On board generators

[pearley]

Am in process of having a boat built and intend to become CCers. It will be gas free. Originally we intended to use the Wallas diesel hob and oven but, my wife being a serious cook, have decided that the oven is too small so will have a single oven - 2400w - and a 2 ring ceramic hob - 2700w. To power this will need a built-in diesel powered generator. Have been looking at Mastervolt and Vetus 6 kva units.

 

Has anyone got experience of either of these? They are available in 1500rpm and 3000rpm mode. I assume that 1500rpm will be quieter and last longer.

 

Using generator plus 3000w inverter willallow us to have a 240v fridge/freezer rather than expensive 12v unit. Any problems with inverter being on all time other than draw on batteries?

 

Peter Earley

[Guest]

Am in process of having a boat built and intend to become CCers. It will be gas free. Originally we intended to use the Wallas diesel hob and oven but, my wife being a serious cook, have decided that the oven is too small so will have a single oven - 2400w - and a 2 ring ceramic hob - 2700w. To power this will need a built-in diesel powered generator. Have been looking at Mastervolt and Vetus 6 kva units.

 

Has anyone got experience of either of these? They are available in 1500rpm and 3000rpm mode. I assume that 1500rpm will be quieter and last longer.

 

Using generator plus 3000w inverter willallow us to have a 240v fridge/freezer rather than expensive 12v unit. Any problems with inverter being on all time other than draw on batteries?

 

Peter Earley

Sorry I know nothing about the gennies. The 240V fridge/freezer on an inverter idea: We do that, and yes the drain on the batteries is quite high. Also the inverter fan kicking in and out can be annoying in the night. Our inverter is a Sterling 3Kw, and the fan tends to be noisy. It is a personal thing, but given my time again, and in the absence of shore power, I would have paid the extra for the 12V conversion on the same fridge/freezer.

Edited November 28, 2006 by Guest

[miles beyond]

Am in process of having a boat built and intend to become CCers. It will be gas free. Originally we intended to use the Wallas diesel hob and oven but, my wife being a serious cook, have decided that the oven is too small so will have a single oven - 2400w - and a 2 ring ceramic hob - 2700w. To power this will need a built-in diesel powered generator. Have been looking at Mastervolt and Vetus 6 kva units.

 

Has anyone got experience of either of these? They are available in 1500rpm and 3000rpm mode. I assume that 1500rpm will be quieter and last longer.

 

Using generator plus 3000w inverter willallow us to have a 240v fridge/freezer rather than expensive 12v unit. Any problems with inverter being on all time other than draw on batteries?

 

Peter Earley

 

My advice would be don't go this route at all. 240v cooking means you can't cook after 8pm - it is against BW bylaws to run a generator after that time, and before 8am as well. However quiet you may believe these units to be, the noise travels through water and pther moorers may (quite rightly) request that you turn it off. The generator will need servicing on a regular basis bumping up maintenace costs, which a gas bottle does not, and gas cooking is far better than electric as any chef will testify - you won't see Gordon Ramsay messing about with a ceramic hob.

 

And a freezer is a massive drain on the batteries. You are far better off buying fresh food, and it is much tastier and more nutritious. 240v will almost certainly drain more than 12v. How are you going to charge this necessarily huje battery bank thoroughly unless you remain on a landline much of the time?. Given that you should not charge batteries at a rate exceeding 20% of their amp hour capacity you will be running the engine or generator for hours and hours.

 

A boat is not a house, and I would strongly recommend that you approach it that way, recognise that it is a different way of living and adjust accordingly.

 

You should also consider resale value - 240v cooking gas free boats are not very popular.

[GUMPY]

have a look at these they come well recomended.

 

http://www.energy-solutions.co.uk/nl-generators.html

 

1500rpm and quite quiet

[dor]

Why do you want a gas-free boat? Most people who want to go this route have an idea that gas on a boat is a bomb waiting to explode. However, providing you keep bodgers clear of anything to do with gas, it is a safe as anything else. We don't worry about gas coming into our houses do we?

 

If you have concerns, then there are several gas monitors available, some of which will monitor carbon monoxide as well, although they should be sited in different places. And I think solid fuel stoves are a much greater potential risk when it comes to CO than gas.

Edited November 28, 2006 by dor

[Alastair]

seconding dor here.

 

The gas appliances (water heaters, cookers) on my boats are the items that never give any trouble ever. Electrics are a constant source of worry.

You can't beat a gas hob for cooking (well, maybe an Aga).

 

Turning on a large IC engine just to boil a kettle - so inefficient.

 

We have a commercial-sized cooker on the sailing barge, and find that a 13kg propane bottle lasts well over a month. Fitting gas pipe is easy. Put a bubble tester in, a gas monitor, a CO monitor and you'll still be £100's better off than if you go the generator route.

[Guest]

It's a hard call really. After reading some of the posts on here re. hull bonding and G.I's I am considering an all gas boat personally. I jest of course, but I agree with DOR that if everything is kept in order, there is no huge risk with propane.

