Navigating bridges travelling downstream

[blackrose]

There was a thread about this somewhere, but I couldn't find it so perhaps a a mod could merge topics if they can find it.

 

I almost came a cropper last weekend at Welford-on-Avon Bridge (Warks Avon).

 

I've gone under this bridge before but made a mess of the approach this time - probably because there was a bit more current behind me than last time.

 

Here's a picture of the bridge (not mine).

 

 

 

If you google maps "Weford on Avon" you'll see how the river goes into different channels with the navigable bridge channel on the left (travelling downstream).

 

As you approach the bridge you have to turn to port to get into the channel on the left side of the river, then the only navigable arch is on the right next to the island so once you're in the channel you have to keep right. The trouble is that because you've just turned to starboard to line up with the bridgehole, if there's any current it tends to push your stern out to port.

 

I realised I wasn't lined up properly when my bow was about 30ft from the bridge and decided to bottle out! The bow would have gone in ok, but I'd have clouted the bridge somewhere along the port side of my boat and couldn't risk trying to get the bow in and then line up. So I backed out and managed not to get stuck in the shallows on the left side of the channel before getting the stern over to the right and lining up properly for a successful second attempt.

 

I wasn't going very fast, but perhaps my approach wasn't slow enough - difficult when you have the current behind you. The boat tends to slide around bends rather then steer. My boat is 12ft wide and I think that arch is probably 14ft so there's not much room for error.

Edited April 5, 2014 by blackrose

[john6767]

I bet the Avon bridges are a bit of a challenge with a widebeam. I though Bidford was challenging enough with a narrowboat when the river was flowing quite fast at Easter a few years ago.

[Neil2]

I don't know if slowing down more would help in this situation. Assuming you have a right hand prop, when you put her into reverse the normal reaction would be for the stern to turn to port, which sounds like it would make matters worse. I've never handled a flat bottom widebeam, but the usual technique when not lined up correctly is to put the rudder hard over and apply a quick burst of power which should kick the stern back into line. (The mistake a lot of people make in close quarter manoevering is to apply power before turning the rudder, it's definitely "steer before gear".)

 

But with a boat that is inherently difficult to handle like a w/b I don't know if this would help. Maybe other w/b owners have better advice to offer.

 

(BTW I hope I'm not being patronising but the left bank of a river is always on the same side, whichever direction you are travelling.)

[blackrose]

I don't know if slowing down more would help in this situation. Assuming you have a right hand prop, when you put her into reverse the normal reaction would be for the stern to turn to port, which sounds like it would make matters worse. I've never handled a flat bottom widebeam, but the usual technique when not lined up correctly is to put the rudder hard over and apply a quick burst of power which should kick the stern back into line. (The mistake a lot of people make in close quarter manoevering is to apply power before turning the rudder, it's definitely "steer before gear".)

 

But with a boat that is inherently difficult to handle like a w/b I don't know if this would help. Maybe other w/b owners have better advice to offer.

 

(BTW I hope I'm not being patronising but the left bank of a river is always on the same side, whichever direction you are travelling.)

 

I thought I'd made it clear that I was traveling downstream when I talked about the left side of the river?

 

Yes, going into astern does pull my stern to port, but it didn't make matters worse compared to not doing so and possibly hitting the bridge because I went backwards rather than forwards. As long as you have enough power to stop and go back then it won't make matters worse. If the stern goes to port in astern you just correct that when you put it into forward gear.

 

A burst of power may have helped, but it's a bit risky when you only have a foot clearance on each side to begin with and the bridge is approaching so you don't have much time. If you don't get it right that burst of power will make the boat hit the bridge even harder. I made the decision to back out, get the stern into position and give it a second go, which turned out to be the correct decision.

 

By the way, I don't know where you get the idea that widebeams are inherently difficult to handle? Mine handles much better than a lot of narrowboats I've steered. The only thing is that a bigger steel boat will always be heavier so it has a lot more momentum than most narrowboats. Once you get used to that it's no more difficult to handle.

Edited April 5, 2014 by blackrose

[matty40s]

With coming at an angle due to the channel - or through a bridge on a bend, the nose should be aimed at the further away side of the bridge. As the pointy end is almost in, power the back end round to level up through the bridge.

Well, this is how I managed to get the N$$£&&^*am P%&$cess through a bridge in a wind. (name obliterated to protect the skipper)

[blackrose]

With coming at an angle due to the channel - or through a bridge on a bend, the nose should be aimed at the further away side of the bridge. As the pointy end is almost in, power the back end round to level up through the bridge.

Well, this is how I managed to get the N$$£&&^*am P%&$cess through a bridge in a wind. (name obliterated to protect the skipper)

 

Perhaps if you have plenty of clearance as on a narrowboat then this is how you can do it, but not on a 12ft widebeam with the current behind you. I don't think some people appreciate how much momentum there is on a 32 tonne boat. In future I will creep as slowly as possible around the bend coming to a stop if necessary, and then adjust my stern position to line up and go through.

Edited April 5, 2014 by blackrose

[twbm]

At the risk of stating the bleedin' obvious remember you won't be 'stopped', you'll be reversing at the same speed as the current so the prop effect may still be there.

