Another eviction

[nbfiresprite]

Think of a reasonable price for one night's mooring.

Multiply by 5.

That's "coastal".

Multiply by 10 for the south coast

[MtB]

A cheap night on the Thames betweeon Oxford and Teddington seems to cost a fiver. £7 is common and a tenner here and there.

 

Are you saying a southe coast harbour costs fifty quid a night?!

 

 

MtB

[Guest]

A cheap night on the Thames betweeon Oxford and Teddington seems to cost a fiver. £7 is common and a tenner here and there.

 

Are you saying a southe coast harbour costs fifty quid a night?!

 

 

MtB

 

Torquay picked at random.

 

http://www.mdlmarinas.co.uk/mdl-torquay-marina

 

Edited February 19, 2014 by The Dog House

[mayalld]

Firstly, please don't suggest that Rod has mental health issues. He doesn't. Derek Newton's use of the word 'aggressive' in his Termination Notice was a lie to back up a shaky case. We have suggested in a response to him that the word is potentially defamatory, and the comments here will make for useful evidence if there is a final court case to evict Rod and Annie.

 

The description is only potentially defamatory if Mr Newton "publishes" it.

 

So far as I can see, Mr Newton sent it as a private letter, and the recipients and their friends have published it.

[PoplarBoater]

Can you expand on the implications of a marina being 'coastal' please?

 

Richard

BWML's T&C's and Berth Conditions - all available at www.bwml.co.uk/customer-info classify certain marinas as inland, others as coastal. The classifications seem arbitrary. They allow themselves to charge an extra 30% widebeam charge _for boats taking up more than one mooring_. In Coastal marinas, the threshold is 4.5m (eg. Limehouse - connected to 2 canals and the Thames). In Inland Marinas, the threshold is 3m (eg. Poplar - 2m downriver from Limehouse, 1m on land, connected to the Thames and totally disconnected from the inland network by 2miles of fast-flowing tidal river...). Also, the Waterways Ombudsman stated that it was clear that not a single boat in Poplar was taking up more than one mooring.

 

3m is not a wide beam for a sea-going or estuary boat. A lot of boats in Poplar are not capable of accessing the inland network - due to draft, air draft, length etc. - but by no means are the majority large boats. The maximum length in Poplar is around 22m, whereas the neighbouring Blackwall Basin (C&RT-managed) has 38m x 6m Dutch barges paying, in some cases, less than a 12m x 3.05m cruiser in Poplar.

 

If £12,000 to £15,000 per annum is a fair market rate, why is it that nobody can sell their boat in Poplar?

 

The issue comes down to BWML having the right to dictate whatever T&C's they choose, but to ignore them when they see fit.

[MtB]

 

Torquay picked at random.

 

http://www.mdlmarinas.co.uk/mdl-torquay-marina

 

 

 

Makes Poplar Marina look cheap doesn't it?!

 

MtB

[Naughty Cal]

A cheap night on the Thames betweeon Oxford and Teddington seems to cost a fiver. £7 is common and a tenner here and there.

 

Are you saying a southe coast harbour costs fifty quid a night?!

 

 

MtB

Depends how big your boat is but on the East coast we pay anywhere from £16 (Grimsby) to £28 (Southwold + £4.83 per night for electric so £32.83 per night) and thats for a 23ft boat. (It shrinks when it comes to harbour dues )

BWML's T&C's and Berth Conditions - all available at www.bwml.co.uk/customer-info classify certain marinas as inland, others as coastal. The classifications seem arbitrary. They allow themselves to charge an extra 30% widebeam charge _for boats taking up more than one mooring_. In Coastal marinas, the threshold is 4.5m (eg. Limehouse - connected to 2 canals and the Thames). In Inland Marinas, the threshold is 3m (eg. Poplar - 2m downriver from Limehouse, 1m on land, connected to the Thames and totally disconnected from the inland network by 2miles of fast-flowing tidal river...). Also, the Waterways Ombudsman stated that it was clear that not a single boat in Poplar was taking up more than one mooring.

 

3m is not a wide beam for a sea-going or estuary boat. A lot of boats in Poplar are not capable of accessing the inland network - due to draft, air draft, length etc. - but by no means are the majority large boats. The maximum length in Poplar is around 22m, whereas the neighbouring Blackwall Basin (C&RT-managed) has 38m x 6m Dutch barges paying, in some cases, less than a 12m x 3.05m cruiser in Poplar.