[bottle]

Hi Peter

 

Welcome to the forum, Those that have gas will say it's best those that have all electric will say that is best.

 

It is your own choice, My choice and my builders is all electric, the hob will be an induction type (as controllable as gas), the only thing is your pots and pans must be iron/steel.

 

I will be having an Onan generator of about 7/9Kw.

 

The set up will be the same as yours, 240v fridge,240v freezer, fan oven and induction hob.

 

Edit: I forgot the washer dryer.

Edited November 28, 2006 by bottle

[miles beyond]

It's a hard call really. After reading some of the posts on here re. hull bonding and G.I's I am considering an all gas boat personally. I jest of course, but I agree with DOR that if everything is kept in order, there is no huge risk with propane.

 

I like itjava script:emoticon('',%20'smid_4'). I once had an old broads cruiser which had one battery, a paraffin cooker and oil lamps. I won't deny that to live on a boat these days I want more than that but it is so worth keeping everything reasonably simple - a point I note that Beryl (RBOA Chair) makes strongly in her editorial in the latest RBOA mag.

 

If I were to have a new boat now from scratch I would certainly have a gas fridge (room sealed units are pricey but anything to reduce the dependency on batteries and recharging times) and a gas instant water heater (Morco now do a room-sealed version of this) - hot water when you want it without having to run the engine. And apparently Alde are bringing out a compact gas central heating boiler in March 07 which is 40% more efficient than their slimline units making it far more competitive with diesel units - most of which make a horrible racket rather like being in proximity with an airport.

[Guest]

I like itjava script:emoticon('',%20'smid_4'). I once had an old broads cruiser which had one battery, a paraffin cooker and oil lamps. I won't deny that to live on a boat these days I want more than that but it is so worth keeping everything reasonably simple - a point I note that Beryl (RBOA Chair) makes strongly in her editorial in the latest RBOA mag.

 

If I were to have a new boat now from scratch I would certainly have a gas fridge (room sealed units are pricey but anything to reduce the dependency on batteries and recharging times) and a gas instant water heater (Morco now do a room-sealed version of this) - hot water when you want it without having to run the engine. And apparently Alde are bringing out a compact gas central heating boiler in March 07 which is 40% more efficient than their slimline units making it far more competitive with diesel units - most of which make a horrible racket rather like being in proximity with an airport.

I agree about the Morco. Our last boat had one, and I miss it badly on this one. I will fit one when we get around to living on board.

[Collectors]

Hi,

If you was worried about the gas side of things & you’re at the build stage. For the sake of some extra cabling, you could fit an burglar alarm panel that will give you the facilities of not only an alarm for the boat, but descent gas & smoke detectors can be fitted to the system with a simple relay that will shut of a 12volt gas valve if the gas alarm is activated. This can be set up in one or two ways, in that if you set the alarm when you go out, the gas valve will auto turn off or just shut off when a gas detector trips the alarm system. This will work 24 hours a day, even when your not there. You can set up loads of things on a boat via the alarm panel to monitor & do many automated things, & if you want, even send you a text message to keep you informed.

It may sound over the top, but will be far, far cheaper than setting up for the amount of electric you want to use, plus with lower running costs.

I personally think with the very high amperage that that is dealt with on boats using batteries; it’s a 50-50 toss up on which is worst of two evils, & don’t think gas is any more dangerous than electric if either one is fitted properly.

Also you may not be to popular if you have to start the geny up late in the evening for a bit of supper, as you wont find a quite & cheap 6kva generator. Above 3kw seems to be the point where generators seem to start razing the DB level.

 

Good luck

 

Chris.

PS. The generator can always have a gas conversion?

[david and julie]

Am in process of having a boat built and intend to become CCers. It will be gas free. Originally we intended to use the Wallas diesel hob and oven but, my wife being a serious cook, have decided that the oven is too small so will have a single oven - 2400w - and a 2 ring ceramic hob - 2700w. To power this will need a built-in diesel powered generator. Have been looking at Mastervolt and Vetus 6 kva units.

Is a 6Kva generator really big enough for what you have in mind? I'm not expert but some appliances need more power for initial start up, also bear in mind Kw & Kva are not quite the same and that many quoted outputs are also not continuous.

 

I would of thought you would need more like 9kva so that you can charge your batteries and cook at the same time. Moreso if using an AC fridge/freezer etc.

 

1500rpm generators are better-the downsides being they are dearer,bigger and heavier-have you got the room for one?

 

Also consider the current fuel issues and at the very least have twin tanks fitted. In your case having a bigger one for the red may allow direct deliveries.

 

Just curious have you ever listened to a generator droning away on a boat for hours on end?

 

If your live near Cheshire/Manchester you are welcome to come and listen to ours first, to see if you think you could live with it, before commiting yourselves.

 

I agree with most of the others and would also give this route a lot of consideration.

