Video about CCers

[mango]

Hi ya, i have no dealings with this CRT which is I take it is the organization in charge in some way of the waterways that most use,

However,just to put a point on what you said above, it could be argued, it's also not our job to decide who is living compliant within the law,as far as say Burglary,Theft,Road tax evasion, or assault to others ect ect is concerned, that's a job for the police,,but it's good social practice to help the police DO there job sometimes, isn't it ?.

Absolutely.

[NigelMoore]

I never suggested that it should tackle any one set. In fact I mentioned the separate problem of a group that fail to license their craft.

 

I suspect that I phrased my last sentence badly, and failed to get across my meaning.

 

I haven’t seen that there IS a problem unique to CC’ers. Problems of congestion and obstruction of facilities for example, which seems to be the root cause of trouble, are down to all types of boaters. I fully agree that the authority should be encouraged to tackle the above problems, what I was attempting to ask was, why should those who commit such offences be divided into those who should be pursued and those who should not?

 

In other words, I didn’t imagine for one moment that you had in mind only one set of offences that needing tackling, rather it seemed that you understood those offences requiring tackling, as being committed only by the CC class – with which I would disagree.

 

You have now clarified for me in your own last sentence, that the specific offence you align with CC’ers is licence evasion, which goes some way to answering the query I had. However, I see no evidence for CC’ers being distinctly identifiable as “a group that fail to license their craft”.

 

All types of boaters can and do betimes, fail to license their craft. The class of CC’ers might perhaps be seen as providing a greater proportion – but not usually of their own volition; the cases arriving in court usually entail situations where the authority itself has refused the licence. It would be far more difficult to refuse licences to those with home moorings [though it is done].

 

That ties in with what I have said respecting the only tangible difference between the 'classes' of pleasure boater - that the sanction of licence withdrawal is one CC'ers are more susceptible to, for the same 'offences'. The problems of obstructive boaters should be tackled without targeting any one 'group' amongst those offenders, simply because they are easier targets.

[mango]

If continuous cruisers want to gain more respect, I believe they need to publicly condemn those who don't follow the rules.

 

 

Don't need to, I'll quote it then

 

 

I doubt with such crass statements you're gaining any respect

I don't think there is anything wrong with what I have written. I am not looking for respect, but I do not appreciate your rude comments.

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

Ok, how do I decide who is compliant or not?

who says you have to either know,get involved or help any organization in any way. Just carry on cruising,or not as the case may be.

 

Well i guess it's like anything else,you apply intelligence & common sense,both of which I lack,apparently.

My point was made for decusion, I haven't got the answers, just making a comparison.

Edited February 23, 2014 by Paul's Nulife4-2

[Guest]

Hi ya, i have no dealings with this CRT which is I take it is the organization in charge in some way of the waterways that most use,

However,just to put a point on what you said above, it could be argued, it's also not our job to decide who is living compliant within the law,as far as say Burglary,Theft,Road tax evasion, or assault to others ect ect is concerned, that's a job for the police,,but it's good social practice to help the police DO there job sometimes, isn't it ?.

That would Definitely divide the group's,,

I don't know if it help or hinders the Them & us types arguments.

 

I think the possible problem with boaters assisting CRT in identifying none compliant boaters is that they end up potentially fingering people wrongly because as a boater you don't really have the tools to be able to satisfactorily say if somebody is moving enough, CRT do.

 

OK it may be or seem obvious that a particular boat has been in a particular location for more than 14 days but in order to be 100% sure about this the boater doing the 'reporting' would need to have been there too for the same time period, and if they are a boater with out a home mooring they too would have had to be falling foul of CRT's requirements in order to have 'witnessed' the overstaying.

 

Of course we could perhaps expect leisure boaters who may be pootling up and down the same stretch to tip CRT off about a particular boat overstaying in an area but for all I know they may have the OK to be there and that approach is hardly likely to enhance the relationships between leisure boaters and CCer's...

[jenlyn]

who says you have to either know,get involved or help any organization in any way.

Well i guess it's like anything else,you apply intelligence & common sense,both of which I lack,apparently.

My point was made for decusion, I haven't got the answers, just making a comparison.

Well, you yourself could also get involved. The trust are constantly looking for volunteers, would you like the link to the page?

[mango]

 

I suspect that I phrased my last sentence badly, and failed to get across my meaning.

