Total freedom without reliance on others...possible?

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

why as a matter of interest are horses non-starters? If boats used to be drawn by horses and we still have towpaths why cannot horses be used?

They proprobably wouldn't know how to license the horse, and if they did it would only be a monthly license if it's measured by Lengh.

Edited April 6, 2014 by Paul's Nulife4-2

[Naughty Cal]

why as a matter of interest are horses non-starters? If boats used to be drawn by horses and we still have towpaths why cannot horses be used?

How do you get your horse to tow the boat around mile upon mile of moored boats?

[JDR]

 

You would probably enjoy reading about the life of Moitessier, his friend Jean-Michel Barrault wrote a very good book about him.

Anyone in their fifties will remember Bernard Moitessier as the man who, within a couple of days of Plymouth and certain victory in the first Golden Globe solo non-stop sailing race around the world, sent a message to say that he was not stopping but continuing on indefinitely. In doing so, he gave up the £5,000 prize money despite being near penniless and handed the victory to Robin Knox-Johnston who was rewarded with a knighthood.

I thought he abandoned the race close to Cape Horn, at which point Knox-Johnston had about a three week lead. It is certainly very possible that he could have won. I read "A World of My Own" which was Knox-Johnston's version. Fascinating story with some tragic twists like Donald Crowhurst hiding in S. America.

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

Aahh,,It's just come to me now,, I think the boat was about 18/ 20ft Caprice, Bloke was called Robert ???. And yes 'SuperShrimpey'

[Peter X]

How do you get your horse to tow the boat around mile upon mile of moored boats?

 

As a Londoner I know very little about horses, but in my post on page 1 I think I made a pretty good case that the horse would be little use on such a section. Our hypothetical boat would have a big solar array and a good bank of batteries, but assuming they were fully charged at the start of a line of boats, how far could some electric motor move the boat before they went flat? If that, or a strong crew skilled at punting wouldn't provide enough energy, you'd need a tow. Having done punting on punts, I estimate it would be possible on a heavy narrow boat but very hard work.

 

A horse won't get you through the various long tunnels either, although legging will solve that problem.

 

Legally I'm not so sure CRT could stop you, because all the old canal Acts would have been written with horse-drawn boats in mind, perhaps explicitly giving rights to take horses along towpaths, so they'd need some later law to specifically overturn that.

As the horse isn't going in the water it doesn't need a boat licence.

 

Availability of grazing might be a problem too, unless your horse could make do with the towpath vegetation. CRT might rather like you if that saves them some maintenance.

You could get water so long as you moved quickly enough between water points; your hard working horse will guzzle quite a lot I suppose.

 

Economically it might be quite viable, a horse-drawn CC'er would become a bit of a folk hero and might hope to sell a book based on it. Merchandise, TV series, real Walter Mitty territory there...

 

In summary, I reckon CC'ing horse-drawn could be just about possible with the right equipment and knowledge, a strong crew and a lot of determination, but definitely wise to stick mostly to quieter and more rural areas. Forget about London!

[Neil2]

 

You would probably enjoy reading about the life of Moitessier, his friend Jean-Michel Barrault wrote a very good book about him.

Anyone in their fifties will remember Bernard Moitessier as the man who, within a couple of days of Plymouth and certain victory in the first Golden Globe solo non-stop sailing race around the world, sent a message to say that he was not stopping but continuing on indefinitely. In doing so, he gave up the £5,000 prize money despite being near penniless and handed the victory to Robin Knox-Johnston who was rewarded with a knighthood.

I think that view conflicts sharply with most accounts of the race.

 

It's worth bearing in mind that Moitessier quit whilst he was still behind Knox-Johnston. Whether the Frenchman would have won is highly debatable and to use expressions like "certain victory" and "handed the victory to..." is misleading in the extreme.

 

Just for the record, it's not mentioned nearly enough that Sir Robin gave away the £5,000 prize money - to the family of Donald Crowhurst, the entrant who committed suicide.

[Joshua]

…………………….

 

As soon as you crave company, and lots of us do, you need to reenter society at some level. As soon as you meet a friend you have society.

 

N

 

One could always try to escape the ‘madness’ of a given society in the company of likeminded people?

[nb Innisfree]

 

One could always try to escape the madness of a given society in the company of likeminded people?

Sounds like a recipe for madness.

[Paul C]

why as a matter of interest are horses non-starters? If boats used to be drawn by horses and we still have towpaths why cannot horses be used?

