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Dispute at Pillings


andy the hammer
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QMH (the holding company that actually owns PLM) operated the marina using two subsidiaries QMP and PLM.

 

It leased the whole marina to QMP, which in turn leased moorings (or rather car parking spaces, but that isn't actually as important a distinction as some seem to think). It also leased mooring rights in the remainder of the marina to PLM, and would have had some relationship in relation to service charges etc for the leaseholders.

 

This arrangement means that all the actual wealth remains with the holding company..

Sorry, Dave, but where is the evidence for the structure you suggest, in terms of ownership of the freehold and a lease structure within the group ?

Mr Steadman has a legal charge over the freehold registered with QMP and not QMH. QMP shows a fixed asset of £2.75m in their accounts.

There are more conspiracy theories dotted around in this huge thread, than a month's output of the Daily Express.

IF I've got it right, they haven't done a very good job of ring-fencing the main asset.

I stand to be corrected.

Edited by carpet wallah
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recent post from PL FB

 

CRT have forced all boaters on the marina to have licences even if they never leave the marina. They made out that although we are within private property the water was part of the network. I think this forms a legal contract between boaters and CRT. We have paid for a licence that is effective from the marina mooring where it is enforced. If they close the junction they will be in breach of that contract, or have we been forced to get licences by deception? The marina is struggling and if you accept that the extortionate fees payable to CRT for crossing an imaginary line are justified, then you must accept that your costs for moorings have to rise or the quality of the marina has to suffer. Best way to deal with CRT is with "people power". Support the marina and together a win against closure if within your power. Has anyone any thoughts on boaters obtaining a court injunction preventing CRT blocking access?
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The information seems to be getting 'muddled' somewhat'

 

QMP (Quorn Marina Properties) are shown as having £0 Assets and liabiities of £1,909,000, they have a single Director (since mid 2009) which is Mr Paul Lillie

 

Whilst QMH (Quorn Marina Holdings) have £10 liablities and £795,708 as assets

 

http://companycheck.co.uk/company/06002831/QUORN-MARINA-PROPERTIES-LIMITED/financial-accounts

 

http://companycheck.co.uk/company/06002830/QUORN-MARINA-HOLDINGS-LIMITED/financial-accounts#financials

 

Edit to add the PLM details for completeness

 

http://companycheck.co.uk/company/05850548/PILLINGS-LOCK-MARINA-LTD/financial-accounts

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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recent post from PL FB

 

CRT have forced all boaters on the marina to have licences even if they never leave the marina. They made out that although we are within private property the water was part of the network. I think this forms a legal contract between boaters and CRT. We have paid for a licence that is effective from the marina mooring where it is enforced. If they close the junction they will be in breach of that contract, or have we been forced to get licences by deception? The marina is struggling and if you accept that the extortionate fees payable to CRT for crossing an imaginary line are justified, then you must accept that your costs for moorings have to rise or the quality of the marina has to suffer. Best way to deal with CRT is with "people power". Support the marina and together a win against closure if within your power. Has anyone any thoughts on boaters obtaining a court injunction preventing CRT blocking access?

 

They need to read the email from CRT- issued Friday- Who have stated that licence fees would be refunded when the marina is closed off. CRT are not the bad boys here

Here you go

 

someone posted this communication they had received from CaRT earlier which may be useful

******************

Dear Boat Licence Customer

Following my letter of last week explaining the unfortunate circumstances which have arisen in respect of Pillings Lock Marina, I have heard from a number of you and I would like to thank you for contacting me. I am very appreciative of the understanding of the Trust's position expressed by many of those with whom I have spoken. This second communication is in response to some of the issues that have been raised.

Since sending my letter we have received this week a letter and formal notice of a meeting of creditors confirming that the Directors of Quorn Marina Properties Limited ("QMP") have decided to place the company in Creditors' Voluntary Liquidation. The meeting will take place on 3 February 2014 and a representative of the Trust will be attending. We hope that by attending we will be in a better position to understand the financial difficulties QMP has faced and why it was unable to meet its contractual obligations to the Trust. Until we have attended the meeting we have no way of knowing the intentions of the liquidator and, therefore, what this means for the future of the Marina.