 

I haven’t seen that there IS a problem unique to CC’ers. Problems of congestion and obstruction of facilities for example, which seems to be the root cause of trouble, are down to all types of boaters. I fully agree that the authority should be encouraged to tackle the above problems, what I was attempting to ask was, why should those who commit such offences be divided into those who should be pursued and those who should not?

 

In other words, I didn’t imagine for one moment that you had in mind only one set of offences that needing tackling, rather it seemed that you understood those offences requiring tackling, as being committed only by the CC class – with which I would disagree.

 

You have now clarified for me in your own last sentence, that the specific offence you align with CC’ers is licence evasion, which goes some way to answering the query I had. However, I see no evidence for CC’ers being distinctly identifiable as “a group that fail to license their craft”.

 

All types of boaters can and do betimes, fail to license their craft. The class of CC’ers might perhaps be seen as providing a greater proportion – but not usually of their own volition; the cases arriving in court usually entail situations where the authority itself has refused the licence. It would be far more difficult to refuse licences to those with home moorings [though it is done].

 

That ties in with what I have said respecting the only tangible difference between the 'classes' of pleasure boater - that the sanction of licence withdrawal is one CC'ers are more susceptible to, for the same 'offences'. The problems of obstructive boaters should be tackled without targeting any one 'group' amongst those offenders, simply because they are easier targets.

If you have a look at my original post I referred to licensing evasion as an issue that BW/CRT has done a lot to tackle. I did not accuse continuous cruisers of licence evasion.

[Ex- Member]

I don't think there is anything wrong with what I have written. I am not looking for respect, but I do not appreciate your rude comments.

 

 

Your statement implies that Continuous cruisers need respect as you claim they don't condemn those who don't follow rules.

 

If continuous cruisers want to gain more respect, I believe they need to publicly condemn those who don't follow the rules.

 

 

I Don't need to gain respect from a Richard like you or anyone else, nor do the thousands on CCer who cruise the system and comply with the rules. I suggest it's your extreme rudeness toward CCer's that's the problem.

Edited February 23, 2014 by Julynian

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

It's a difficult one,isn't it DH..

but I have seen this subject come up and dominant threads,rais temperatures and divide members all the time, so it's obviously vigorously argued by all.

So it must be like tip toeing through a Minefield.

 

What is the answer,,there surly has to be one ?.

 

No thanks Jenlyn,it would encroach on my Cider & Donut consumption time.besides, I'm not clever enough to be political.

Edited February 23, 2014 by Paul's Nulife4-2

[alan_fincher]

Are there any statisitcs that tell us -

Total number of canal boats / licences that exist at the moment

Number that are live aboards

Number that have a cc licence

Number that have a home moring

Number that are mored in off line marinas, basins etc.

I realise that some fall in more than one of these categories

 

Total number of canal boats / licences that exist at the moment Yes

Number that are live aboards I doubt it, as I do not believe there is anywhere anybody declares this in most circumstances. Anyway define "live-aboard" - somebody who has no other home but the boat?

Number that have a cc licence Yes - CRT publish numbers for those making a "no home mooring" declaration

Number that have a home moring Surely broadly the first number minus the third number?

Number that are mored in off line marinas, basins etc. I have not seen any number (or even estimate) that differentiates between those with on-line and off-line home moorings - that is not to say it does not exist.

 

From the CRT annual report year ended 31st March 2013

 

Analysis of Boat Licence and Moorings income

As at 31 March 2013 there were 33,227 boats with 12 month licences issued to use theTrust’s waterways. This represents a fall of 1.4% compared with the equivalent figure as at 31 March 2012.

Boating and mooring statistics

Long term boat licence income £k* £12,611

Number of boats with 12 month licences as at 31 March 2013 33,227

Income per private long term licence (annualised) £528

Income from mooring permits £k* £3,678

Number of mooring berths available 3,767

Occupancy rate % 89%

Income yield per berth (annualised) £ £1,469

* the income is for the nine month period to 31 March 2013.

 

 

 

The number of licence holders with no home mooring does not seem to be quoted in that report, but the number often cited is about 4,500, which means about 13.5% of licensed boats are declared as "no home mooring, I believe". this percentage is increasing, beacuse the number making the declaration goes up, whilst the overall number of licences is falling slowly.

Edited February 23, 2014 by alan_fincher

[mango]

 

 

Your statement implies that Continuous cruisers need respect as you claim they don't condemn those who don't follow rules.

 

 

I Don't need to gain respect from a Richard like you or anyone else, nor do the thousands on CCer who cruise the system and comply with the rules. I suggest it's your extreme rudeness toward CCer's that's the problem.

