Battening out

[stuart]

Hi all.

 

New shell arrival is due for the weekend - yippeee!

 

Now the fun begins with the fitout.

 

I've been asking around for ideas with regard to battening out the internal shell.

 

The shell is a Liv. boats one and the hull has 2" angle to attach wood to, the cabin sides are flat without the angle.

 

My thoughts (and these are common with most new builds I've seen) is to attach 25mm x 70mm wooden battens to the angle on the hull using holes drilled through the angle and "no more nails" type glue.

 

Then attach small batterns to the top of these to cover the top of the hull (the bit where the hull and cabin sides start) - this should over hang to provide a lip for a battern to be put on the top for the cabin sides - which I'm just planning on glueing to the roof/cabin.

 

I'll also take the screws out the windows and batten behind these to provide an alternative to 'all' glue!

 

Whats your ideas?

[Richard Bustens]

Hi

On the hull sides i ran 3 lengths from front to back one just under the gunwale one at the bottom and one mid way between, but i used 4 x 1 for this .

 

on the top sides i have vertical ribs and fastened 2 x 1 to these and also the ribs that go across the roof both of these are spaced at 22'' centres.

 

I was asking the builder as the w/end how they would fasten if no stringers as i had heard some builders do not bother with them and he said you usually just drill and fasten with self tappers then grind off the bit sticking through.

Edited January 24, 2005 by Richard Bustens

[stuart]

Hi

On the hull sides i ran 3 lengths from front to back one just under the gunwale one at the bottom and one mid way between, but i used 4 x 1 for this .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I did think about doing this but didnt want to loose the extra 2" of space inside the cabin width taken up by the wooden strips.

 

Did you drill and screw to the angle on the hull?

 

If anyones interested heres some pictures.... http://www.photobox.co.uk/album/1087009

Edited January 24, 2005 by stuart

[Richard Bustens]

Ill try and post some pics tomorow but i can not seem to get them to go on

i can get them in the galery but for some reason i haveexceeded my limit again

[john b.]

Good luck with your biuld I too am considering a sailaway from Liverpool Boats so will follow your progress with interest.

 

John.

[John Orentas]

Hi Stuart

 

I am not wild about using adhesive to secure the battening, it has to hold firm for a few decades and the steel will inevitably suffer from some light rusting, at least use a few self taping screws 'as well as'.

 

Half inch thick battens are sufficient for the hull sides, remember you are losing boat width all the time.

 

It is surprising how few fasteners you need on the cabin sides, many of the top class builders of years gone by did not give you any. You can effectively build a sturdy structure of framing or batten, hardly fixed at all. Again 1/2 inch thick is enough.

 

* Did someone say drill though the cabin side and then grind off the screws outside. Yuuk !

 

Couple of tips;

 

1. Treat all battening with Waxoyl after you have fixed it.

 

2. The deck-head (roof) frames need to have a nice curve on them, do this at home. Build a jig with the same curve (or a bit more as they will straighten out a bit) build them up from three 8mm thick strips, they will take the bend quite easily, glue them all together and clamp them to the jig (you do have lots of clamps don't you?). In this way you can make one a day.

[Richard Bustens]

* Did someone say drill though the cabin side and then grind off the screws outside. Yuuk !

 

 

Hi John

Well how else can u fasten them then? if there is no other place to fix.

Edited January 25, 2005 by Richard Bustens

[stuart]

I was wondering that myself!

[John Orentas]

We should be getting used to Richards sense of humour by now !

[DHutch]

Well how else can u fasten them then? if there is no other place to fix.

 

- get some angle iron weld on ASAP!

[Richard Bustens]

No for once that was a serious comment, that is the way you do it look at a boat from a builder you know does not put strengtheners on the sides and you will see the little dimples where it has been done like that.

How do you fasten the wood to the back and side doors, like a hull that has been built without angle iron strips you drill and self tapper the bits to it .

Unless you know different there is no other way.

[John Orentas]

Hi Richard

 

No other way, good grief.

 

Drill and countersink for 5mm screws, but put nuts behind the door, you can then use filler on the outside to cover the screw heads and make them invisible. Or why not use adhesive to fix battens, even if they fall off after 5 years and you have to re-fix them.

 

Self tappers will be visible for the life of the boat, no matter how carefully you grind them off, they will also rust from the inside, a nightmare.

 

On the cabin sides, fix battens to the deck-head battens and you can always find a bit of spare metal to fix around the gunnel area, also utilise the window fixings.

 

Glue battens on if you have to, anything is better than what you propose.

 

Sorry to be so blunt.

[ChrisPy]

and there's no reason why steel should rust under the fast grab adhesive that fixes the battens. But just in case, and if you have the chance, DO lightly grind off the factory millscale (the shiny dark grey stuff) with just the edge of an angle grinder so you are down to the real metal where the adhesive will stick.

 

I see this started with Scouseboat sailaways, same as mine. I am paying them for urethane foam and battening. It should include timber battens on the cabin sides, including window and porthole framing. I hope I get what I pay for. Delivery is now agreed for about 22 Feb so I'll let you know.