 

If £12,000 to £15,000 per annum is a fair market rate, why is it that nobody can sell their boat in Poplar?

 

The issue comes down to BWML having the right to dictate whatever T&C's they choose, but to ignore them when they see fit.

If you dont like what they are charging move to another marina.

 

BWML is no different to any other marina operator. They can alter their T&C's to suit their mood.

[PoplarBoater]

 

The description is only potentially defamatory if Mr Newton "publishes" it.

 

So far as I can see, Mr Newton sent it as a private letter, and the recipients and their friends have published it.

The letter is 'on the record' and will be forwarded up through C&RT, or produced in court, in due course. When our MP has written in the past to BWML, C&RT and the DEFRA Minister, an early intimation (or downright lie), through several reiterations, seems to become an established fact.

[raymondh]

Gallions Point Marina

Fees

Mooring fee is £4.16 inc vat per meter per week, or £1.25p per foot per week.

Minimum charge for a mooring is 6m (20ft).

Overnight mooring, starting at £12.00 is available with a discount for club bookings.

Is this coastal?

Ray

[nicknorman]

?.. But it still doesn't give them an excuse to evict him.

...

 

Yes...Rod is standing up to them - he is not being vexatious - just following procedure.

 

 

Firstly, thanks for putting your perspective and you and your fellow boaters at Poplar obviously are finding yourselves in an unpleasant situation, HOWEVER:

 

Regarding the two point above, the marina is a commercial enterprise and they have all the excuse they need to evict someone. They can do it just because they don't like his face. So please don't pollute your point with such inaccuracies. If you mean that it shouldn't be an excuse, well that is your opinion, but don't present your opinion as if it were fact when it isn't.

 

Secondly, I have no idea what Rod is like but the letter makes reference to aggressive behaviour towards the staff. Who knows wether this is true or not and to what degree, but if it is true then that in itself is sufficient grounds for eviction.

 

Finally, taking your point about no-where else to go, perhaps this is a point you should have considered before putting yourself at the mercy of a commercial enterprise who have no need to be concerned with your welfare. You knew the situation regarding security of tenure when you went there (or should have done).

 

Yes I'm sure you think I am unsympathetic and that is partly true, but I can see both sides of it. If I am honest it is the current fad for trial and government by twitter/Facebook campaigns that irks, since so often these are based in bluster and emotion and conveniently miss out some important facts. A kind of mass bullying which the recipient is not empowered to defend against.

[mayalld]

BWML's T&C's and Berth Conditions - all available at www.bwml.co.uk/customer-info classify certain marinas as inland, others as coastal. The classifications seem arbitrary. They allow themselves to charge an extra 30% widebeam charge _for boats taking up more than one mooring_. In Coastal marinas, the threshold is 4.5m (eg. Limehouse - connected to 2 canals and the Thames). In Inland Marinas, the threshold is 3m (eg. Poplar - 2m downriver from Limehouse, 1m on land, connected to the Thames and totally disconnected from the inland network by 2miles of fast-flowing tidal river...). Also, the Waterways Ombudsman stated that it was clear that not a single boat in Poplar was taking up more than one mooring.

 

3m is not a wide beam for a sea-going or estuary boat. A lot of boats in Poplar are not capable of accessing the inland network - due to draft, air draft, length etc. - but by no means are the majority large boats. The maximum length in Poplar is around 22m, whereas the neighbouring Blackwall Basin (C&RT-managed) has 38m x 6m Dutch barges paying, in some cases, less than a 12m x 3.05m cruiser in Poplar.

 

If £12,000 to £15,000 per annum is a fair market rate, why is it that nobody can sell their boat in Poplar?

 

The issue comes down to BWML having the right to dictate whatever T&C's they choose, but to ignore them when they see fit.

 

Thank you for a clear explanation of the underlying issues.

 

Unfortunately the whole thing seems to hinge on asking the ombudsman, or a court to decide which group of marinas BWML places each marina into. They aren't going to do that. BWML can chose to group it marinas in any way that it wishes, and to set charges as it wishes. These are commercial decisions for them to make, and a court will not interfere.

