Questionnaire on enhancing the manoeuvrability of canal boats via a Kitchen rudder

[Iain_S]

I think bottom line is, can you build it, plus a connection beteween engine and propshaft, for less than the cost of a gearbox?

 

On the prop fouling front, one problem is that, without a gearbox, the prop will always be turning in the same direction, and so won't be able to throw off weed, etc, with a burst of reverse.

 

Iain

[BEngo]

Having had the 'joy' of learning to steer a 32ft Naval Cutter with Kitchen Rudder I have to say that IMHO they are a device best stored with chocolate tea-pots, motorcycle ash-trays and canoe handbrakes. Neutral can be impossibly hard to find. and compared with a fixed blade and plate rudder they are less efficient going ahead and very ineffective at stopping.

 

I dread to think what the effects of backwoods BCN might be. As for trying to sort one out down a weed hatch, whoever suggested that has never tried something basic- like getting a car seat off the blades in a conventional set up. However, without a gearbox you would be forced to stop the engine before taking the weed-hatch cover off

 

The Kitchen Rudder violates two basic engineering principles- KISS and 'Simplify and add Lightness'.

 

N

[cereal tiller]

Having had the 'joy' of learning to steer a 32ft Naval Cutter with Kitchen Rudder I have to say that IMHO they are a device best stored with chocolate tea-pots, motorcycle ash-trays and canoe handbrakes. Neutral can be impossibly hard to find. and compared with a fixed blade and plate rudder they are less efficient going ahead and very ineffective at stopping.

 

I dread to think what the effects of backwoods BCN might be. As for trying to sort one out down a weed hatch, whoever suggested that has never tried something basic- like getting a car seat off the blades in a conventional set up. However, without a gearbox you would be forced to stop the engine before taking the weed-hatch cover off

 

The Kitchen Rudder violates two basic engineering principles- KISS and 'Simplify and add Lightness'.

 

N

I could not have put it better.myself!

 

All these things have been tried and tested long ago,simple and robust engineering is what inland craft need

 

It is what they usually have!

 

CT

[dor]

A moderately well designed narrowboat should be capable of turning practically in its own length. There is a technique to this, which is to get the flow from the prop attached to the rudder. It's a well-known principle of fluidics where a laminar flow will tend to hug a flat surface. Narrowboaters aware of this look at their propwash when turning, and if the flow seems to be split and going in both directions, a waggle or two of the rudder will get the flow to attach to the rudder. The difference in turning is remarkable and I doubt that the shrouded prop would do any better. A surprising number of people do seem to be unaware of this and you see them trying to wind with the engine thrashing away and almost as much propwash going the wrong way as going the right way to turn the boat.

 

This is another good reason to keep it simple and why the shrouded prop is not really used on typical canals. Picking up rubbish is a whole different issue and perhaps it would be fine on some of the bigger canals like those in the north east, but I wouldn't hold out much hope on the Shroppie. Let alone the BCN.

[Dave_P]

And lifeboats on cruise ships and ro-ro ferries, so why has it not yet been universally adopted by narrow boat builders..

It might be that it won't work but it would also be true to say that most narrowboat builders are very slow to embrace new technologies and the whole industry is mired in tradition or the illusion of it. Roses and Castles, Josher Bows and pigeon boxes abound, not to mention fake rivets... I'm not saying any of this is a bad thing but with suppliers generally sticking to tried and tested methods and many buyers looking for something they helps them to believe they're a 19th century boatman, you can see why a better type of propeller might not be adopted.

 

To each their own I say.

[Robbo]

why do so called experts try to fix things that are not broken, you can change materials but basic marine engineering principle have been round century's and or proven.

 

I agree, sails are the way forward, forget all that propeller or paddlewheel cwap...

[Alan de Enfield]

 

I agree, sails are the way forward, ...

 

If God had meant you to live life at 45 degrees he would have given you one leg longer than the other

[Northernboater]

See the following link to the forum thread about the rudder configuration that the OP is talking about and a video showing the manoeuvrability.

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=19521&page=2

 

A link to Youtube to see it on the water.

 

Edited February 25, 2014 by Northernboater

[Paul G2]

I am a final year mechanical engineering student and my final year project is based on the Kitchen rudder. To do some market research to find out if the Kitchen rudder presents a viable business opportunity, could anyone who owns a canal boat, narrow boat or other inland waterway craft please fill in the questionnaire via the link attached. It is 8 multiple choice questions so it should not take too long.

Thanks

 

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1uD9nFlbveynFKJm9r9VS_ZIMRcigkBzq2NipwIny4xM/viewform

 

Looking at your responses to some of the other posts here, you appear to have already made up your mind that the Kitchen rudder would be great for NBs. Your admiration for the rudder is made obvious by your defense of it against potential problems raised by forum members.

 

Chances are that you are going to write a report that supports the Kitchen rudder, if for no other reason than because the person grading your project has a Kitchen rudder on his NB. If you really wanted to do a real market study that had meaning in the real world, you need to put your personal prejudices aside and try to be as objective as possible.