[matty40s]

Perhaps if you have plenty of clearance as on a narrowboat then this is how you can do it, but not on a 12ft widebeam with the current behind you. I don't think some people appreciate how much momentum there is on a 32 tonne boat. In future I will creep as slowly as possible around the bend coming to a stop if necessary, and then adjust my stern position to line up and go through.

 

The boat I was referring to is the 120 passenger trip boat, a tad bigger and heavier than your little widebeam........

[blackrose]

The boat I was referring to is the 120 passenger trip boat, a tad bigger and heavier than your little widebeam........

 

In that case I assume the bridge arch the skipper was taking it under was a tad bigger than the little one at Welford bridge.....

 

There is of course more than one way to skin a cat, but personally I know how my boat handles and I wouldn't use the method you suggest. As I said previously, if you don't get it right you're going to have an almighty impact with the bridge because you've just put on more power, and in the case of the historic bridges on the Avon it might not just be the cost of boat repairs that one ends up paying for!

 

If you have enough engine power then in my opinion it's better to back off and line up properly, but each to their own - you're the skipper of your boat and you know how it handles, so you do it your way.

Edited April 5, 2014 by blackrose

[Joshua]

 

In that case I assume the bridge arch the skipper was taking it under was a tad bigger than the little one at Welford bridge.....

 

There is of course more than one way to skin a cat, but personally I know how my boat handles and I wouldn't use the method you suggest. As I said previously, if you don't get it right you're going to have an almighty impact with the bridge because you've just put on more power, and in the case of the historic bridges on the Avon it might not just be the cost of boat repairs that one ends up paying for!

 

If you have enough engine power then in my opinion it's better to back off and line up properly, but each to their own - you're the skipper of your boat and you know how it handles, so you do it your way.

 

We had a similar experience at Bidford bridge.

That’s a tough bridge (down stream), even when one is through the arch, a good manoeuvre is needed to avoid running up the river bank!

 

I think the solution demands a balance of timing, judgement and a bit of nerve.

There is a ‘point of no return’ when it is no longer possible to come to a controlled stop before hitting the object, once past that point you sometimes need a bit of nerve to ‘go on’ rather than to try and stop (like entering a lock or harbour where one has to pass across counter currents).

Judgement is needed to determine whether to pull out, re-gather and try again or to push on. Judgement also in deciding when reverse thrust will be more effective than forward.

 

Whenever I find myself with a bit of time and enough water where I can freely manoeuvre, I take the opportunity to experiment with the effects of my boats controls.

I have even found the odd lock big enough to do this in while waiting for them to fill.

I have discovered some fascinating and very unexpected results.

I discovered that when steering in reverse, my boat is much more responsive at very low revs than at high, so although it is counter intuitive, I need to resist the temptation to apply too much power when I need to make big adjustments to direction.

I have also discovered the most effective amount of rudder in various circumstances when reversing.

My observations suggest that many people give these issues very little thought, I often see ‘helmsmen’ whilst reversing, moving the tiller from side to side more in hope than knowledge. The most common reaction seems to be to try one direction then the other if the first doesn’t have the desired effect, then back again and so forth, often ending with an unconvincing and unconvinced centre position.

I think all boats behave differently and the only real solution is to take every opportunity to get to know your own boat.

 

P.S. On our journey down the Avon 3 or 4 weeks ago, we passed your boat (you were in the bow dusting I think), apologies for not calling a greeting, we were past you before my brain registered and identified a familiar CWDF name and then I was not quick witted enough to bring our boat to a stop before we were carried away on the flow.

[blackrose]

 

We had a similar experience at Bidford bridge.

That’s a tough bridge (down stream), even when one is through the arch, a good manoeuvre is needed to avoid running up the river bank!

 

I think the solution demands a balance of timing, judgement and a bit of nerve.

There is a ‘point of no return’ when it is no longer possible to come to a controlled stop before hitting the object, once past that point you sometimes need a bit of nerve to ‘go on’ rather than to try and stop (like entering a lock or harbour where one has to pass across counter currents).

Judgement is needed to determine whether to pull out, re-gather and try again or to push on. Judgement also in deciding when reverse thrust will be more effective than forward.

 

Whenever I find myself with a bit of time and enough water where I can freely manoeuvre, I take the opportunity to experiment with the effects of my boats controls.

I have even found the odd lock big enough to do this in while waiting for them to fill.

I have discovered some fascinating and very unexpected results.

I discovered that when steering in reverse, my boat is much more responsive at very low revs than at high, so although it is counter intuitive, I need to resist the temptation to apply too much power when I need to make big adjustments to direction.

I have also discovered the most effective amount of rudder in various circumstances when reversing.

My observations suggest that many people give these issues very little thought, I often see ‘helmsmen’ whilst reversing, moving the tiller from side to side more in hope than knowledge. The most common reaction seems to be to try one direction then the other if the first doesn’t have the desired effect, then back again and so forth, often ending with an unconvincing and unconvinced centre position.

I think all boats behave differently and the only real solution is to take every opportunity to get to know your own boat.

