm assuming "Scuptor" is an original cabin, (maybe not?), but it does seem to show the lower height of this rail...

 

sculptor-kdodington-dec13-DSC_0003.jpg

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

I don't know the boat, but my impression is from that picture that the cabin sides are not original, no idea about the rest and of course happy to be corrected by someone who knows for certain.

 

Tim

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One clue to the originality of a riveted back cabin on a Yarwoods built GUCCCo boat can be the style of "handrail", that is a feature of this builder.

 

It is a flat bar, maybe a bit over an inch wide, and is separated from the cabin by short cylindrical upstands, with a rivet then passed through the whole lot, including cabin roof, to secure it.

 

On the original design the gap between the bottom of the bar is remarkably small, and a considerable hazard if you were to slip from a gunwale with your fingers actually hooked under it, when I can imagine they could easily get jammed, and hence smashed up.

 

Although it is not always done, "replicas" of this rail usually increase the height of the upstands, thus giving more clearance underneath, and a greater likelihood of fingers and thumbs being able to free themselves from underneath if you have a mishap.

 

Although there is neither a guarantee that an original cabin has not been modified to raise the bar, or, indeed that a modern replica cabin has not been built with the "authentic" lower bar, I would say both are probably quite rare.

 

So I'm guessing small gap means cabin likely to be original, larger gap, more likely that it is not.

 

I haven't studied pictures of candidate boats to see how sound the theory is, though!

The Lawrence Hogg redrawn Large Northwich drawing which I have a copy of states that the handrails are

 

Handrail on casing top 1 1/2" x 3/8" flat with pipe ferrules 3/4" long spaced 1'-0" apart

 

And another question for the experts.......

 

Originally, I think, many/most/(all??) of the Yarwoods boats had the engine room roof fully rivetted on, and the engines had to be removed by drawing them forward through a removable panel at the front of the engine room.

 

Over time this arrangement often gave way to the roof being instead bolted on, and hence removable, so the engines can be craned out vertically. Presumably this was considered a more practical option?

 

Can anybody please say definitively what the original arrangements were on each "type" of Yarwoods built boat?

 

On the drawing, the side elevation has an area over the engine room annotated

Cabin top plate portable 4'-11"

And the plan view shows

3/8" dia bolts

along the rear edge of this plate (but nothing along the sides or front edge). So I assume that Large Northwich boats at least had bolted engine room roofs from the start.

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I don't now about any others but Tadworths cabin rivets are flush, and heavily riveted, leaving the sides "corrugated", replica ones I've seen all have nice flat side sheets with perfect dome head rivets.

 

Some people doing new narrow boat rivetting are using a hollow 'snap', the bit which goes in the end of the rivetting hammer, this determines the shape of the closed rivet. I think they want them to look more like weld-on washers than the original rivets!

Flush rivets are done with a flat-ended, or very slightly concave, snap.

The length of rivet and depth of countersink have to be right, as well.

The prominence of the rivet heads on the Sculptor's cabin side is one reason I think it's not original.

 

rolleyes.gif

 

Tim

Edited by Timleech
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1936 Northwich cabin rivets. Flush, but visible - and with associated corrugations.

 

115rGeneral219Small_zps5242252a.jpg

 

But the engine 'ole roof has been cut for the Petter to go in. Prior to which the front lower bulkhead was unbolted to remove the RN's. Petter was too big for that hole.

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Well I'd like to know which!

 

I couldn't even make a reasonable stab at it beyond those mentioned, I suspect.

 

So we have Bellatrix, Tadworth, Tycho, & Zodiac, so are looking for up to 9 more?

 

Sculptor, possibly?

 

I'm guessing the bulk of Radiant's back cabin, despite all the modifications?

 

Then I'm into guess mode!

 

Libra/Warbler ?

 

Taygeta?

 

Cyprus ?

 

Stamford?

 

Towcester?

 

Stanton?

 

OK, I'm sure not all of those, but please let me believe at least some are fairly original!

My reckoning is:-

 

Small Northwich.

 

BELLATRIX

ERIDANUS

LACERTA

LIBRA ?

 

Middle Northwich.

 

RADIANT

TYCHO

ZODIAC

SEVERN DOLPHIN (currently named TAYGETA)

 

Large Northwich.

 

PADDINGTON

READING (currently named REDSHANK)

RUFFORD

TADWORTH

TYSELEY ?

 

non G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd..

 

CYPRUS

 

So that is no more than 13 former G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. motors plus 1 E.C.C.Co. Ltd. motor.

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I'm assuming "Scuptor" is an original cabin, (maybe not?), but it does seem to show the lower height of this rail...

SCULPTOR's cabin dates from its 1986 restoration.

 

STAMFORD, STANTON and TOWCESTER all have modern cabins.

Edited by pete harrison
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SCULPTOR's cabin dates from its 1986 restoration.

 

STAMFORD, STANTON and TOWCESTER all have modern cabins.

Fair enough,

 

I said I was into guessing territory.

 

RUFFORD's back cabin we were assured by Simon Wain is a modern one, (the original having been too rotten to restore), so I believe you can delete that from your list.

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My reckoning is:-

TYSELEY ?

 

non G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd..

 

CYPRUS

 

So that is no more than 13 former G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. motors plus 1 E.C.C.Co. Ltd. motor.

 

No, Tyseley has a welded cabin, 'in the manner of', built by Yours Truly.

 

Tim

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Very good then we can delete both RUFFORD and TYSELEY from my list - that makes no more than 11 G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. motors, and I am still suspect of a couple of those.

 

I was wondering about TYSELEY as I am aware that it was subject to major works about 10 years ago captain.gif

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So editing your list then, these are remaining candidates......

 

Small Northwich.

 

BELLATRIX

ERIDANUS

LACERTA

LIBRA ?

 

Middle Northwich.

 

RADIANT

TYCHO

ZODIAC

SEVERN DOLPHIN (currently named TAYGETA)

 

Large Northwich.

 

PADDINGTON

READING (currently named REDSHANK)

TADWORTH

 

non G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd..

 

CYPRUS


OK Next question!

What about Yarwoods buttys that retaln original steel cabins?

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