What I can however confirm is that it is not currently the Trust's intention, in light of the latest action by QMP, to alter the timescales for taking action to sever the connection between the Marina and the waterway - that is if the Marina owner does not sever the connection by 12 April 2014 then CRT will take action to do so. We do very much hope however that no such action will be forced upon us.

The issue of boat licences has also been a concern to some and I hope the following provides some clarity on this issue. It was a condition of the Network Access Agreement ("NAA") that QMP ensured that all boats in the Marina held a valid CRT boat licence. Now that we have revoked that agreement, this obligation has fallen away, however, boats that do come out of the Marina are required to hold a valid licence and, clearly, any unlicensed craft using the waterway will be liable to enforcement action in the normal way. We very much hope that we can rely upon your co-operation in this respect.

I am sorry that at present there remains a lot of uncertainty for you but we will try and keep you informed of developments over the coming weeks. It is our sincere hope, before we are forced to sever the Marina from the waterway, that we will be able to conclude a new standard NAA with those who eventually have ownership and control of the Marina, and that they will be committed to complying with its terms and conditions in the future.

Please be assured that the Trust is very sympathetic to the position in which you now find yourselves and we will always have regard to your interests in so far as we are able in deciding our future actions.

Please feel free to email me or call me on either of the numbers shown below.

Yours sincerely

Phil Spencer

Head of Business Boating

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Quite. I think most other Marinas in the area ARE oversubscribed, mainly because they're full of ex-Pillings Lock boaters.

There's between 20 and 30 spaces here at Mercia for leisure narrowboats, but waiting lists for wide beams, GRP cruisers and residentials.

 

I realise Mercia's a bit far away for many at PLM.

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They need to read the email from CRT- issued Friday- Who have stated that licence fees would be refunded when the marina is closed off. CRT are not the bad boys here

<snip>

That is not quite what is says though, what is says is that the NAA has been revoked already and as of this point in time there is no requirement for boats in the marina to be licenced, as technically there is no connection to the waterway because the marina is required to have closed that connection off. If the marina have not closed it by 12 April that CRT will do it themselves. I don't see that CRT have said they will refund licences, but anyone in the marina at this point could choose to get a refund on their license if they so wanted, but in the hope that this gets resolved very soon that could be being rather premature.

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I think more saliently, a term of the NAA is that all boats in the private marina must have CRT licences. Now the NAA has been revoked, this requirement lapses too, so all boaters in the marina are entitled to cancel their licenses forthwith. Hence Phil Spencer inviting them to in his email.

 

Should any boats wish to leave the marina though, they'll need a licence or be subjected to 'enforcement action' (which takes a few years IIRC!)

 

MtB

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The information seems to be getting 'muddled' somewhat'

 

QMP (Quorn Marina Properties) are shown as having £0 Assets and liabiities of £1,909,000, they have a single Director (since mid 2009) which is Mr Paul Lillie

 

Whilst QMH (Quorn Marina Holdings) have £10 liablities and £795,708 as assets.

With respect, the reports you have linked to only show CURRENT assets and liabilities.

I did get a bit muddled though: in the last accounts, QMP were shown with FIXED ASSETS of £2.575 million and LONG TERM LIABILITIES of £2.75 million (mortgage, presumably?). These are in addition to the current liabilities of £1.909m, that you mention, TOTAL LIABILITIES : nearly £4.66 million.

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There's between 20 and 30 spaces here at Mercia for leisure narrowboats, but waiting lists for wide beams, GRP cruisers and residentials.

 

I realise Mercia's a bit far away for many at PLM.

 

Agreed there are some spaces at Mercia, but I think it's very much dependent on the size of narrowboat you have. From memory, moorings in the most popular 50'-60' range are pretty hard to come by. Strange that you say there's a waiting list for residential moorings - as far as I'm aware there is no distinction between liveaboard and part time boaters at Mercia at present, but they are negotiating with the local authorities to set something up.