 

Because you now need CRT permission to make a journey using a horse-drawn boat - hardly "getting away from authority". The reason, possibly, because there's so many moored boats nowadays, compared to 100+ years ago. Things change.

[RLWP]

Because you now need CRT permission to make a journey using a horse-drawn boat - hardly "getting away from authority". The reason, possibly, because there's so many moored boats nowadays, compared to 100+ years ago. Things change.

More importantly - people.

 

When I first started being aware of canals, it was very difficult to get to them. There was a gate at Gas Street, then around a mile before there was another entrance. Canals were closed to the general public, not an open tourist attraction

 

Richard

Edited April 6, 2014 by RLWP

[churchward]

More importantly - people.

 

When I first started being aware of canals, it was very difficult to get to them. There was a gate at Gas Street, then around a mile before there was another entrance. Canals were closed to the general public, not an open tourist attraction

 

Richard

Quite so. When there were horse boats being used on the system it was not a public place and you could have been charged with trespass for being on the towpath. It was no more a public place than a railway line is.

[blackrose]

I don't really understand this idea of self-imposed withdrawal and exile from society.

 

It's certainly not my idea of freedom - each to their own, but to be honest it sounds like the beginning of some sort of mental illness to me.

Edited April 6, 2014 by blackrose

[Neil2]

Earlier this year I met a German "Wandering Journeyman". Others may have encountered these people. It's a tradition dating back to the Middle Ages common to France and Germany but it only seems to have survived in Germany.

 

Briefly the practice dates from the days when in certain trades/crafts the transition from "apprentice" to "master" was marked by a period as a "journeyman" when, as the name suggests, the tradesman (and it was always a man) would travel the country, plying his trade where he could.

 

The rules are quite strict and it involves a three year commitment to travel with nothing more than one set of clothes and a small amount of money to begin with. The journeyman may only travel on foot or by accepting lifts, and must live by exchanging his labour for services, food, accommodation etc. It's the nearest thing to living outside the "system" I can think of.

 

If my experience is anything to go by, it is not an enviable way of life. The journeyman we encountered (a stonemason) turned up soaked to the skin, clearly starving and pipe-cleaner thin. I reckon he had given up on it as he was heading for a nearby commune where I suspect he may well be sitting out his three years.

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

I don't really understand this idea of self-imposed withdrawal and exile from society.

 

It's certainly not my idea of freedom - each to their own, but to be honest it sounds like the beginning of some sort of mental illness to me.

Oh yes, I'm sure 'Some' decisions may be due to Mental Illness Blackrose.

But There are all sorts of other reasons I bet.

[Delta9]

I don't really understand this idea of self-imposed withdrawal and exile from society.

 

It's certainly not my idea of freedom - each to their own, but to be honest it sounds like the beginning of some sort of mental illness to me.

That's a pretty ignorant and offensive thing to say.

[mark99]

I think the OP was posting a sort of philosophical question rather than going barmy.

[bassplayer]

...not too sure myself....

[Alan de Enfield]

I'm guessing the OP won't be using the 'members map'

[Peter X]

Earlier this year I met a German "Wandering Journeyman". Others may have encountered these people. It's a tradition dating back to the Middle Ages common to France and Germany but it only seems to have survived in Germany.

 

Briefly the practice dates from the days when in certain trades/crafts the transition from "apprentice" to "master" was marked by a period as a "journeyman" when, as the name suggests, the tradesman (and it was always a man) would travel the country, plying his trade where he could.

 

The rules are quite strict and it involves a three year commitment to travel with nothing more than one set of clothes and a small amount of money to begin with. The journeyman may only travel on foot or by accepting lifts, and must live by exchanging his labour for services, food, accommodation etc. It's the nearest thing to living outside the "system" I can think of.

 

If my experience is anything to go by, it is not an enviable way of life. The journeyman we encountered (a stonemason) turned up soaked to the skin, clearly starving and pipe-cleaner thin. I reckon he had given up on it as he was heading for a nearby commune where I suspect he may well be sitting out his three years.

 

It's a nice romantic idea, but if as it sounds he was not allowed to accept cash I can see why it might be dying out. Not that many people in a given town are going to need some stonework attended to AND be in a position to meet his needs in return. Food and accommodation should be possible, but suppose he tramps into Blenheim, because it's the first small place in Germany whose name comes to my mind, badly in need of a dentist, and the only dentist in town lives in a modern timber-frame house? Does the dentist then complete a triangle of trade by accepting some goods or services from someone down the road who does live in a stone building?

