Response to the Consultation on Waterway Partnership’s Towpath Mooring Plan for the Kennet & Avon Canal west of Devizes

[Pete & Helen]

Just been issued today by Cart

 

http://canalrivertrust.org.uk/about-us/consultations/completed-consultations

 

[KenK]

I can see that making a massive difference!

 

Ken

[Pete & Helen]

The mooring plan can be seen here https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/4082.pdf showing were the 14 "neighbourhoods" are so people know how far to travel so as to not be classed as bridge hoppers

 

And the home page for this and other consultations here http://canalrivertrust.org.uk/about-us/consultations/completed-consultations

[Quinafloat]

I think it will act as a strong deterrent to visiting the area. Two day visitor moorings with overstay fines will be enough for me not to bother as there is very little "wild" mooring available. That is not enough time to shop, look round an area or visit friends at a relaxed pace. I guess it's perfectly OK if you are travelling to a strict schedule or like playing musical chairs.

[Naughty Cal]

I think it will act as a strong deterrent to visiting the area. Two day visitor moorings with overstay fines will be enough for me not to bother as there is very little "wild" mooring available. That is not enough time to shop, look round an area or visit friends at a relaxed pace. I guess it's perfectly OK if you are travelling to a strict schedule or like playing musical chairs.

 

If 48 hour visitor moorings are enough to make you not bother, then I wouldnt bother visiting the North

[mango]

I think it will act as a strong deterrent to visiting the area. Two day visitor moorings with overstay fines will be enough for me not to bother as there is very little "wild" mooring available. That is not enough time to shop, look round an area or visit friends at a relaxed pace. I guess it's perfectly OK if you are travelling to a strict schedule or like playing musical chairs.

Apart from twice when I have had a breakdown and unable to move the boat, I don't think I have stayed on a mooring for more than a day, either on a private or hire boat. Many boaters who use their own boats or hire boats for holidays make the most of their time and move on most days.

 

Not only do I support short mooring periods in popular areas but I see it as courtesy to move off a visitor mooring at honeypot sites as soon as possible, just like most boaters move off a water point when they have filled up.

[sassan]

Overall, relatively positive in my view. Most of the sillier bits suggested in the consultation have been dropped/amended.

 

 

 

Unpaid extended stay charge debts collected via normal process, not obstructing the renewal
of a boat licence (4), (5);

Has the potential to reduce problems, evictions and associated negative press for CRT.

 

 

 

Further investigation of a ‘points’ system (similar to that used in driving licences) (22);

I hope this gets implemented. Should result in clearer and less arbitrary enforcement and acknowledgement that even the best of us screw up sometimes. Potential reduced admin and legal costs related to appeals for CRT.

 

I'm pleased they increased the maximum days per month on a single visitor mooring from 4 to 7 days, a bit more sensible. I'm also glad they dropped the nonsense pay and display scheme.

 

The change from enforcing space between every boat for anglers to issuing information to boaters reminding them to be considerate of anglers is much more sensible.

 

The change of wording regarding the 20km rule makes things slightly more difficult, but could be worse. It is at least very good indeed that something clear has been published. 12miles is achievable for almost all.

 

The suggestion of requiring boats to display a "next move date" has gone away, good.

 

Publicly available cruising records have been confirmed to only refer to general statistics and not the movements of individual boats. Good.

Edited March 13, 2014 by sassan

[sassan]

There is very little "wild" mooring available.

As a local (boater) to the area, I can tell you that there is plenty of "wild" mooring available. There is however, in my opinion, a shortage of non-VM spaces available that are suitable for access by the disabled/elderly (low depth near bank, frequently poor bank state).

 

Do you have mobility issues? (I don't ask this question in any negative way, I just want to understand what makes you say there's a shortage of mooring space).

 

Also, I can only think of a small number of 7 day moorings this would affect (and an equal number of 24 hour moorings which will be extended to 48hour). I would imagine that the effect of this will be to reduce use of those previously 7 day moorings and as a result in future examination they will be removed and reverted to normal 14day (probably good).