[Alan de Enfield]

I'm not sure what benefit the video is showing - with a conventional rudder I can just about pivot around the centre of the boat "turn on a sixpence".

 

It just looks like a lot of extra rods and linkages to go wrong/ fail for no appreciable benefit.

[Graham Davis]

See the following link to the forum thread about the rudder configuration that the OP is talking about and a video showing the manoeuvrability.

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=19521&page=2

 

A link to Youtube to see it on the water.

 

To be honest, that video proves nothing, as there needs to be a comparison with the same boat fitted with a normal rudder doing the same thing.

 

And why is the tiller at such a strange angle?

[Alan de Enfield]

Graham Davis, on 25 Feb 2014 - 5:32 PM, said:

 

 

And why is the tiller at such a strange angle?

 

It has to be on a universal-joint to enable all the linkages to move the 'clam-shell' up / down / right / left / open / closed and any combination thereof.

 

[Graham Davis]

If it is a universal joint then I would have thought they could have made it more "normal"

[Grace and Favour]

Hasn't Biggles got a Kitchen set-up on his W/B?

[MtB]

It might be that it won't work but it would also be true to say that most narrowboat builders are very slow to embrace new technologies and the whole industry is mired in tradition or the illusion of it. Roses and Castles, Josher Bows and pigeon boxes abound, not to mention fake rivets...

 

Since when were fake rivets 'traditional'??

 

 

MtB

[mattlad]

It might be that it won't work but it would also be true to say that most narrowboat builders are very slow to embrace new technologies and the whole industry is mired in tradition or the illusion of it. Roses and Castles, Josher Bows and pigeon boxes abound, not to mention fake rivets... I'm not saying any of this is a bad thing but with suppliers generally sticking to tried and tested methods and many buyers looking for something they helps them to believe they're a 19th century boatman, you can see why a better type of propeller might not be adopted.

 

To each their own I say.

 

 

 

Since when were fake rivets 'traditional'??

 

 

MtB

Proof that narrowboat builders are embracing new technologies!

[FadeToScarlet]

Hasn't Biggles got a Kitchen set-up on his W/B?

A Schilling, a more aero foil shaped rudder.

[ditchcrawler]

A Schilling, a more aero foil shaped rudder.

And how many Narrowboat builders fit one of them, none, so they cant be any good ether, bit like two pack paint and propellers with square blades.

[chris1234]

When I do my report, if the overwelming view among the canal boat community is that the KR would be unsuitable for the job, then it would not make a good business opportunity. So all the responses, even the negative ones are helpful.

 

The info on other parts of the canal network, like the BCN, is useful as I don't have any first hand experience of it.

[Grace and Favour]

A Schilling, a more aero foil shaped rudder.

Ah! I thank you

[Alan de Enfield]

The Schilling was the currency of Austria from 1924 to 1938 and from 1945 to 1999, and the circulating currency until 2002. The euro was introduced at a fixed parity of €1 = 13.7603 schilling to replace it. The schilling was divided into 100 Groschen.

 

The smaller Groschen coins were manufactured from Aluminium and feel very 'strange'

[Paul C]

When I do my report, if the overwelming view among the canal boat community is that the KR would be unsuitable for the job, then it would not make a good business opportunity. So all the responses, even the negative ones are helpful.

 

The info on other parts of the canal network, like the BCN, is useful as I don't have any first hand experience of it.

 

Have you started the project or are you scoping out ideas? Given the strong lack of feasibility/interest in this type of rudder for a canal boat, it might be worth choosing a different subject, one which has a realistic hope of getting to market and being accepted?

[Robbo]

And how many Narrowboat builders fit one of them, none, so they cant be any good ether, bit like two pack paint and propellers with square blades.

 

My guess it's more to do with the extra cost and most customers wouldn't care or notice the difference as they just want a floating box that can move.

[RLWP]

 

Have you started the project or are you scoping out ideas? Given the strong lack of feasibility/interest in this type of rudder for a canal boat, it might be worth choosing a different subject, one which has a realistic hope of getting to market and being accepted?

 

Except it's a project as part of his course, not a business opportunity. He has to do the necessary things to complete the coursework, like the questionnaire

When I do my report, if the overwelming view among the canal boat community is that the KR would be unsuitable for the job, then it would not make a good business opportunity. So all the responses, even the negative ones are helpful.

 

 

One of the problems you have is that your responders will be self selecting. If you are interested in Kitchen rudders, or keen on new boating technologies, you will fill in the questionnaire. If you are not, you won't. So you are likely to get a positive result.

 

Not that it matters, what matters is that you do the necessary stuff to get your qualification, and good for you

 

Richard

Edited February 26, 2014 by RLWP

[Dave_P]

Most studies like this are self-selecting in one way or another. What's important is that the researcher comments on that when discussing the limitations of the study.