Total freedom without reliance on others...possible?

[JDR]

There is a big difference between wanting to be self sufficient in terms of food/energy and isolating yourself from the society you live in.True isolation to me conjurs up an image of somebody on a desert island having meaningful conversations with a football. Self sufficiency means not buying food from shops and not paying energy suppliers for fuel. No need for this to be incompatible with living within a nation state and obeying the laws of the land.

[Joshua]

…………………..

 

I wonder if some cavemen (and women) preferred life outside the tribe and were happy to fend of predators alone without the help of a few dozen spearmen.

 

There may well have been, in fact there must have been some cavemen that wanted to do things differently, otherwise we would no doubt all still be living in caves!

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

It takes all sorts,

Lets be fair, if some individual,or even small group of people decide they want to go off,weather on foot or, in there boat, for a period of time, sometimes amounting to YEARS and YEARS at a time then so be it and good on them.

If hurt or I'll ,they know they have to deal with it,

They use to be called 'Settlers' or 'Explorers' and was highly respected.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Paul's Nulife4-2

[RLWP]

Not by the people who's land they settled in

 

Richard

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

Not by the people who's land they settled in

 

Richard

Absolutely right ofcourse,

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

But look at stuff like Transiting the North west Passage that took years in a square rigged ship.

Or Even mapping the Colorado river and rapids in open wooden boats for 17 month. Or finding a viable rout across a Mountain range, Jungle or Desert all done by individuals or small groups that where away for Monthes and monthes if not years at a time. With limited equipment, Dealing with all sorts of things in a hostile new environment..Daily. Not to necessarily conquer, (?).

[mayalld]

Earlier this year I met a German "Wandering Journeyman". Others may have encountered these people. It's a tradition dating back to the Middle Ages common to France and Germany but it only seems to have survived in Germany.

 

Briefly the practice dates from the days when in certain trades/crafts the transition from "apprentice" to "master" was marked by a period as a "journeyman" when, as the name suggests, the tradesman (and it was always a man) would travel the country, plying his trade where he could.

 

An interesting example of an entirely spurious backformation of a term.

 

Journeyman as a term derives from the french Journée meaning a day. A Journeyman is somebody who has completed his appreniceship, and is no longer bound to a master, and can offer their services for a daily wage (hence Journée). He cannot take on apprentices of his own until accepted as a master.

 

Hence, the "Journeyman" part of the title is nothing to do with the making of a journey (the wandering bit is!)

[mayalld]

A friend of mine has disengaged from society, owns nothing, studies common law, returns all mail to sender, a complete odd ball but i enjoy listening to his theories, he wanted to go on the canals but he missed this opportunity and now his health does not allow this possibility.

 

 

I assume that "his" theories are actually the old chestnut "freeman on the land" nonsense?

[nb Innisfree]

 

There may well have been, in fact there must have been some cavemen that wanted to do things differently, otherwise we would no doubt all still be living in caves!

True, but to do things differently the individual meanwhile had to survive predator attacks while experimenting. The main reason we managed to thrive as a species was defeating our predators by ganging up on them in a planned and organised manner. That organisation was made possible by using our frontal lobes to study predator behaviour and act accordingly. It was never possible to go it alone and still isn't.

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

How many years was that Japanese soldier quite successfuly 'going it alone' for in the years after the war. As I remember,he was so successful,that his old commanding officer hadto be pproduced,and tell him to stand down.

 

Can anyone remember that,or did I just make it up.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Paul's Nulife4-2

[furnessvale]

How many years was that Japanese soldier quite successfuly 'going it alone' for in the years after the war. As I remember,he was so successful,that his old commanding officer hadto be pproduced,and tell him to stand down.

 

Can anyone remember that,or did I just make it up.

No, it was true. I believe he died recently and made the news again.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[mayalld]

How many years was that Japanese soldier quite successfuly 'going it alone' for in the years after the war. As I remember,he was so successful,that his old commanding officer hadto be pproduced,and tell him to stand down.

 

Can anyone remember that,or did I just make it up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiroo_Onoda

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

Ooops

Edited April 7, 2014 by Paul's Nulife4-2

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

True, but to do things differently the individual meanwhile had to survive predator attacks while experimenting. The main reason we managed to thrive as a species was defeating our predators by ganging up on them in a planned and organised manner. That organisation was made possible by using our frontal lobes to study predator behaviour and act accordingly. It was never possible to go it alone and still isn't.

 

Thanks for the link Mike,

 

Wel I think some 30 years qualifies as a good attempt at successfuly going it alone !.

[Morat]

Interesting that his motivation was the refusal to abandon the values of the society that had put him there in the first place rather than escapism.

[nb Innisfree]

 

Thanks for the link Mike,

 

Wel I think some 30 years qualifies as a good attempt at successfuly going it alone !.

Can't argue with that one. Be interesting to know how long he could have carried on in the face of an increasing technological world.

[muddywaters]

 

You would probably enjoy reading about the life of Moitessier, his friend Jean-Michel Barrault wrote a very good book about him.