I don't believe I have been rude to anyone. I wonder if you have a chip on your shoulder, or perhaps the whole fish supper. Thats as rude as I'm going to get.

[Starcoaster]

Regarding the queries regarding which way the trend is going in general regarding people going from a home mooring to CC'ing or vice versa:

 

From Jan 2013 to the present, an average of 67 boats new to CRT waters per month have declared as continuous cruisers.

Added to this, the net figure of existing boaters going from a declared home mooring to continuous cruising averages 36 per month during the same period, so over all, more existing boaters per month are going onto CC status than coming off it.

 

As of September 2013, there were around 5,000 declared CC'ers on CRT waters.

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

My word, Approximately 33,400 boats with 12 month license,of which 5000 are CCrs to date.

Then the unlicensed boats (any one care to guess !) Lets just round it up to 34,000 Boats !.. All on approx 2000 mile of waterway.(Have I got the figure right)

Now I can see some of the problem,,it's full,,over petscribed surly.

[Ex- Member]

I don't believe I have been rude to anyone. I wonder if you have a chip on your shoulder, or perhaps the whole fish supper. Thats as rude as I'm going to get.

 

That just confirms your complete ignorance then

[alan_fincher]

As of September 2013, there were around 5,000 declared CC'ers on CRT waters.

 

Strict pedant mode.....

 

I believe the number of licensed boats, (including counts of those with no home mooring), includes Gold licence hoders.

 

So at any particular time, some of the Gold licence holders, (including those with no home mooring declared to CRT), will not be on CRT waters.

 

There is no way of telling what the number "absent" from CRT waters is though, but some will be.

[Starcoaster]

Ok pedant, "those in possession of a licence that allows them to boat on CRT waters" then.

[Alan de Enfield]

My word, Approximately 33,400 boats with 12 month license,of which 5000 are CCrs to date.

Then the unlicensed boats (any one care to guess !) Lets just round it up to 34,000 Boats !.. All on approx 2000 mile of waterway.(Have I got the figure right)

Now I can see some of the problem,,it's full,,over petscribed surly.

 

So, 2000 miles of waterway and 34,000 boats thats = 0.0588 miles per boat (roughly 310 feet per boat).

 

If we take the average boat length as being 50 feet we can cruise 260 feet before coming across another boat

 

Assuming 'no off-line' moorings the capacity (without breasting up) is 211,200 boats at an average length of 50 feet

 

Fortunately a vast percentage of the boats are either in marinas or moored up so the situation is not quite as bad as it would seem

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

Wow,

260 ft of uninterrupted cruising,,that's worth the license right there, yes ofcourse I mean that tung (sorry,don't know how to spell it) in cheek.as I assume it's the same nature Alen presented the worst case scenario figures above. ( just to clarify before it's pounced upon)

 

I can sort of make sense of some of the arguments now though,ref Overstayers, Water points,Elson points, Unlicensed boats ect ect,

Even if you half that volume of boats or say it's 15,000 being used at any one time,in the summer months it must be merder at the Towns, City's, Hot Spots.my word, Does anyoneknow how many Water points and Elson points service the Approx 2000 mile of waterways & the 34,000 boats ?.

Yes,,that's been an education, ( oops,I know some people don't like the idea of being here to help Educate others, so I will forget this stuff immediately.sorry)

Edited February 23, 2014 by Paul's Nulife4-2

[Paul C]

The funny thing is, with rare exceptions its never really that busy while out crusing. Yes, if you go on a week's holiday on the Llangollen in summertime August bank holiday, it will be busy. Yes, queues can form at pinch point locks, but its rarely congested to a point you'd get frustrated. Mooring up at the end of the day is slightly different, in that if you really want a hotspot area (such as, continuing the Llangollen example, Ellesmere arm) then you're advised to get there early afternoon rather than late evening. But if you're not fussy then a little out of Ellesmere will be quiet and easily possible to find just as nice a mooring.

 

The mooring congestion/overcrowding 'issue' does seem to be a regional issue in a handful of hotspot areas, not a widespread one.

[Thorfast]

The continuous cruisers should be thankful that all those in marinas do not decide to be out on the cut all at the same time. Marinas are keeping the canals freer for those who want to cruise.

[alan_fincher]

 

So, 2000 miles of waterway and 34,000 boats thats = 0.0588 miles per boat (roughly 310 feet per boat).

