CRT Stoppage notices

[Keeping Up]

I've just received another email stoppage notice from CRT, this time about the Oxford Canal from "location 042" to "Lock 46, Isis Lock".

 

I can understand the reference to Isis Lock, but WTF is location 042 ? I'm guessing that location 042 is Lower Shuckburgh as the web link is "http://canalrivertrust.org.uk/notice/475/oxford-canal-lower-shuckburgh-to-oxford" but I shouldn't have to look at the link to find out should I?

 

Many stoppage notices seem to refer to their location by just a number and nothing more, but I can't see any way of finding out where they are. Can anyone offer an explanation (I'll ask CRT but I doubt that I'll get a sensible reply)

Edited February 7, 2014 by Keeping Up

[alan_fincher]

No, this does seem to be another thing they have made worse rather than better.

 

I also think they can do better than "asset failure" or "infrastructure update".

 

For some new style alerts I have seen, it is not even obvious which canal or navigation they refer to.

 

I suppose it is possible "Location 042" in some way relates to those SAP Asset Codes that BW/CRT seem to use to identify locations, (as well as much else). Could we be talking about a 42 Km offset from wherever they start numbering those from?

 

EDIT:

 

Just checked, and it looks like Northern/Southern Oxford all "numbers" from Hawkesbury down to Isis, and on that basis "OX-042" is I think somewhere on the Braunston to Napton stretch, so OX-042, may well equate to "Location 042", and hence may well be Lower Shuckburgh, if that is about 42 kms from Sutton Stop.

Bonkers though - how many canal users are going to make that association, even if I may just have done so?

Edited February 7, 2014 by alan_fincher

[nicknorman]

Yes it is all very "modern-bullshit-speak" unfortunately. Presumably the text is constructed from someone entering data into drop down list boxes. This is a good thing in that it provides for consistency, but a bad thing if the populating terms are BS!

 

The state of the Oxford looks a bit worrying at the moment, I wouldn't like to have a boat on a towpath mooring around Banbury!

[matty40s]

The North Oxford above Hillmorton is 8" up on yesterdays level, almost topping piling. I awoke with my boat listing the wrong way for the first time in years!! (Had a pump out yesterday)

[john6767]

Yes it is all very "modern-bullshit-speak" unfortunately. Presumably the text is constructed from someone entering data into drop down list boxes. This is a good thing in that it provides for consistency, but a bad thing if the populating terms are BS!

 

The state of the Oxford looks a bit worrying at the moment, I wouldn't like to have a boat on a towpath mooring around Banbury!

I suspect the issue it that it is just an automated system and is using the "name" from the database which is not really human readable. Working in software I empathise with this problems, but really the needs a "description" field for the assets that gives a more human readable name to it, and use that in the automated systems.

 

I have also complained to them about what they do on twitter with the stoppages, that is automated from the stoppage notice and just seems to take the title of the stoppage notice. So for example if the is a closure at say Braunston, the tweet would say something along the lines for "Braunston Bottom Lock closed UFN", and then when it is opened is will say exactly the same thing again, as what happen on the stoppage notice is an update to the original not a new one, and the full notice will say "update: navigation is now open", but the twitter feed misses this totally.

 

It seems they have quite a few poorly thought out externally facing IT systems, which I am quite surprised that they have gone live with in their correct form. The interactive maps replacing the boaters guide (another thread) is another example.

[nicknorman]

Yes I quite agree - the notices informing of re-opening are confusing when the title says "closed", whether on twitter (I don't twit) or just on their email system.

[Mick and Maggie]

 

It seems they have quite a few poorly thought out externally facing IT systems, which I am quite surprised that they have gone live with in their correct form. The interactive maps replacing the boaters guide (another thread) is another example.

 

I understand that CaRT use SAP - which is a short version of 'System Application and Products', creating a centralised database for all applications that are used within an organisation. Maybe there is a clue in the name - after all SAP is a common American witticism for a fool.

[Keeping Up]

The notices on the website also show a "location map" which is never anything more than a blank grey square. Very helpful - not!