Anyone in their fifties will remember Bernard Moitessier as the man who, within a couple of days of Plymouth and certain victory in the first Golden Globe solo non-stop sailing race around the world, sent a message to say that he was not stopping but continuing on indefinitely. In doing so, he gave up the £5,000 prize money despite being near penniless and handed the victory to Robin Knox-Johnston who was rewarded with a knighthood.

Funny you should mention this, as I've recently read the book about Robin Knox-Johnston circumnavigation.

Thought he came over as a bit of a whiner.

But that's just my opinion

[Neil2]

 

An interesting example of an entirely spurious backformation of a term.

 

Journeyman as a term derives from the french Journée meaning a day. A Journeyman is somebody who has completed his appreniceship, and is no longer bound to a master, and can offer their services for a daily wage (hence Journée). He cannot take on apprentices of his own until accepted as a master.

 

Hence, the "Journeyman" part of the title is nothing to do with the making of a journey (the wandering bit is!)

Just shows I should do proper research... In my defence it was ironically a German tourist who told me all this Anyway the chap in question didn't look to me like he'd made a days wages since he left Germany.

[mark99]

How many years was that Japanese soldier quite successfuly 'going it alone' for in the years after the war. As I remember,he was so successful,that his old commanding officer hadto be pproduced,and tell him to stand down.

 

Can anyone remember that,or did I just make it up.

 

 

He was known as a CW'er or continous war'er

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

 

 

He was known as a CW'er or continous war'er

 

You have to admit though,,that's some dedication, absolute belief !.

[joerobo]

Im as free as i want to be. I work. Bank.buy goods. There are to many good people out there to hide away in isolation.but im free to choose my path.

[John Williamson 1955]

To the OP's question. On the canals, you can't live free from society, as you rely on that society to provide the facilities you use every day Someone has to maintain the canal as well as the clean water supply and sewage disposal. You also need a certain critical number of people and level of technology to keep you supplied with fuel, tools and so on.

 

The closest you could get to full independence would be to live on a smallholding big enough to grow your own fuel and food, with enough surplus left over to barter for stuff you can't make yourself, but then you're back in society. Stone tools, maybe, if you've got flint available, but it'd be hard` work, and as soon as you became too ill to use them, you'd starve.

 

On the other hand, if you want to be fairly independent, then cruising the canals (Or, even better, the ocean in a sailing boat) is one of the best ways to do it, as long as you can afford the costs, and can solve a couple of problems that require you to have a fixed point of contact in a physical sense, as the electronic revolution hasn't caught up with facilities like banks and our NHS yet. There are many people running businesses from boats, but one thing they all have in common is a fixed address that they can use for official purposes.

Edited April 7, 2014 by John Williamson 1955

[bassplayer]

So is it fair to say that we all like interaction with others but not people who want to control you? (control being the thing that takes away our freedom)

[Peter X]

You would have more chance of success if you wanted to be fully self sufficient if you could buy a piece of land somewhere in Europe where the climate is more favourable. In Britain you are limited to when you can plant and harvest and solar is a non starter over winter.Ideally some land with a borehole for water, wood for fuel, good soil for growing veg and space to keep chickens and livestock. More importantly in a hotter climate you could grow vines and become self sufficient for plonk as well.Parts of rural Spain or Portugal would be the first place I would look. In Spain and Portugal Madrona is a common wild plant that is alcoholic before fermentation,bung it straight in a still, job done, drink yourself blind for free while topping up the tan.

 

Such as Croydon? Although I myself gave up alcohol 25 years ago, I make wine each year from my neighbour's vines. My son and his friends tell me that the 2011 and 2012 vintages were drinkable plonk, nothing special, but are very impressed by the 2013. I made about 20 bottles of it and by Christmas over half had been drunk. Having been advised that wine should be left a minimum of 6 months to improve, I've hidden the remaining bottles, to be distributed to my neighbour and a few close friends and relatives this summer.

 

You will probably be aware that wine is commercially grown in various vineyards in the south of England, with production steadily increasing and some of the wine regarded by the experts as pretty good stuff. I think late frost has always been regarded as the main problem for growing wine in England, but I suppose global warming helps reduce that risk.

 

Being totally self-sufficient in food in Britain is indeed just about possible, in mediaeval times when there was very little imported food people did it. The main problem was the "May gap", when there are very few fruit and veg available, and in a bad year people could starve. Those peasants were probably very knowledgeable about storage techniques to make autumn crops last, for example without the benefit of our modern technology they kept apples in shaded well-ventilated sheds and checked them regularly to remove the rotten ones. I was given a large quantity of Bramleys in October and stored some as best I could in my garden shed, and while some have rotted quite a lot are still edible. Nowadays to keep apples reliably until the next year's crop begins, the professionals use large refrigerated stores, with an artificially controlled atmosphere; I think DEFRA recommend a raised CO2 level of 8 to 10%.

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

You don't necessarily need a hotter climate to grow vines,

Perth Scotland, to Dorking Surrey Have Prize winning Vineyards,and anywhere between for For Pares !

Let alone The West Country or Ireland for the Apples, to make Cider,,the TRUE Nectar of the Gods.

Didn't the Vikings successfuly grow stuff in the Orkneys as well ?.