 

If we take the average boat length as being 50 feet we can cruise 260 feet before coming across another boat

 

Assuming 'no off-line' moorings the capacity (without breasting up) is 211,200 boats at an average length of 50 feet

 

Fortunately a vast percentage of the boats are either in marinas or moored up so the situation is not quite as bad as it would seem

 

Ah but this assumes even distribution.

 

If you recall the rantings of Vaughan Welch about the "London Problem" then boats are continually double or triple breasted along more or less the entirety of the Paddington Arm and the Regents, and right through onto the Lee.

 

Provided you ignore those bits, surely most of the rest is considerably less crowded, because according to our Vaughan, a large slice of all boats are concentrated in just one small area!

[Alex&Derek]

 

Ah but this assumes even distribution.

 

If you recall the rantings of Vaughan Welch about the "London Problem" then boats are continually double or triple breasted along more or less the entirety of the Paddington Arm and the Regents, and right through onto the Lee.

 

Provided you ignore those bits, surely most of the rest is considerably less crowded, because according to our Vaughan, a large slice of all boats are concentrated in just one small area!

Ah Alan, that was so last year. London mooring now quadruple beasted from Uxbridge to Bishop's Stortford solid. Had to wait 3 days to get on the services only to find someone had pinched the tap.

[madcat]

If I could find a way to sell second hand arguments on eBay I could make a good living off this site.

 

I do wish we could all just be boaters first and all the sub categories second.

 

I started to watch this and then it stopped working, pity I thought it looked interesting so will try again tomorrow .

[NigelMoore]

If you have a look at my original post I referred to licensing evasion as an issue that BW/CRT has done a lot to tackle. I did not accuse continuous cruisers of licence evasion.

 

Then I have sadly misunderstood your response, and therefore still do not know what offences unique to CC'ers you are thinking of.

[alan_fincher]

If I could find a way to sell second hand arguments on eBay I could make a good living off this site.

 

I do wish we could all just be boaters first and all the sub categories second.

 

I started to watch this and then it stopped working, pity I thought it looked interesting so will try again tomorrow .

 

I have to agree, but with so many similar threads on the go, I must admit I have stopped trying to follow them all - it is becoming rather depressing, (to me at least!).

 

When I campaigned for a "Boater" place on CRT Council, I thought it very important to run on a "ticket" that sought to find common ground, and to try and knock down some of these artificial divides and categorisations - hopefully many agreed with that, as I estimate I had similar amounts of support in my endeavours from CC-ers or non CC-ers, (or maybe I mean live-aboards or non live-aboards, but I'm sure you get my drift!).

 

For a while I naively thought a lot of progress was being made in that direction - not by me, particularly, but a lot of people who seemed keen to kill old attitudes, and look for common ground when we engaged with CRT.

 

Unfortunately from my perception we seem to be slipping back far more into the "us and them", or at least it would seem so if you believe Internet forums, Facebook groups, and the like.

 

Take for example the idea that "it is the CC-ers keeping many canal traders alive, and without them lots of canal-side businesses would fold, and not be there for the non-CCers", (not sure if that came up in this thread or another one). Of course it is possible to counter that with "how many canal-side businesses would remain if the only boats that were out there were the 5000 or so CC-ers, and the near 30,000 non-CCers didn't exist".

 

In my view going round such loops gets us nowhere - I think the future of boat ownership and boating would be far more secure if we were to realise that many of our requirements are common, (we mostly all need to buy diesel, and get boats blacked), but that the canals and rivers only work so well because of the huge differences in how we make use of our boats, (those of us who put in maybe a 1000 or so miles in a year probably wouldn't enjoy it much if everybody tried to, because it would be gridlock, so why get uptight about people not moving large distances - thank goodness many don't!).

 

Perhaps I'm just too much of a dreamer when I hope that it is possible to do things that may improve things for many boat owners, but which don't have to have adverse effects on others, (except maybe a very small number who have very little concern for anything other than their own personal agenda, and who probably will never be willing to see the waterways as a resource that can accommodate us all, if we are prepared to act in a way that the majority would call reasonable).

 

I think I urgently need to get boating again, as the continual recycled debate you refer to really isn't doing much a lot of the time other than perpetuating divides that I consider most unhelpful!

 

Final thought: Look at the thread title here "Video about CC-ers", but the main boater shown in the piece is someone who has currently given up CC-ing, and now moors permanently on a residential mooring. Another one featured has also alternated between having a home mooing and being a CC-er. Can't we call it "Video about boaters", which would then be valid whatever those shown in it decide to do about their future mooring or cruising choices - why should it matter?

Edited February 23, 2014 by alan_fincher