 

Pillings Lock to Mercia Marina can be done in one day in the height of summer, though it does mean being up with the morning chorus and getting in at dusk. In the winter it's a two day trip and heavily dependent on the good behaviour of the Soar and the Trent. By car, Loughborough to Willington takes about 40 minutes.

 

Mercia is a well-appointed Marina but consequently not the cheapest. However, unlike Pillings, you do get what you pay for.

 

 

Edited by sociable_hermit
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This thread is getting so long now that I am disinclined to pool all the facts, but I think there are a few very important questions worth asking, for the benefit of those currently moored at PM ...such as

 

Who exactly are the parties to the contract?

What are the specific terms of the contract?

What provision, if any, is made for any variation to the terms by either party?

To what extent is the contract between the parties deemed to be verbal, implied or explicit?

 

Has anyone actually taken professional legal advice about this, other than QMP, QMH, PL or CaRT?

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This thread must be good for PLM as it is public exposure/advertising.

in the end it might work out well for them because the marina will not in fact be sealed, it will continue to trade and a lot of people who never even heard of it will know about it :) so they might actually get an upturn in business with 'now under new management' text written somewhere

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This thread is getting so long now that I am disinclined to pool all the facts, but I think there are a few very important questions worth asking, for the benefit of those currently moored at PM ...such as

 

Who exactly are the parties to the contract?

What are the specific terms of the contract?

What provision, if any, is made for any variation to the terms by either party?

To what extent is the contract between the parties deemed to be verbal, implied or explicit?

 

Has anyone actually taken professional legal advice about this, other than QMP, QMH, PL or CaRT?

I think I'd be looking to form a 'User Group' to stand up for your position whether that's against or for any of the multitude of Pillings Lock companies or CRT. £5:00 in each and nip off and get some legal advice quickly but certainly in time for the creditor's meeting next week and someone with a knowledge of the law to represent all of you. If you do it individually anyone can divide and rule; to do it through a 'solicitor' you will be getting professional advice and someone to speak on your behalf who doesn't have any emotional attachment. Even if it eventually costs you £30 each you will know that, even if the outcome is not in your favour, you have done your best. Whilst full of admiration for all the comments on here there's nowt quite as good as an unemotional professional opinion from someone you are retaining for that purpose. Edited by Leo No2
  • Greenie 2
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I think I'd be looking to form a 'User Group' to stand up for your position whether that's against or for any of the multitude of Pillings Lock companies or CRT. £5:00 in each and nip off and get some legal advice quickly but certainly in time for the creditor's meeting next week and someone with a knowledge of the law to represent all of you. If you do it individually anyone can divide and rule; to do it through a 'solicitor' you will be getting professional advice and someone to speak on your behalf who doesn't have any emotional attachment. Even if it eventually costs you £30 each you will know that, even if the outcome is not in your favour, you have done your best. Whilst full of admiration for all the comments on here there's nowt quite as good as an unemotional professional opinion from someone you are retaining for that purpose.

 

Absolutely right, though best to make it £50 up front.

 

A stiff letter to CART demanding that they refund all licences from the day the block is put up would be a start.

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A stiff letter to CART demanding that they refund all licences from the day the block is put up would be a start.

Not sure this is an awfully good idea! According to the CRT web site, you only get a % refund if you cancel your licence - it varies from getting 80% back if you cancel in month 1 to only getting 10% back if you cancel in month 8. After that you get nothing back. When a solution is found and the entrance reopened, boats will need to be licensed again. Boaters will need to work out if what they get back, and the length of time they may not need a licence, and how much a new licence will cost, makes it cost effective to cancel their licence. Apparently, if your licence still has 6 months to run, instead of the 50% which you might expect to get back, you will probably get about 32% back. A big difference.