[KenK]

I wonder how long it will be before Nick Brown either challanges C&RT right to impose fines (£25 per day overstaying charge / fine) or appeals against the Davies case on the basis that C&RT are now saying what he was doing is in fact acceptable.

Of course this will now apply across the system because you can't have one rule for one set of boaters (CC'rs) and a different rule for other (CC'rs), otherwise that is discrimination.

 

Ken

[Quinafloat]

Apart from twice when I have had a breakdown and unable to move the boat, I don't think I have stayed on a mooring for more than a day, either on a private or hire boat. Many boaters who use their own boats or hire boats for holidays make the most of their time and move on most days.

 

Not only do I support short mooring periods in popular areas but I see it as courtesy to move off a visitor mooring at honeypot sites as soon as possible, just like most boaters move off a water point when they have filled up.

 

As a local (boater) to the area, I can tell you that there is plenty of "wild" mooring available. There is however, in my opinion, a shortage of non-VM spaces available that are suitable for access by the disabled/elderly (low depth near bank, frequently poor bank state).

 

Do you have mobility issues? (I don't ask this question in any negative way, I just want to understand what makes you say there's a shortage of mooring space).

 

Also, I can only think of a small number of 7 day moorings this would affect (and an equal number of 24 hour moorings which will be extended to 48hour). I would imagine that the effect of this will be to reduce use of those previously 7 day moorings and as a result in future examination they will be removed and reverted to normal 14day (probably good).

 

Last time I went down to the whole length of the K&A I found it difficult to find moorings that were useful, that is near where I wanted to be (mostly towns). I also have friends down that part of the world. I have a limited range for walking, 2 miles, so very minor mobility issues generally referred to as old age. In 7 days we can shop, visit the area, see a doctor, and arrange to see friends and generally enjoy the area. Two days is just too short as you never know where you can actually moor and so can't plan these things. The arrangements are good for people who don't want to move much, and for those travelling through, just not for those who want to simply take their own time.to do their travelling.

[Arducius]

I have to agree with sassan, I haven't had any issues finding somewhere to moor when I've been down that end of the K&A (even in hot spots like BoA). You just have to accept that if you want to be right next to the pub* then it's likely that someone else might do too, but a short walk away from the pub will give you access to many quiet, scenic mooring spots.

 

KenK, I think it'd be good if they did apply a similar approach across the whole network. Everyone would know exactly when they had moved to the next neighbourhood and there would be no ambiguity about whether you'd moved far enough to qualify as moving into the next area.

 

*or water point, road, bins, etc

[Jerra]

Of course this will now apply across the system because you can't have one rule for one set of boaters (CC'rs) and a different rule for other (CC'rs), otherwise that is discrimination.

 

Ken

So are motorists who drive large 4 x 4 pickups and "transit" size vans being discriminated against. The rule for ordinary cars is 70mph on motorways but 4 x 4 pickups (e.g.warrior and animal) are limited to 60 mph as they are classed as commercial vehicles.

[sassan]

 

 

Last time I went down to the whole length of the K&A I found it difficult to find moorings that were useful, that is near where I wanted to be (mostly towns). I also have friends down that part of the world. I have a limited range for walking, 2 miles, so very minor mobility issues generally referred to as old age. In 7 days we can shop, visit the area, see a doctor, and arrange to see friends and generally enjoy the area. Two days is just too short as you never know where you can actually moor and so can't plan these things. The arrangements are good for people who don't want to move much, and for those travelling through, just not for those who want to simply take their own time.to do their travelling.

 

There are non-restricted moorings within easy reach of Bath (top of locks), Limpley Stoke, Avoncliff, Bradford on Avon and Semmington. I assume it's the same most of the rest of the way. Although it's not always easy to find the right spot if you're new to the area.

 

Local boaters are usually very happy to suggest suitable spots if you stop and ask them.