 

It isn't a technicality. Rather that it is outwith the remit of the court to interfere.

 

The letter is 'on the record' and will be forwarded up through C&RT, or produced in court, in due course. When our MP has written in the past to BWML, C&RT and the DEFRA Minister, an early intimation (or downright lie), through several reiterations, seems to become an established fact.

 

The letter can be produced as anybody desires, but any claim that it was defamatory will fail, because it is in the public domain only because the person claiming to have been defamed put it there.

[The Director]

Depends how big your boat is but on the East coast we pay anywhere from £16 (Grimsby) to £28 (Southwold + £4.83 per night for electric so £32.83 per night) and thats for a 23ft boat. (It shrinks when it comes to harbour dues )

If you dont like what they are charging move to another marina.

 

BWML is no different to any other marina operator. They can alter their T&C's to suit their mood.

 

 

There ARE no other marina's to move to for some of these boats. And moving out of the area would mean people lost their livelihood.

 

It isn't right that anyone can change their T&C's to suit their mood - that alone is worth fighting for!

[magnetman]

Black wall basin 35x5m LEISURE auctioned 2012 went for 14k per year.

 

OK some people will be on lower rates because they were there before the auction system but I imagine their rates will become more closely aligned with market rate at some point.

 

Its simple business economics afaics

[nicknorman]

 

Firstly, please don't suggest that Rod has mental health issues. He doesn't....

 

Derek Newton's use of the word 'aggressive' in his Termination Notice was a lie to back up a shaky case.

 

 

The reason given was Rod's complaint, pure and simple.

 

 

Your first point above: please read the thread properly before jumping in with false accusations. No-one said this about Rod

 

Second point. How do you know this? Were you present each time Rod interacted with the staff. Methinks you are making this point up, neither you nor I know whether this is true or not.

 

Third point. You are patently incorrect. The letter clearly states that Rod's alleged aggressive behaviour was a factor in their decision.

[magnetman]

Traditionally if you can no longer afford to live in an area due to rent increases you go elsewhere. You don't have to like it

 

The marina is there to make money not to give people security of tenure.

 

Social type marinas is a possible option but land costs are too high really and CRT is not a charity

 

 

 

 

 

Oh yes it is

[Naughty Cal]

 

 

There ARE no other marina's to move to for some of these boats. And moving out of the area would mean people lost their livelihood.

 

It isn't right that anyone can change their T&C's to suit their mood - that alone is worth fighting for!

 

Really?

[Pen n Ink]

Once again I'm afraid I have to find myself speaking as I find.

 

If I had a customer of my business who had spent several years objecting to my terms and conditions, and only begrudgingly paying up for my services, and who had caused me considerable expense in both time and money to manage their affairs, and if their business was only a small fraction of my total, then I would definitely be writing to them declining to accept any further business from them.

 

The whys and wherefores of the argument are irrelevant in a commercial environment. BWML and CaRT are no different to any other business who have to take appropriate steps to safeguard their efforts.

 

People who choose to live on wide beam boats MUST accept responsibility for that decision, wherever they moor, and likewise MUST accept that businesses from whom they purchase services have a perfect right to run the businesses as they see fit, even if that doesn't suit the boaters requirements. And Choice here is the important bit.

 

Sorry but it's a vote for put up and shut up for me.

[nicknorman]

It isn't right that anyone can change their T&C's to suit their mood - that alone is worth fighting for!

Of course businesses can change their Ts and Cs to suit their mood, provided it is allowed in whatever contract you have with them. Oh, you mean just in your personal situation you don't like it when Ts and Cs change makes your situation worse? Presumably if it made it better, that would be OK?

You are living in cloud cuckoo land.

[magnetman]

That is true actually For big boats nothing else in close proximity / cheap which is what people want.

[Naughty Cal]

 

 

There ARE no other marina's to move to for some of these boats. And moving out of the area would mean people lost their livelihood.

 

It isn't right that anyone can change their T&C's to suit their mood - that alone is worth fighting for!

 

If you read your T&C's when you signed up for the mooring there would no doubt have been a statement somewhere about them being able to change the terms and conditions.