 

I've emailed CRT but I expect that their reply (if any) will be only machine-readable

[alan_fincher]

I understand that CRT use SAP - which is a short version of 'System Application and Products'

 

But only because the translation of the German name(s) happens to still work in English.

 

Strictly, SAP actually derives from original German company name, which subsequently changed, but retaining the same acronym.

 

In June 1972 they founded Systemanalyse und Programmentwicklung ("System Analysis and Program Development") as a private partnership under the German Civil Code. The acronym was later changed to stand for Systeme, Anwendungen und Produkte in der Datenverarbeitung ("Systems, Applications and Products in Data Processing").

 

It is unlikely though that stoppage notifications are in any way using the SAP software itself, but they do seem to be basing stuff on CRT asset codes which get stored in SAP. The failure to produce sensible output in the stoppage system is likely to be the fault of CRT and/or developers of an add on system, rather than of the SAP packages.

 

SAP software has always seemed like a horrible monster to me, but, even so,probably can't be blamed for this!

 

 

[Richard Fairhurst]

042 is part of the "Functional Location" that BW/CRT use, as part of SAP, for their asset management. Every CRT-owned asset (lock, bridge, whatever) has a code like OX-042-001, where OX is the Oxford Canal, 042 is the number of kilometres from the start, and 001 is the number within that kilometre (not necessarily sequential).

 

You'll also find these on licence 'discs' to say where your home mooring is.

[Keeping Up]

Thanks for the explanation Richard. It's ludicrous that they expect us boaters to understand what location they are referring to.

[paulmorgan]

I've posted this response from Sarina in Customer Services at Canal & River Trust. I hope it clarifies some queries expressed in this thread.

 

Hello Alan,

A colleague of mine alerted me to your thread on Canalworld discussion forum today about our notices site. I hope you don’t mind me writing to you directly but it’s something I’ve been personally involved in so I’m naturally quite passionate about it!

 

You’re all right, the detail in bold at the top of the notice e-mail alert is automated text. It’s extracted from the location data that the waterway team enters when they create the notice.

 

The “Location 42” related to the ‘functional location’ (FL) information for the start and end points of the stoppage. It’s not exciting, or particularly technical, but essentially every km length, bridge, lock, culvert, weir, sanitary station etc. has an associated FL.

 

As you rightly deduced, each FL is written in the following way AA-012-345. AA will be a unique reference for each waterway, 012 relates to the relevant km of that waterway and 345 will define the structure or ‘asset’ within that km. The reason it displayed in this particular notice is because of that very annoying thing none of us can completely eliminate…human error. Instead of choosing a specific location on the 42^nd km length of the Oxford canal, they chose the whole km. To prevent this happening again we (actually, not me, but colleagues who are more IT literate) are in the process of stopping this being possible.

 

Having now spoken to the South East office I understand that they’re currently under extreme pressure. They have numerous incidents of flooding across their waterways and simply wanted to make sure that you were all provided with some warning and information about the present situation in this area. I hope you’ll agree that the content of the notice is clear and helpful.

 

All that aside, you were right to voice your annoyance. “Oxford Canal – 042” is meaningless, irrelevant and potentially confusing information for you and I’m sorry that it slipped past us and out into general circulation.

 

I also see that “john6767” mentions the difficulties we’ve experienced in offering a twitter feed of these notices. Being limited to only 140 characters whilst also including a link to the actual notice is the biggest limiting factor in being able to provide something immediately understandable. Since releasing the notices site and the Twitter feed I’d say that we’ve tweaked the Twitter feed so many times that I’ve lost count! We’ve fine-tuned them now to include:

1. whether the notice is new or an update
2. the date(s) the notice applies
3. the navigation
4. the nature of the notice (i.e. Navigation restriction/navigation closure/Advice/Towpath Closure etc.)

That’s pretty much all we can squeeze onto these Tweets.

Some of the changes we’ve made have happened quite recently so I’d be really grateful (if he’s interested) if “john6767” would have a look at the Twitter feed and let me know what he thinks?

