Dispute at Pillings

[MtB]

Quite.

 

Allan stating he saw the email, for example, would be fine. But if Alan were to say 'well everybody in the pub has been saying it, so I thought I'd say it on here', then we'd all have grave doubts about it being true.

 

The provenance of a piece of information is as important as the information itself in my view.

 

So Allan says he knows someone who says he asked Simon Salem in an email. That sounds rather weak to me.

 

MtB

Edited March 4, 2014 by Mike the Boilerman

[Allan(nb Albert)]

Quite.

 

Allan stating he saw the email, for example, would be fine. But if Alan were to say 'well everybody in the pub knows, so I thought I'd tell you on here', then we'd all have grave doubts about it being true.

 

The provenance of a piece of information is as important as the information itself. Innit.

 

MtB

Well everybody in the pub knows that Red Hill are going to acquire it ...............

 

However, I believe Simon Salem on this because evidence already in the public domain supports what he is saying.

[Phantasm]

Despite the preceding 4000+ posts, consisting mostly of amateur sleuthing, lawyering and guesswork about what might or might not happen to the ownership of this benighted marina, has anybody weighed up what the C&RT's alternatives are? If they blockade the place, boaters there have a choice, to either stay or go. If they stay, they have been told they do not have to pay a licence, which incurs a financial loss to the C&RT. In addition, this will almost certainly result in bad publicity, as the boaters are completely innocent parties in this mess. (It's also my belief that there will be quite a few boaters who never move their boats and will be more than happy with that arrangement.) With the marina then blocked and no agreement forthcoming with the current "management", C&RT obviously cannot claim any money for a NAA, which means further loss.

If the marina does eventually get offered by the IP, he's not going to find it easy to obtain a sale, what with the place's "history" and the current financial climate and, when he does, any new owner will surely negotiate for a fresh NAA, meaning another hiatus before cash starts to go the C&RT's way.

A lot of people may not wish to hear this, but aren't the C&RT going to have to take a pragmatic view of this and, for better or worse, do a fairly prompt deal with the current lot? If they don't, then what?

A bird in the hand etc.

I think it will be difficult for CaRT to "take a pragmatic view of this and.....do a fairly prompt deal with the current lot" because, irrespective of publicity, it will only serve to broadcast that they are not resolute in their business strategies. If you had a business and had been shafted once, why would you be prepared to negotiate with the same company again?

 

I do not, and will not, waiver from the terms of my contracts. I have had only two companies try and renege on payment, both of which I refused to let off, and both of which tried to employ my company again. Suffice it to say, they had to go elsewhere even though I had to do without the income from their contracts. I am good at what I do and I expect the agreed payment for the service commissioned. CaRT are no difference, albeit on a much larger scale.

 

Sometimes businesses have to weigh up the loss of future income against dealing with a company that has a track record of non-payment of bills. And any new QMP company will be only a facsimile of the old one.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Phantasm

[tupperware]

Well everybody in the pub knows that Red Hill are going to acquire it ...............

 

However, I believe Simon Salem on this because evidence already in the public domain supports what he is saying.

 

Whilst I would not expect you to divulge the details of an email interchange between Simon Salem and some third party, if the named gentleman has made one or more statements recorded in the public domain regarding CRT's lack of interest in acquiring the marina site a link would be useful. I must admit to being a little surprised at Mr Salem's name being mentioned in this regard as I would have imagined that Stuart Mills, CRT's property director would be the party most concerned.

[MtB]

Tupperware, could you remind me (and the board) which post at CRT Simon Salem holds please?

 

Marketing director I think. So if I'm right then as you say, possible property acquisitions are well outside of his authority.

 

Many thanks.

[haggis]

Is Simon Salem not sally Ash's boss? Which makes him head of boating, or something like that.

 

haggis

[tupperware]

Tupperware, could you remind me (and the board) which post at CRT Simon Salem holds please?

 

Marketing director I think. So if I'm right then as you say, possible property acquisitions are well outside of his authority.

 

Many thanks.