[Richard Bustens]

Hi John i was not proposing that i was saying that that is what happens..

Usually the boats built with no reinforcer's can be recognised by the cabin sides and top having a rounded look and more pronounced role to the roof and if you look carefully you often see the little dimples where the screws have cracked the paint.

[John Orentas]

Hi Richard.

 

The top quality builders years ago went to great lengths to achieve near perfect cabin sides, many went to the extent of buying 'full length' sheets for the cabin sides to avoid joining them and they fitted the minimum of framing, sometimes none at all the the cabin sides, even the best welding will show through the paintwork, I've forgotten the names of many of the builders, many have disappeared, but I remember lusting after a Sagar boat.

 

The roof was never considered so important a good deal of framing was included, after all it has to take the weight of a person at times. This is why we should not gloss paint the roof, nothing looks worse. A roof can look quite good in mat primer, gloss paint it and it looks like a ploughed field.

 

But back to the point, there are other ways of supporting the lining, just fixing top and bottom only is the obvious. If there are fitters out there using the method you describe, they should be stood up against a wall and shot.

[stuart]

Another heated debate as usual!

 

How come I always ask the questions that fire up so much debate !! Just look at my previous posts! :-)

[Gary Peacock]

Hi

This might be just me, but if I was buying a hull I would expect the builder to make provision for attaching the lining and give guidance on how to do it.

Maybe it's done different over the hill in Liverpool!

 

 

Gary

[John Orentas]

Hi Stuart.

 

Well some people are just like that, they can start a fight in an empty house, so don't blame yourself too much.

 

Gary. I don't know about Liverpool either, but some builders know very little about what happens to their shells after they have gone. I think some may be a bit upset however, if they thought they would be 'Animaled' in the way Richard described.

[stuart]

Hi

This might be just me, but if I was buying a hull I would expect the builder to make provision for attaching the lining and give guidance on how to do it.

Maybe it's done different over the hill in Liverpool!

Gary

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

They do give you guidance. I had a look at the weekend at one they are lining to see how its all done.

 

Generally its lots of glue "pink grip" if I remember, and basically designing the battens in a manner that transfers all the weight down through the battens to the hull level.

 

I didnt see exactly how the roof was done as this was already covered. I dont think there was a "mold" as John O suggested - but they did use a 6" centre channel down the roof line and perhaps its easier to curve 6mm ply against this?

[John Orentas]

They do give you guidance. I had a look at the weekend at one they are lining to see how its all done.

 

 

The JIG was my idea, I have never seen anyone else do it that way. The more usual method is to use 3/4" batten and cut half way through ever inch or so to make it bendy. Always looked a bit agricultural to me.

 

I don't like "pink grip" stuff. Will it grip for 30 years or more, or just until the cheque has cleared ?

[Richard Bustens]

If there are no ribs to fasten to on cab sides and roof, which is common with some builders, i see no other way to fix them my shell has both ribs on roof and sides spaced at 22'' and i know how much presure it took to bend the timber across the roof ones to get it to the shape of the roof.

 

With liverpool boats( i think) they use a 1'' x 1'' box on the roof and 1'' x 1'' x 5mm angle on the hull with nothing on the cabin sides and only 4mm plating, now you could trap it between the roof ribs and the cabin sides but i can not see how you can fasten the bottom in place. so it is common practice to drill and fasten through the cabin sides as i discribed.

[stuart]

If there are no ribs to fasten to on cab sides and roof, which is common with some builders, i see no other way to fix them my shell has both ribs on roof and sides spaced at 22'' and i know how much presure it took to bend the timber across the roof ones to get it to the shape of the roof.

 

With liverpool boats( i think) they use a 1'' x 1'' box on the roof and  1'' x 1'' x  5mm angle on the hull with nothing on the cabin sides and only 4mm plating, now you could trap it between the roof ribs and the cabin sides but i can not see how you can fasten the bottom in place. so it is common practice to drill and fasten through the cabin sides as i discribed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Although the roof wasnt on the hull when I visited the angle on the hull was 2" but you are correct about the 4mm cabin sides.

[John Orentas]

Richard.

 

Is there not a bit of the horizontal gunnel protruding below the cabin side, drill through that and use a simple little bracket. In a similar way at the top a simple bracket from the deck-head beams to the vertical batten.

 

Surely the "Knees" on a Liverpool boat are 2" x 2" angle. They used to use 1.25" x 0.25" flats, rolled to a curve edgewise under the deck-head but that may have changed. I think the cabin sides are 3mm plate.

 

"Common practise" ! When I was building, penetrating the shell would be considered to be out of the question. I wouldn't even fit a radio aerial to the roof.

[Richard Bustens]

http://www.liverpoolboatco.co.uk/id11.html

 

See this John

 

I thought that the knees was the bits on the base plate?

 

And this

 

http://www.nb.isabella.btinternet.co.uk/construction.htm

 

I can not see where it can be fasened.

[stuart]

Dont forget that that shell was built in 1999 - 6 years go, so specs and styles will have changed a little.

 

Theres some pictures that I took last week from L.B. here....

http://www.photobox.co.uk/album/1087009

Edited January 26, 2005 by stuart