Is it just me or?

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

 

What about Tory rates?

 

And likewise on rates - I can't see the boat through the 'phone

 

Richard

Well I fibbed a bit, I actually have got a Bartering Rate,that can be offered,and is very flexible. (Truly,I have !) But I can't work out the Tax I have to pay,on a sack of Donuts. So I just put a bite in a Ziploc bag,date it and put it in the freezer.

[Neil2]

Well,I'm self employed, but my rate is my rate, regardless.

It would get all very confusing ,for me anyway ,if I was to start assessing the income or wealth of any potential cliant before divulging my Labour rates to them.

"Postcode premiums" are used extensively among the self employed but it's something I despise. Charging someone more because you think they can afford it is borderline criminal in my view but it is common practice in many trades.

[Ricco1]

"Postcode premiums" are used extensively among the self employed but it's something I despise. Charging someone more because you think they can afford it is borderline criminal in my view but it is common practice in many trades.

 

Things like this are common around the world, and are not limited to tradespeople. In many parts of Indonesia for example, riding a motorbike with no helmet with earn you a £3 'fine'. Or £10-15 if you have white skin, whereby you're considered rich. In poorer parts there don't tend to be police, because the locals don't have the money to pay the required bribes. If the police do turn up, for a festival or something, they turn a blind eye to thousands of bikes ridden helmetless, often with a large family on board. You can choose which way to go round a roundabout, no problem. Put lights on at night? it's up to you.

[leolady too]

If he has 20 hrs per week chargeable hours (allowing for travelling, down time, admin etc) and works 46 weeks a year (allowing for holiday and sick days) he have gross income of £32,200. He'd have some expenses to come out of that (car/van, equipment, materials, insurance, office expenses etc) so maybe he'd end up with £27,000 if he was lucky. That's not nothing but by today's standards it isn't a fortune.

[Jim Riley]

"Postcode premiums" are used extensively among the self employed but it's something I despise. Charging someone more because you think they can afford it is borderline criminal in my view but it is common practice in many trades.

how about charging others less cos they cant afford it, oap's, students, cmers....

[lynalldisocvery]

 

 

A trained mechanic will be able to fix the cars / machinery he's been trained to fix. In my experience present them with a problem a bit out of the ordinary and they'll be stumped.

 

An engineer can design things or come up with answers to problems they haven't seen before. For instance Richard had just installed an engine in a boat which had a different type of engine before. A mechanic could have put back an engine that he took out, connected everything back up and got it running. It needed an engineer to look at the space round the engine, and design and produce the exhaust system, diesel pipes and cooling pipes and wiring.

 

 

 

Sue

 

If you get the right mechanic/fitter he can do all of the above, but theres plenty of them who cant even do what they are meant to do, unfortunately the office staff are in the same league!

Ive been doing this job for over 25 years now and dont have a single degree or piece of paperwork to say I can.

I would hazard a guess that anyone who works in a boat yard must have fitted a few wrong engines in their time.

Plus if you see how many times we have to modify what so called engineers have designed and had built then fitted to trucks, so we cant even get to the bits that need servicing, you know simple bits like batteries boxed solid in, fuel filters you cant get to, modified chassis cross members that are cracking after 3 months use, the list goes on and on.

Edited April 8, 2014 by lynalldisocvery

[raymondh]

Bit like the "engineers" who designed the "oil in frame " for the early 70's bsa/truimph and once put into production discovered they could not get the engine in without removing the rocker covers ditto changing overnight from BSW/BSF/BSC to UNF/UNC so the Yanks would not need new spanners (but they already had them)

Its not a degree that makes an "engineer" but the work they do when they get into real life at the coal face

Best "engineers" in the world fix submarines - bit of a job to nip for spares or call out and "expert" when your broken down on the sea bed

Ray

[Bee]

These figures are the reason why I do my own stuff, Just finished a stack of work on the brakes of my old car for its MOT re test, I have a water leak on the gas boiler, I`ll fix that next week, fitted a new heat exchanger in it recently, installed all the gas on my boat and some in the house and as for electrics, well guess who does that. Now I expect that little lot is a) inadvisable and against a law or three but in all my working life I have never earned more than £10 an hour so although people may justify these mad hourly rates I cannot afford to pay them. I am not complaining, just pointing out the fact that professional trade rates are unaffordable for many people.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Bee

[nb Innisfree]

After overheads all the downtime throughout the year due to slack periods also has to be factored in, the only place that can be funded from is the customers, averaged out to give an hourly rate or a fixed price.