 

I also see that “nicknorman” has realised that some of the Tweets which we’re, in fact, updates to tell you that a closed navigation was now open still displayed ‘navigation closed’ in the Tweet. We spotted this too some time ago. To stop this from happening I’ve asked all my colleagues in the waterways to also update the notice type. It’s something different for them to do and most people are remembering but there’s still the possibility for error. If any of you spot them then you can let me know (@CRTSarina) and I’ll send a reminder round.

 

In fact, We’d be really grateful for all your feedback on any part of the new notices system. If you’d like to send it to me (Sarina.young@canalrivertrust.org.uk), I’ll share it with my colleagues and we’ll see what we can do.

It’s new and there are still some changes that we’re making to it (even as I write this e-mail) but we are keen to get it right – so please don’t feel as though you’d be wasting your time.

 

Kindest regards,

Sarina Young
Customer Service Co-Ordinator

[john6767]

I have looked at today notices in twitter, and the first thing I was surprised at was that @CRTNotices has only 166 followers, so presumably not may people think this is worthwhile and I am a bit alone here so perhaps it is not bit deal that the twitter feed to not great.

 

Anyway today's are not that easy to judge by as there are all notices that were originally closures, and predictably there are for updates that are closures. So it is hard to say if that addresses the issue that where the original notice was a closure and the update is reopening, if the tweet would actually say that or just say that it was an update to the closure (if you see what I mean).

 

Also I note the the date given is the date of the original notice, so unless you go to the notice on the web site you don't really see what the tweet is indicating other than it is an update of some sort. What I would like to see in the tweet if the update was to end that notice o closure/restriction etc

[Grace and Favour]

The North Oxford above Hillmorton is 8" up on yesterdays level, almost topping piling. I awoke with my boat listing the wrong way for the first time in years!! (Had a pump out yesterday)

Stomach pump out?????

 

 

 

( )

[Mike Todd]

I've posted this response from Sarina in Customer Services at Canal & River Trust. I hope it clarifies some queries expressed in this thread.

 

Hello Alan,

A colleague of mine alerted me to your thread on Canalworld discussion forum today about our notices site. I hope you don’t mind me writing to you directly but it’s something I’ve been personally involved in so I’m naturally quite passionate about it!

 

You’re all right, the detail in bold at the top of the notice e-mail alert is automated text. It’s extracted from the location data that the waterway team enters when they create the notice.

 

The “Location 42” related to the ‘functional location’ (FL) information for the start and end points of the stoppage. It’s not exciting, or particularly technical, but essentially every km length, bridge, lock, culvert, weir, sanitary station etc. has an associated FL.

 

As you rightly deduced, each FL is written in the following way AA-012-345. AA will be a unique reference for each waterway, 012 relates to the relevant km of that waterway and 345 will define the structure or ‘asset’ within that km. The reason it displayed in this particular notice is because of that very annoying thing none of us can completely eliminate…human error. Instead of choosing a specific location on the 42^nd km length of the Oxford canal, they chose the whole km. To prevent this happening again we (actually, not me, but colleagues who are more IT literate) are in the process of stopping this being possible.

 

Having now spoken to the South East office I understand that they’re currently under extreme pressure. They have numerous incidents of flooding across their waterways and simply wanted to make sure that you were all provided with some warning and information about the present situation in this area. I hope you’ll agree that the content of the notice is clear and helpful.

 

All that aside, you were right to voice your annoyance. “Oxford Canal – 042” is meaningless, irrelevant and potentially confusing information for you and I’m sorry that it slipped past us and out into general circulation.

 

I also see that “john6767” mentions the difficulties we’ve experienced in offering a twitter feed of these notices. Being limited to only 140 characters whilst also including a link to the actual notice is the biggest limiting factor in being able to provide something immediately understandable. Since releasing the notices site and the Twitter feed I’d say that we’ve tweaked the Twitter feed so many times that I’ve lost count! We’ve fine-tuned them now to include:

1. whether the notice is new or an update
2. the date(s) the notice applies
3. the navigation
4. the nature of the notice (i.e. Navigation restriction/navigation closure/Advice/Towpath Closure etc.)