 

P.S. On our journey down the Avon 3 or 4 weeks ago, we passed your boat (you were in the bow dusting I think), apologies for not calling a greeting, we were past you before my brain registered and identified a familiar CWDF name and then I was not quick witted enough to bring our boat to a stop before we were carried away on the flow.

 

I think you're right - there is a point of no return past which you just have to use your judgement and go for it.

 

I think you must have passed me while I was getting rid of the rubber scraper mats with holes in them that lined my well deck. Dusting? More like removing a few kg of crud that collected under them. It seemed like a good idea when I put them down but they just collect dirt.

 

Let me know if you're coming back this way.

[Joshua]

 

……………………...

 

Let me know if you're coming back this way.

 

Alas, probably not, we are going to sea before we go to seed!

We collect our newly purchased, 1931 boat next weekend then, after (hopefully) a short refit and a bit of time learning how to sail again, we will probably head off to Copenhagen.

We are going to try and worm our way into the select group of boats moored at Nyhavn in the centre of Copenhagen and from where, we can explore the coasts of Scandinavia and the Baltic sea for a couple of summers or more.

Nyhavn is reserved for historic wooden tall ships and as our new boat was built in Denmark, we think we might be in with a shout, we will see, much to do before then!

 

There is at least one Scandinavian based CWDF member so maybe we will organise a banter over there?

[luctor et emergo]

 

Alas, probably not, we are going to sea before we go to seed!

We collect our newly purchased, 1931 boat next weekend then, after (hopefully) a short refit and a bit of time learning how to sail again, we will probably head off to Copenhagen.

We are going to try and worm our way into the select group of boats moored at Nyhavn in the centre of Copenhagen and from where, we can explore the coasts of Scandinavia and the Baltic sea for a couple of summers or more.

Nyhavn is reserved for historic wooden tall ships and as our new boat was built in Denmark, we think we might be in with a shout, we will see, much to do before then!

 

There is at least one Scandinavian based CWDF member so maybe we will organise a banter over there?

Pictures? Please? Lol

 

Alas, probably not, we are going to sea before we go to seed!

We collect our newly purchased, 1931 boat next weekend then, after (hopefully) a short refit and a bit of time learning how to sail again, we will probably head off to Copenhagen.

We are going to try and worm our way into the select group of boats moored at Nyhavn in the centre of Copenhagen and from where, we can explore the coasts of Scandinavia and the Baltic sea for a couple of summers or more.

Nyhavn is reserved for historic wooden tall ships and as our new boat was built in Denmark, we think we might be in with a shout, we will see, much to do before then!

 

There is at least one Scandinavian based CWDF member so maybe we will organise a banter over there?

Pictures? Please? Lol

[Joshua]

Pictures? Please? Lol

 

Pictures? Please? Lol

 

Of course!

 

https://www.dropbox.com/sc/n3t2ch8suqx8ndg/abLzYDeqfT

[waterwitch]

Josefine is looking very good.

[luctor et emergo]

 

Of course!

 

https://www.dropbox.com/sc/n3t2ch8suqx8ndg/abLzYDeqfT

No good, I only managed to get as far as the second picture, before needing to lay down...

 

Very pretty lines, and looking superb under sail. Congrats and save passage.

 

 

 

 

Edit double post

Edited April 6, 2014 by luctor et emergo

[David Mack]

There was a thread about this somewhere, but I couldn't find it so perhaps a a mod could merge topics if they can find it.

 

I almost came a cropper last weekend at Welford-on-Avon Bridge (Warks Avon).

 

I've gone under this bridge before but made a mess of the approach this time - probably because there was a bit more current behind me than last time.

 

Here's a picture of the bridge (not mine).

 

 

 

If you google maps "Weford on Avon" you'll see how the river goes into different channels with the navigable bridge channel on the left (travelling downstream).

 

As you approach the bridge you have to turn to port to get into the channel on the left side of the river, then the only navigable arch is on the right next to the island so once you're in the channel you have to keep right. The trouble is that because you've just turned to starboard to line up with the bridgehole, if there's any current it tends to push your stern out to port.

 

I realised I wasn't lined up properly when my bow was about 30ft from the bridge and decided to bottle out! The bow would have gone in ok, but I'd have clouted the bridge somewhere along the port side of my boat and couldn't risk trying to get the bow in and then line up. So I backed out and managed not to get stuck in the shallows on the left side of the channel before getting the stern over to the right and lining up properly for a successful second attempt.

 

I wasn't going very fast, but perhaps my approach wasn't slow enough - difficult when you have the current behind you. The boat tends to slide around bends rather then steer. My boat is 12ft wide and I think that arch is probably 14ft so there's not much room for error.

 

You probably wouldn't want to try Irthlingborough bridges on the Nene then! This is the view that confronts you coming downstream.

 

You can just see the edge of the cabin in the bottom left, which shows the angle you approach the bridge from. So then its a sharp right to get under the bypass bridge, and then you have to shimmy across to the left and line up to get through the navigation arch of the old bridge - its the third arch from the right. And if thats not enough you have to do a hard left immediately through the old bridge if you are not to stem up on the bank opposite!