 

haggis

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I think I'd be looking to form a 'User Group' to stand up for your position whether that's against or for any of the multitude of Pillings Lock companies or CRT. £5:00 in each and nip off and get some legal advice quickly but certainly in time for the creditor's meeting next week and someone with a knowledge of the law to represent all of you. If you do it individually anyone can divide and rule; to do it through a 'solicitor' you will be getting professional advice and someone to speak on your behalf who doesn't have any emotional attachment. Even if it eventually costs you £30 each you will know that, even if the outcome is not in your favour, you have done your best. Whilst full of admiration for all the comments on here there's nowt quite as good as an unemotional professional opinion from someone you are retaining for that purpose.

 

This can't be said enough. I and a few others have been saying this from the very start of this thread - and that was a while ago.

 

This thread is full of ideas and advice, but it's all just speculation unless/until it's all properly structured by a solicitor.

 

I don't think Paul meant 'good' in that context.

 

I think you're right.

 

cheers.gif

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Not sure this is an awfully good idea! According to the CRT web site, you only get a % refund if you cancel your licence - it varies from getting 80% back if you cancel in month 1 to only getting 10% back if you cancel in month 8. After that you get nothing back. When a solution is found and the entrance reopened, boats will need to be licensed again. Boaters will need to work out if what they get back, and the length of time they may not need a licence, and how much a new licence will cost, makes it cost effective to cancel their licence. Apparently, if your licence still has 6 months to run, instead of the 50% which you might expect to get back, you will probably get about 32% back. A big difference.

 

haggis

 

Yes, but that's if YOU decide to cancel the licence. In this scenario, CART is making it impossible for you to use the canal (something not envisaged in the T&Cs), so I think a full refund of the unexpired portion is appropriate.

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Agreed there are some spaces at Mercia, but I think it's very much dependent on the size of narrowboat you have. From memory, moorings in the most popular 50'-60' range are pretty hard to come by. Strange that you say there's a waiting list for residential moorings - as far as I'm aware there is no distinction between liveaboard and part time boaters at Mercia at present, but they are negotiating with the local authorities to set something up.

 

Pillings Lock to Mercia Marina can be done in one day in the height of summer, though it does mean being up with the morning chorus and getting in at dusk. In the winter it's a two day trip and heavily dependent on the good behaviour of the Soar and the Trent. By car, Loughborough to Willington takes about 40 minutes.

 

Mercia is a well-appointed Marina but consequently not the cheapest. However, unlike Pillings, you do get what you pay for.

 

 

 

 

It also does no deals..Just honest trading!

 

Yes you do get what you pay for at Mercia which for conventional moorers at PLM is actually cheaper after you discover the hidden ,somewhat illegal scams at PLM

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Yes, but that's if YOU decide to cancel the licence. In this scenario, CART is making it impossible for you to use the canal (something not envisaged in the T&Cs), so I think a full refund of the unexpired portion is appropriate.

Yes, but that's if YOU decide to cancel the licence. In this scenario, CART is making it impossible for you to use the canal (something not envisaged in the T&Cs), so I think a full refund of the unexpired portion is appropriate.

CRT is doing no such thing, the canal is there and if you have a licence you have a choice to get your boat out of the marina soon, or lorry it out somewhere else afterwards.

  • Greenie 1
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Yes, but that's if YOU decide to cancel the licence. In this scenario, CART is making it impossible for you to use the canal (something not envisaged in the T&Cs), so I think a full refund of the unexpired portion is appropriate.

 

At the moment, the absolute worst thing the occupants could do would be to start giving CRT a hard time. That would be be playing completely into Paul Lillie's hands.

 

The occupants and CRT are both creditors of QPM, they are on the same side. If the occupants want a solution that benefits them, they want to be best friends with CRT, not their enemies.

 

There's plenty of time to discuss those fees when all the dust has settled. I would even be so bold as to suggest that the occupants would be in a better position to negotiate an equitable settlement with a friend and ally than with someone with whom they had created antipathy.

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Absolutely right, though best to make it £50 up front.

 

A stiff letter to CART demanding that they refund all licences from the day the block is put up would be a start.

 

You are demanding something they are already offering in the letter to boaters

 

Richard

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