 

A different problem: A builder friend of ours if he is too busy sometimes puts in high quotes for jobs just to discourage them from accepting but quite often they accept! What's he to do?

Edited April 8, 2014 by nb Innisfree

[raymondh]

These figures are the reason why I do my own stuff, Just finished a stack of work on the brakes of my old car for its MOT re test, I have a water leak on the gas boiler, I`ll fix that next week, fitted a new heat exchanger in it recently, installed all the gas on my boat and some in the house and as for electrics, well guess who does that. Now I expect that little lot is a) inadvisable and against a law or three but in all my working life I have never earned more than £10 an hour so although people may justify these mad hourly rates I cannot afford to pay them. I am not complaining, just pointing out the fact that professional trade rates are unaffordable for many people.

Agree 100% I am approaching three score years and ten and NEVER paid anybody to carry out work for me on house, cars, bikes, motor cycles, motorhomes boats etc

We live in our boat purchased as a sailaway and fitted out by myself - yes we purchase "things" but always fix as required

I can not afford to pay £50 an hour! but then have the benefit of an old fashioned apprenticeship 15 to 21 with day release and 50 years in the engineering/maintenance industry - good to have been born in the good old days

Ray

[lynalldisocvery]

I think you will find most car main dealers are around 100 pounds per hour, I know the truck place I work at is up to seventy per hour customer dependant, ie more trucks/work = cheaper rate.

[Ricco1]

I can understand businesses that have to pay high rents, business rates, buy and rent expensive machines, heat the premises, buy and maintain vehicles, insurance etc., charging high hourly rates.

 

But a tradesperson living on a boat, other than the tools he needs, has no overheads at all. Everything he spends on the boat would have to be spent whether he ran a business from there or not. That's why I think £35 an hour is overly expensive, bordering on extortionate.

Maybe we need to encourage more skilled Poles etc. onto boats, bring in some common sense.

[MtB]

If he has 20 hrs per week chargeable hours (allowing for travelling, down time, admin etc) and works 46 weeks a year (allowing for holiday and sick days) he have gross income of £32,200. He'd have some expenses to come out of that (car/van, equipment, materials, insurance, office expenses etc) so maybe he'd end up with £27,000 if he was lucky. That's not nothing but by today's standards it isn't a fortune.

 

My overheads alone as a self-employed boiler bod usually come out at over £30k per annum, once everything has been included.

 

MtB

[Ricco1]

 

My overheads alone as a self-employed boiler bod usually come out at over £30k per annum, once everything has been included.

 

MtB

 

Over £30K per year for vehicle costs, replacement of tools, insurances, accountant, phone, advertising maybe, a bit for stationary and sundries, required professional training maybe?? I'm staggered.

[Southern Star]

 

 

But a tradesperson living on a boat, other than the tools he needs, has no overheads at all. Everything he spends on the boat would have to be spent whether he ran a business from there or not. That's why I think £35 an hour is overly expensive, bordering on extortionate.

 

Well, we live in a free market economy and you are completely at liberty to carry out the same work at £30 an hour... unless of course you wouldn't know how to?

[GUMPY]

Reading this I think I am undercharging, my rate varies considerably, depening on who its for and how long the contract/job is. I am at present working for 75% of my normal fee but then I have had 6 months solid 5 days a week from that client. It was supposed to end tomorrow but has already been extended to Easter.

[Southern Star]

I think you will find most car main dealers are around 100 pounds per hour, I know the truck place I work at is up to seventy per hour customer dependant, ie more trucks/work = cheaper rate.

I have my truck serviced by a Renault main dealer and I get a discounted rate of £65 per hour + VAT, the standard rate is £89.50 per hour + VAT.

 

I understand that Audi, BMW etc main dealers charge around £130+VAT which is £156 per hour if you are a private user and can't reclaim the VAT.