 

Was the commune in a stone building?

[odet]

Just a comment on the journeymen,

as I think as being a German carpenter I could contribute a few facts.

First of all it might seem romantic it is only to a certain degree. But its far away from being too idealistic.

In the olden times when there weren't many books, let alone internet, was the idea of knowledge transfer. So you would travel to learn technologies that weren't available in your hometown.

And off course you were allowed, and still are to earn money. In fact you are not allowed to work for free. And at least in Germany the more traditional crafts men are (at least mentally) prepared to take on a journeyman.

The traditional proceedings are that a journeyman calls at a craftsman's work shop. Even if the craftsman has no work, he has to offer the journeyman a bed for the night and a meal.

 

As to traveling: The tradition really is to walk, but times have changed the last 500 years. And if you want to work in say the US you are not expected to swim there.

 

So all in all you don't live outside society, you just deal differently with live in society.

 

odet

Edited April 7, 2014 by odet

[Ray T]

I've been having a hypothetical moment. Just wondered what your opinions were on this guys.

 

Living aboard a boat certainly gives you the sense of freedom in that you are one with nature and you can move if you don't like your surroundings. However, is there really a way to be totally free of 'The System' in this country. I'm pretty sure unless you live a tramp like existence the answer is 'no'.

 

Money and Banking - I believe, although I'm not certain, that you have to have a land address to have a bank account. More importantly, unless you store your cash under a mattress, you need a bank account to receive and pay out money. (what about pensions?). Barter might work but you would need some kind of boating community with access to some land to do this. Wouldn't you still need to pay council rates on the land?

 

Postal address - Almost every service we use in the 'real world' requires a postal address. The Post Office 'Poste Restante' service seems a way around this (and it's free apparently). Is it possible to obtain a boat licence and insurance without a postal address?

 

Commit a crime and go to prison. You will be free of "The system" but reliant on another.

 

Possibly won't need money and you know when your next meal is coming.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Ray T

[JDR]

You would have more chance of success if you wanted to be fully self sufficient if you could buy a piece of land somewhere in Europe where the climate is more favourable. In Britain you are limited to when you can plant and harvest and solar is a non starter over winter.Ideally some land with a borehole for water, wood for fuel, good soil for growing veg and space to keep chickens and livestock. More importantly in a hotter climate you could grow vines and become self sufficient for plonk as well.Parts of rural Spain or Portugal would be the first place I would look. In Spain and Portugal Madrona is a common wild plant that is alcoholic before fermentation,bung it straight in a still, job done, drink yourself blind for free while topping up the tan.

Edited April 7, 2014 by JDR

[Joshua]

You would have more chance of success if you wanted to be fully self sufficient if you could buy a piece of land somewhere in Europe where the climate is more favourable. In Britain you are limited to when you can plant and harvest and solar is a non starter over winter.Ideally some land with a borehole for water, wood for fuel, good soil for growing veg and space to keep chickens and livestock. More importantly in a hotter climate you could grow vines and become self sufficient for plonk as well.Parts of rural Spain or Portugal would be the first place I would look. In Spain and Portugal Madrona is a common wild plant that is alcoholic before fermentation,bung it straight in a still, job done, drink yourself blind for free while topping up the tan.

 

My brother does that, lives on top of a mountain in Portugal. 3 donkeys, orange and olive groves, hay paddock and scythe, water well and wind generator, small stone house (self converted agricultural building), no computer, no telephone and he is not mentally ill. Lots of local friends doing the same or similar.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Joshua

[RLWP]

 

My brother does that, lives on top of a mountain in Portugal. 3 donkeys, orange and olive groves, hay paddock and scythe, water well and wind generator, small stone house (self converted agricultural building), no computer, no telephone and he is not mentally ill. Lots of local friends doing the same or similar.

 

That would be in Portugal, a sovereign state with it's own borders and political system that allows your brother to own the land and stops it being taken over by foreign armies, with it's own law and order system that allows your brother to keep owning his land and donkeys against theft, and a host of other benefits he gets

 

Richard

[nb Innisfree]

Great life, not having to bother with troublesome people, especially those insisting on giving you anaesthetics before an operation or dental work, better not to bother with all that modern stuff.

 

I wonder if some cavemen (and women) preferred life outside the tribe and were happy to fend of predators alone without the help of a few dozen spearmen.