That’s pretty much all we can squeeze onto these Tweets.

Some of the changes we’ve made have happened quite recently so I’d be really grateful (if he’s interested) if “john6767” would have a look at the Twitter feed and let me know what he thinks?

 

I also see that “nicknorman” has realised that some of the Tweets which we’re, in fact, updates to tell you that a closed navigation was now open still displayed ‘navigation closed’ in the Tweet. We spotted this too some time ago. To stop this from happening I’ve asked all my colleagues in the waterways to also update the notice type. It’s something different for them to do and most people are remembering but there’s still the possibility for error. If any of you spot them then you can let me know (@CRTSarina) and I’ll send a reminder round.

 

In fact, We’d be really grateful for all your feedback on any part of the new notices system. If you’d like to send it to me (Sarina.young@canalrivertrust.org.uk), I’ll share it with my colleagues and we’ll see what we can do.

It’s new and there are still some changes that we’re making to it (even as I write this e-mail) but we are keen to get it right – so please don’t feel as though you’d be wasting your time.

 

Kindest regards,

Sarina Young

Customer Service Co-Ordinator

Sarina should be thanked for taking the time and effort to explain at such length - interesting as well!

[Keeping Up]

I've posted this response from Sarina in Customer Services at Canal & River Trust. I hope it clarifies some queries expressed in this thread.

 

Hello Alan, ...

 

Good to hear a clear and positive response from Sarina.

 

Can I rely on you to get all my emails from now on?

[Tuscan]

See Marsworth to Grove lock closed and understand several local roads are now flooded,

 

Looks like Alan is the the natural focal point of CRTs notifications so I will be glued to his future posts ......beng serious for a moment I assume CRT have their hands full and I thank them for their efforts.

[alan_fincher]

Yes, I think we would all like to thank Sarina for the detailed response, and Paul Morgan for posting it here.

 

I've been out boating today, but have now sent Sarina the following......

 

Sarina,

 

Thanks for this, which I have only just seen. (I have been out boating today on a bit of the Grand Union that is usable between some of the bits closed due to water levels!).

 

I see Paul Morgan has posted the text of this email on to the Canal World thread, and that is already generating some interest.

 

Thank you for the detailed reply, I will post again into that thread, and emphasise that you are happy for people to pass their comments to you – it sounds like some are already bearing fruit in producing some improvements to the system.

 

Best wishes,

 

Alan

 

 

As Sarina has indicated she is prepared to field emails sent to her on this topic, and pass them on to others as she deems appropriate, can I ask that we in turn take the time to send in anything that will genuinely help improve the quality and consistency of the information we receive .

But well done Sarina, and well done CRT!

That Email again.......

 

Sarina.young@canalrivertrust.org.uk

[Keeping Up]

Indeed. I have also sent an email of thanks to Sarina for her prompt and positive response.

[Dalesman]

Think this one is better written out.

From Date:

17th February 2014

To Date:

4th April 2014 at 23:59 inclusive

Type:

Navigation Closure

Reason:

Repair

Description:

Due to a leakage on the embankment at Hampton Bank there is a risk of a possible breach and therefore emergency works are required. Contractors will commence works on site on Monday 17th February to install piling on this section of canal.

The canal and towpath between Hampton Bank Bridge 50 and Knowles Bridge 49 will be closed from Monday 17th February until Friday 4th April 2014.

Location(s):

Llangollen Canal

Starts At:

Bridge 49, Knowles Bridge

Ends At:

Bridge 50, Hampton Bank Bridge

Up Stream Winding Hole:

Hampton Bank Bridge

Down Stream Winding Hole:

Prees Branch Junction

[casper ghost]

 

Think this one is better written out.

From Date:

17th February 2014

To Date:

4th April 2014 at 23:59 inclusive

Type:

Navigation Closure

Reason:

Repair

The people doing this repair work have said that, in their view, there is little chance the repair will be done in time as they have found more problems to sort out.