[Athy]

 

A different problem: A builder friend of ours if he is too busy sometimes puts in high quotes for jobs just to discourage them from accepting but quite often they accept! What's he to do?

Sub-contract, of course!

[bassplayer]

Take it or leave it...there's nothing better than knowing someone you can trust though....

[mark99]

A different problem: A builder friend of ours if he is too busy sometimes puts in high quotes for jobs just to discourage them from accepting but quite often they accept! What's he to do?

 

 

Well we do that too - we never turn a job down but put a very large premium if we don't really want it - so if we win it we are motivated to get it done quick and easy. Also if I get a rude customer I put on large additional price.

 

Our O/h are £30K per month.

 

Edited - we don't deal with individuals we are talking company - to company.

Edited April 8, 2014 by mark99

[Geoff Taylor]

Hi, The rates charged by mechanics,engineers,technicians or whatever title they wish to call themselves usually relate to the cost involved with the equipment and overheads required for them to carry out their particular skill.

 

Once they have set their hourly rate they must be able to justify it by the professional way it is performed. Good tradesmen are always busy and usually charge a fair (not cheap) rate for their work. Hourly charges can be looked at in different ways, for example, a top mechanic charges £30 an hour, a lesser qualified mechanic £15, the following scenario was witnessed by me, top mechanic took 1hr (£30.00) to replace starter motor on Mercedes Truck, on that same truck the starter motor failed prematurely one week later, lesser qualified mechanic took 3hrs to replace it (£45.00). Technically speaking, it should have been a quicker job as everything would have undone easily as it had been previously disturbed.

 

Another factor that makes a massive difference as far as experience goes is the ability to correctly diagnose and repair a fault quickly and accurately. Someone who specialises in particular types of equipment continually see patterns of common faults occurring and are able to nail it sooner than others (that is one of the beauties of this forum!).

 

An experienced confident mechanic/engineer is one who has the balls to admit instead of bluffing that he/she has never seen or heard of the problem that he/she has been presented with and then by whatever means researches the problem and succeeds with a solution, charges appropriately and in return results in the prospect of repeat business and a happy customer.

[Peter X]

How many computer programmers does it take to change a light bulb?

 

 

None it's a hardware problem.

 

I'm a computer programmer and I always change my own light bulbs. No knowledge of boat engine maintenance though.

 

When negotiating my rate for a new contract I take into account various factors such as the travel required, whether the work will be interesting, whether it's a short job or might turn into a long-term earner, but not the company's wealth so long as they are solvent and will pay up. However I expect more money when working for a bank in the City because they expect more in return. Projects get done to fixed deadlines imposed by management, often set by the Bank of England or other regulators, and the working environment can get quite stressful at times with a culture of bullying. I'm generalising here, but IT managers in ordinary businesses are mostly pussycats by comparison.

[Alan de Enfield]

It appears to me that "profit" is a dirty word for some people.

 

If a tradesman can offer the same service and same outcome as another tradesman why should he charge less for the service ?

 

Taking car repairs as an example you have a fault on your window wipers and keep blowing the fuse - you would generally have to deliver your car to a main dealer (unless it was broken down - in which case they charge a fortune for collection). They repair it and charge you their going rate (£60 / hour ?). Its their choice to operate out of 'flash city centre' premises and to have the costs associated with thise premises. Lets say - for sake of argument they make £20 per hour profit

 

Back Street garage - has lower overheads but achieves the exact same repair, in exactly the same time frame but charges you just £50 / hour as an encouragement to use their services - he maybe makes the same £20 per hour profit.

 

"White Van Man", has the necessary skills to do the repair, has 'minimum overheads', and actually comes and does the repair at your house. He successfully makes the repair and charges £50 per hour - making a profit of maybe £35 per hour.

You also need to consider the times when he is sat at home waiting for a call (non-paying hours), on holiday with the family (non-paying hours), off work for 6 weeks with a broken arm (non-paying hours) etc.

 

The outcome for you is the same "car repaired", but you have had the convenience of having it done at home, it has cost you less than a 'main dealer' and the same as a "Back Street" garage.