Edited November 28, 2006 by david and julie

[blackrose]

Haven't read all the earlier posts, but I'd just like to say that if you're CCing and have decided to go the gas-free route, then it might be wise to think about the dual funtionality of a drip fed diesel heater (not fed by a 12v pump) which you can also use for cooking. I have no idea of brands but I'm sure there are some of both around. Of course this may not be all that advantageous in summer, but I think you'll be doing an awful lot of generating/charging if you're doing lots of cooking on electric without a shoreline.

[pearley]

Thanks for all the replies. Have been cruising for a great number of years so havn't gone into this lightly. Whilst I accept that gas is as safe as in a house, it is a fact that there around 3 accidents a year due to gas escape but also, as a 65 year old with a bad back, I don't want to be humping 20 kilo gas cylinders around.

 

I know I can't use a generator after 8pm. I don't see this as a problem, if we arrive back that late we'll get fish and chips.

 

Have already asked for second diesel tank.

 

Yes, we have looked at the other diesel cooking options but they are too ugly to contemplate. I wouldn't have an Aga.Too many bad experiences when I was a boy, looking after my parents one.

 

Regards

Pete Earley

[miles beyond]

Thanks for all the replies. Have been cruising for a great number of years so havn't gone into this lightly. Whilst I accept that gas is as safe as in a house, it is a fact that there around 3 accidents a year due to gas escape but also, as a 65 year old with a bad back, I don't want to be humping 20 kilo gas cylinders around.

 

I know I can't use a generator after 8pm. I don't see this as a problem, if we arrive back that late we'll get fish and chips.

 

Have already asked for second diesel tank.

 

Yes, we have looked at the other diesel cooking options but they are too ugly to contemplate. I wouldn't have an Aga.Too many bad experiences when I was a boy, looking after my parents one.

 

Regards

Pete Earley

 

Well, lots of luck with it all then.

 

A comment on the second diesel tank - it seems highly unlikely should the red diesel derogation come to an end that marinas will go to the massive expens of installing a second tank, while delivery will be almost impossible as the minimum quantity is usually 500 litres.

 

If you pop into a marina and ask for gas I'm sure most would give you a hand to load it into place.

[Yoda]

I don't remember that BW said that you could not run an on-board generator after 8pm. You are not allowed to run the main engine whilst stationary after 8pm surely?

[miles beyond]

I don't remember that BW said that you could not run an on-board generator after 8pm. You are not allowed to run the main engine whilst stationary after 8pm surely?

 

Both are verboten!

[John Orentas]

Hi Pete.

 

"I know I can't use a generator after 8pm. I don't see this as a problem".

Sensible behaviour but I am sure there is not any kind of regulation covering this.

 

"Have already asked for second diesel tank".

Are you really going to all that expense before the issue has been resolved. Why don't you wait and see what the result is, even if the worst happens it won't be overnight, there will be all kinds of issues to be resolved first.

[GUMPY]

Hi Pete.

 

"I know I can't use a generator after 8pm. I don't see this as a problem".

Sensible behaviour but I am sure there is not any kind of regulation covering this.

 

Yes there is, its part of the BW licence conditions.

 

 

"Have already asked for second diesel tank".

Are you really going to all that expense before the issue has been resolved. Why don't you wait and see what the result is, even if the worst happens it won't be overnight, there will be all kinds of issues to be resolved first.

 

I did mine two years ago, if nothing else it gets me over the 1000liter price break for buying diesel.

[bottle]

4. You must not:

(a) use any electricity generator, including the Boat's engine, at any

British Waterways' mooring between 8pm and 8am, unless you

are moored in isolation, out of earshot of other people. We do not

intend this Condition to stop you moving the Boat from the mooring.

( run the Boat’s engine in gear when it is moored as this can

damage the waterway walls and cause a nuisance to other people.

 

From the licence also 4b is interesting for another thread.

 

 

Edit: oops the b has displayed as a smilie.

Edited November 28, 2006 by bottle

[fretman]

From the licence also 4b is interesting for another thread.

Edit: oops the b has displayed as a smilie.

and what does 4b say then

[bottle]

and what does 4b say then

 

4b is where the smillie has appeared because in the original copy it was displayed as a 'B' and that converts to

 

Just one of those things

[DHutch]

Personaly, i sit with the majority, that gas is the way forwards and that if you are worryed the thing to do is fit detectors and an automatic isolator.

- Certainly dont worry about "humping 20kg of gas"

- My grandad worryed about that too when he built the boat, infact, he actaully bought and installed a small crane to lift them onto the deck.

- But there no need, usally you can get your gas locker with 6ft of the bottle store. And ive never met a marina that hasnt tryed to give me hand lifting it in! (ive tho im 19, and can do it one handed)

 

If you do go down the electric route, i two would defornatly be looking at an induction hob.

- Having been brought up with gas cookers (both at home and on the boat) they are the only electric hobs i can stand!

 

 

Daniel