 

You signed up too it, you took that choice. So no it isnt worth fighting for

[magnetman]

The point is that under £10k to live on a boat 5 minutes from canary wharf is comparatively (rent a high rise council flat instead?) Good Value

[PoplarBoater]

If you dont like what they are charging move to another marina.

 

BWML is no different to any other marina operator. They can alter their T&C's to suit their mood.

Many of the smaller boats WILL move out if BWML/C&RT won't see sense. But does anyone seriously think there's a big queue of people willing to pay nearly £13,000 to berth my example above of a 12m x 3.05m boat? Even London prices do not support this - as shown objectively by the PLA Consultation I quoted above. So the marina ends up 70% occupied, which is roughly BWML's average across their marinas - is it good business to alienate all your customers, destroy a functioning and supportive community with strong local links and jobs/businesses, only to realise in a couple of years that you're making less money than previously, and destroyed the 'National Trust of the Waterways' brand in the process ?

 

BWML IS different to other marinas - it was handed a nationally-owned asset to play with, but still can't make a decent profit because it is badly managed, wasteful and inefficient, and is supposedly bound by a complaints procedure. It's different because it's a wholly-owned subsidiary of C&RT - even if it's a commercial arm of the charity, it has to conform to the charitable aims and uphold the brand's good name.

[Guest]

 

Social type marinas is a possible option but land costs are too high really and CRT is not a charity

 

Oh yes it is

 

This is part of the problem in that some people expect that because CRT is a registered charity it is some how expected to at all times behave in a charitable way towards others. Being a registered charity does not necessarily mean they have to behave like Scope or Age UK or the Red Cross, it is not that type of charity, it is merely an organisation that has charitable status.

 

Sometimes people need to untangle the two.

[Naughty Cal]

That is true actually For big boats nothing else in close proximity / cheap which is what people want.

 

And that is BWML's problem how?

Many of the smaller boats WILL move out if BWML/C&RT won't see sense. But does anyone seriously think there's a big queue of people willing to pay nearly £13,000 to berth my example above of a 12m x 3.05m boat? Even London prices do not support this - as shown objectively by the PLA Consultation I quoted above. So the marina ends up 70% occupied, which is roughly BWML's average across their marinas - is it good business to alienate all your customers, destroy a functioning and supportive community with strong local links and jobs/businesses, only to realise in a couple of years that you're making less money than previously, and destroyed the 'National Trust of the Waterways' brand in the process ?

 

BWML IS different to other marinas - it was handed a nationally-owned asset to play with, but still can't make a decent profit because it is badly managed, wasteful and inefficient, and is supposedly bound by a complaints procedure. It's different because it's a wholly-owned subsidiary of C&RT - even if it's a commercial arm of the charity, it has to conform to the charitable aims and uphold the brand's good name.

 

Actually yes I do think £13k to moor your boat in central London is a good price.

 

Take it to the south coast if you think that price is high

Many of the smaller boats WILL move out if BWML/C&RT won't see sense. But does anyone seriously think there's a big queue of people willing to pay nearly £13,000 to berth my example above of a 12m x 3.05m boat? Even London prices do not support this - as shown objectively by the PLA Consultation I quoted above. So the marina ends up 70% occupied, which is roughly BWML's average across their marinas - is it good business to alienate all your customers, destroy a functioning and supportive community with strong local links and jobs/businesses, only to realise in a couple of years that you're making less money than previously, and destroyed the 'National Trust of the Waterways' brand in the process ?

 

BWML IS different to other marinas - it was handed a nationally-owned asset to play with, but still can't make a decent profit because it is badly managed, wasteful and inefficient, and is supposedly bound by a complaints procedure. It's different because it's a wholly-owned subsidiary of C&RT - even if it's a commercial arm of the charity, it has to conform to the charitable aims and uphold the brand's good name.

 

No it isnt

[GUMPY]

 

There ARE no other marina's to move to for some of these boats. And moving out of the area would mean people lost their livelihood.

It isn't right that anyone can change their T&C's to suit their mood - that alone is worth fighting for!

This was done to death under the last government when harmonisation between RM and Tenancies on land was proposed, however even that would not make it secure.

You just have to accept that moorings have no security of tenure, fight as much as you like it won't change.

Interestingly some moorings are sold with 25year terms these usually do have security of tenure.