[Arducius]

 

 

Last time I went down to the whole length of the K&A I found it difficult to find moorings that were useful, that is near where I wanted to be (mostly towns). I also have friends down that part of the world. I have a limited range for walking, 2 miles, so very minor mobility issues generally referred to as old age. In 7 days we can shop, visit the area, see a doctor, and arrange to see friends and generally enjoy the area. Two days is just too short as you never know where you can actually moor and so can't plan these things. The arrangements are good for people who don't want to move much, and for those travelling through, just not for those who want to simply take their own time.to do their travelling.

That's slightly different then. You have specific requirements that mean a lot of the moorings that are available aren't suitable to you. Perhaps greater provision of disabled/limited access moorings is required to ensure someone in a position such as yours can plan ahead and have reliable mooring spots.

[mango]

 

 

Last time I went down to the whole length of the K&A I found it difficult to find moorings that were useful, that is near where I wanted to be (mostly towns). I also have friends down that part of the world. I have a limited range for walking, 2 miles, so very minor mobility issues generally referred to as old age. In 7 days we can shop, visit the area, see a doctor, and arrange to see friends and generally enjoy the area. Two days is just too short as you never know where you can actually moor and so can't plan these things. The arrangements are good for people who don't want to move much, and for those travelling through, just not for those who want to simply take their own time.to do their travelling.

Perhaps you might have had less problem with finding a mooring if the length of stay was shorter.

 

If something is in short demand then rationing is the fairest solution. It's good that you were not in charge of food supply during WW2.

[Quinafloat]

I have to agree with sassan, I haven't had any issues finding somewhere to moor when I've been down that end of the K&A (even in hot spots like BoA). You just have to accept that if you want to be right next to the pub* then it's likely that someone else might do too, but a short walk away from the pub will give you access to many quiet, scenic mooring spots.

 

KenK, I think it'd be good if they did apply a similar approach across the whole network. Everyone would know exactly when they had moved to the next neighbourhood and there would be no ambiguity about whether you'd moved far enough to qualify as moving into the next area.

 

*or water point, road, bins, etc

 

Mooring close to a pub is the last thing I would be interested in doing. Not all of us are interested in them.

 

As regards dividing up the whole canal and the CaRT rivers into neighbourhoods, well the only result would be a court case where CaRT would loose as they have absolutely no legal powers to do that. What is on the table is an agreement to soften the enforcement of 17,3,c,ii to a level of acceptance by the K&A boaters. It will be interesting to see if everyone plays ball.

Perhaps you might have had less problem with finding a mooring if the length of stay was shorter.

 

If something is in short demand then rationing is the fairest solution. It's good that you were not in charge of food supply during WW2.

 

I am old enough to remember rationing, it only applied to the poor.

[KenK]

So are motorists who drive large 4 x 4 pickups and "transit" size vans being discriminated against. The rule for ordinary cars is 70mph on motorways but 4 x 4 pickups (e.g.warrior and animal) are limited to 60 mph as they are classed as commercial vehicles.

Oh no they are not, like all four wheel drive vehicles they are classed as multi purpose vehicles and therefore have to obey the same limits as cars.

Commercial vans do indeed have to obey lower limits on dual carriage ways but 70 on motorways.

[craftycarper]

So are motorists who drive large 4 x 4 pickups and "transit" size vans being discriminated against. The rule for ordinary cars is 70mph on motorways but 4 x 4 pickups (e.g.warrior and animal) are limited to 60 mph as they are classed as commercial vehicles.

. I have both a 4 x4 and a transit tipper (i know what a pikey}and I have never been told this by anyone in my life are you sure of your facts I think those rules come in when you go over3 ton in weight and are subject to a plate test and Hgv licence ??????????

[Jerra]

Oh no they are not, like all four wheel drive vehicles they are classed as multi purpose vehicles and therefore have to obey the same limits as cars.

Commercial vans do indeed have to obey lower limits on dual carriage ways but 70 on motorways.