Why should you pay any less for the same service ?

 

There are obviously times that a main dealer should be used - warranty work etc, or 'major works'.

 

I like as bargain as much as the next person buy I do not understand this expectation of paying 'below market rate' for something, because it is done by a 'one man band' instead of a 'multinational'

[RLWP]

Some random thoughts on boat electrics vs house electrics

 

In a house, all the wires at installed to a standard. It's all 240V using mostly 2.5mm solid core T&E going from a consumer unit to three pin sockets through channelling in the walls, the terminations made by simple screwed connectors

 

In a boat, none of the wires are installed to a standard. It can be 12V DC, 24VDC or 240V AC, using single or twin core wire to no documented standard, going from an engine, inverter, solar panel, consumer unit, etc. to lights, sockets, appliances, galvanic isolators, the latest boat electrical fad through trunking, behind panels, in the roof, floor, etc, the terminations made by screwed connectors, crimps, clip on connectors, spade terminals, chocolate blocks, solder, twisted wires - and not all wires are continuous and not all are connected

 

I dislike working on 12V boat electrics, I avoid working on 240V boat electrics and associated kit. Both take an enormous amount of time to decipher before you can start diagnosis and repair

 

Richard

Edited April 9, 2014 by RLWP

[MtB]

Hi, The rates charged by mechanics,engineers,technicians or whatever title they wish to call themselves usually relate to the cost involved with the equipment and overheads required for them to carry out their particular skill.

 

Once they have set their hourly rate they must be able to justify it by the professional way it is performed. Good tradesmen are always busy and usually charge a fair (not cheap) rate for their work. Hourly charges can be looked at in different ways, for example, a top mechanic charges £30 an hour, a lesser qualified mechanic £15, the following scenario was witnessed by me, top mechanic took 1hr (£30.00) to replace starter motor on Mercedes Truck, on that same truck the starter motor failed prematurely one week later, lesser qualified mechanic took 3hrs to replace it (£45.00). Technically speaking, it should have been a quicker job as everything would have undone easily as it had been previously disturbed.

 

Another factor that makes a massive difference as far as experience goes is the ability to correctly diagnose and repair a fault quickly and accurately. Someone who specialises in particular types of equipment continually see patterns of common faults occurring and are able to nail it sooner than others (that is one of the beauties of this forum!).

 

An experienced confident mechanic/engineer is one who has the balls to admit instead of bluffing that he/she has never seen or heard of the problem that he/she has been presented with and then by whatever means researches the problem and succeeds with a solution, charges appropriately and in return results in the prospect of repeat business and a happy customer.

 

 

This is all bang on the money. I charge a high hourly rate because I offer a 'no-fix no-fee' policy. I specialise in a specific set of boilers that customers are regularly being told by run-of-the-mill gas bods can't be fixed. I enjoy proving them wrong and as I consequently fix a lot of these my diagnosis is fast and accurate. I carry ALL spares in the van so a 'one visit fix' is guaranteed too.

 

In addition I guarantee my repairs. Interestingly it's the occasional guarantee call-out where I learn stuff and improve my expertise. I went back to one on in London Yesterday. It turned out not to be a failure of my repair on the boiler last week but something unrelated which I had never seen before on this particular appliance.

 

Once I'd figured it out I felt had I know about this fault on my last visit, I I could have noticed it developing on this particular boiler and fixed it at the same time as the previous fault so I didn't charge for the visit. I treated it as the self-training exercise it actually was! No money earned yesterday and £50 gone on diesel but good value for me as well as for the customer. One more strand to my expertise in that particular boiler that run-of-the-mill 'we mend anything' technicians simply won't know about.

 

MtB

I dislike working on 12V boat electrics, I avoid working on 240V boat electrics and associated kit. Both take an enormous amount of time to decipher before you can start diagnosis and repair

 

Richard

 

 

I find the same with central heating systems wired up using the 'bird's nest' technique. I think you've noticed this method used in REGINALD.

 

Snip it all out and start again is usually best. At least re-wiring neatly takes a broadly predictable length of time. Reverse-engineering a bird's nest can be truly indeterminate in my experience.

 

MtB