Sorry the retired policeman who took me for my speed awareness course obviously tells lies.

 

He began the session by asking who drove what and then pointed out to the drivers of the 4 x4s that they were classed as commercial vehicles and limited to 50on normal roads and 60 on the motorway. I had better get in touch with the local police and tell them their man is no good.

[Alan de Enfield]

. I have both a 4 x4 and a transit tipper (i know what a pikey}and I have never been told this by anyone in my life are you sure of your facts I think those rules come in when you go over3 ton in weight and are subject to a plate test and Hgv licence ??????????

 

"Car Derived" vehicles / vans have the same speed limits as a car.

Transit based vehicles are not 'car derived' and hence have to apply with commercial vehicle speed limits (dont ask how I know)

 

So - on "single carriageways" a car has a speed limit of 60, a 'Transit' is 50, on dual carriageways, a car has a speed limit of 70 but a 'Transit' has a limit of 60.

 

Check with the highway code. or your local Police Website

 

What is a "car derived van"?

Under the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, a "car derived van" is defined as:- "A goods vehicle which is constructed or adapted as a derivative of a passenger vehicle and which has a maximum laden weight not exceeding 2 tonnes."

The important word in this definition is "and" as there are goods vehicles that look as if they are based on a passenger vehicle, but when the manufacturer puts a gross laden weight on the goods vehicle, which is the design weight of the vehicle plus the maximum load that it is designed to carry, and this exceeds 2 tonnes, that vehicle is no longer a car derived van. The van becomes an ordinary goods vehicle under 7.5 tonnes gross weight, and is therefore subject to the speed limits as shown in the Highway Code.

 

As a "rule of thumb" any van larger than a Vauxhall Astravan will have a gross weight in excess of 2 tonnes and is therefore subject to the reduced "class of vehicle" speed limits. Ford Transit, Mercedes Sprinter, Mercedes Vito, Peugeot Expert and Ford Connect, for example, are restricted vans.

 

It is immaterial that a goods vehicle may be unladen at the time it is detected exceeding the speed limit. The construction of the vehicle that enables it to be used up to the 7.5 tonnes maximum weight is the relevant criteria.

[Paul C]

Sorry the retired policeman who took me for my speed awareness course obviously tells lies.

 

He began the session by asking who drove what and then pointed out to the drivers of the 4 x4s that they were classed as commercial vehicles and limited to 50on normal roads and 60 on the motorway. I had better get in touch with the local police and tell them their man is no good.

 

commercial vehicles like Transit van: 50 on single carriageways, 60 on dual, 70 on motorways.

 

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

[craftycarper]

commercial vehicles like Transit van: 50 on single carriageways, 60 on dual, 70 on motorways.

 

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

well you learn something new every day . While I can see my mistake with the truck I still don!t see the 4 x 4 bit mind you I drive a 1975 series 3 landy and would be over the moon to reach those heady speeds in it

[sassan]

We've strayed wildly off topic, but in doing so have avoided the customary fight. We should do this more often!

[Guest]

Jerra" data-cid="1263478" data-date="Today, 05:42 PM, on 13 Mar 2014 - 5:42 PM, said:Jerra" data-cid="1263478" data-time="1394732565" data-date="Today, 05:42 PM said:

Sorry the retired policeman who took me for my speed awareness course obviously tells lies.

 

He began the session by asking who drove what and then pointed out to the drivers of the 4 x4s that they were classed as commercial vehicles and limited to 50on normal roads and 60 on the motorway. I had better get in touch with the local police and tell them their man is no good.

I think you should, he clearly has no idea.

 

ed. ah I now see from your earlier post we are talking not just 4x4's but 4x4 pickups - intriguing.

Edited March 14, 2014 by The Dog House

[dmr]

I am not an expert on vehicle law but where I used to work he had two Transits, one had twin wheels at the back and its extra weight pushed it into a whole new category, it needed plating and also many MOT stations were unable to test it. Is this the source of the different opinions here?

 

...........Dave