 

Simon Salem is listed as the Marketing and Fundraising director which does indicator that he, along with his fellow directors, would collectively decide whether to suggest a purchase, or otherwise, to the CRT Trustees. Nonetheless, policy in respect of potential additions to the property portfolio would be the responsibility of Stuart Mills, the Property director. I understand the directors make recommendations to the trustee who make the final decisions. This is why I find it a little odd that a Sales and Marketing director, whose role is largely advisory in respect of overall policy, would be making public remarks about matters rather than ensuring that any collective advice to the trustees be kept confidential.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

 

Whilst I would not expect you to divulge the details of an email interchange between Simon Salem and some third party, if the named gentleman has made one or more statements recorded in the public domain regarding CRT's lack of interest in acquiring the marina site a link would be useful. I must admit to being a little surprised at Mr Salem's name being mentioned in this regard as I would have imagined that Stuart Mills, CRT's property director would be the party most concerned.

It is Philip Ridal, Finance Director, who is CaRT's director on BWML's board not Stuart Mills (although I believe that one of Mr Mills direct reports is also a BWML director).

 

Simon Salem is CaRT's marketing and fundraising director and responsible for CaRT's press and image. He is also responsible for boating.

 

In short, he categorically stated BWML was not interested in Pillings and added that he thought they'd be pilloried if it went for it.

 

As far as I am aware, that is the only comment he has made regarding Pillings.

 

Information in the public domain suggests that BWML's 'expansion by acquisition' policy is failing and trustees are expressing concern regarding the financial, operational and reputational

impact of its subsidiary.

 

 

 

[RLWP]

It is Philip Ridal, Finance Director, who is CaRT's director on BWML's board not Stuart Mills (although I believe that one of Mr Mills direct reports is also a BWML director).

 

Simon Salem is CaRT's marketing and fundraising director and responsible for CaRT's press and image. He is also responsible for boating.

 

In short, he categorically stated BWML was not interested in Pillings and added that he thought they'd be pilloried if it went for it.

 

As far as I am aware, that is the only comment he has made regarding Pillings.

 

Information in the public domain suggests that BWML's 'expansion by acquisition' policy is failing and trustees are expressing concern regarding the financial, operational and reputational

impact of its subsidiary.

 

 

 

I'm a bit confused by this. Simon Salem works for CRT, not BWML. so, you may be repeating his personal opinion, but no more

 

CRT and BWML are run as separate businesses

 

Richard

[Allan(nb Albert)]

 

Simon Salem is listed as the Marketing and Fundraising director which does indicator that he, along with his fellow directors, would collectively decide whether to suggest a purchase, or otherwise, to the CRT Trustees. Nonetheless, policy in respect of potential additions to the property portfolio would be the responsibility of Stuart Mills, the Property director. I understand the directors make recommendations to the trustee who make the final decisions. This is why I find it a little odd that a Sales and Marketing director, whose role is largely advisory in respect of overall policy, would be making public remarks about matters rather than ensuring that any collective advice to the trustees be kept confidential.

It is Finance Director, Philip Ridal, who as CaRT's senior director on BWML who makes proposals to the board of Trustees regarding purchase of new marinas under BWML's 'expansion by acquisition policy'.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

 

I'm a bit confused by this. Simon Salem works for CRT, not BWML. so, you may be repeating his personal opinion, but no more

 

CRT and BWML are run as separate businesses

 

Richard

BWML is a wholly owned subsidiary of CaRT. CaRT owns all its shares and appoints directors to its board.

 

Put simply CaRT controls the supply of money to BWML. Any proposal to purchase Pillings would require a proposal from joint director Philip Ridal to the CaRT board. This will not happen because the last time around he asked for £4m to buy a couple of marinas but the subsequent performance of BWML has not been as projected.

 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

It is Philip Ridal, Finance Director, who is CaRT's director on BWML's board not Stuart Mills

 

 

Philip Ridal is also a Director of the following :

 

Canal & Rivers Marinas Ltd

Canal & Rivers Developments Ltd

Canal & River Investments Ltd

Canal & River Fundraising Ltd

Canal & River Friends Ltd

Canal & River Pension Partner Ltd

Canal & River Trading Ltd

Brtish Waterways Marinas Ltd

Aquamanta Ltd

 

"Philip Ridal holds 9 current appointment, has resigned from 92 companies and held appointments at 21 dissolved companies. Philip began their first appointment at the age of 37 and their longest current appointment spans 12 years and 9 months at AQUAMANTA LIMITED"

[Allan(nb Albert)]

 

Philip Ridal is also a Director of the following :

 

Canal & Rivers Marinas Ltd

Canal & Rivers Developments Ltd

Canal & River Investments Ltd

Canal & River Fundraising Ltd

Canal & River Friends Ltd

Canal & River Pension Partner Ltd

Canal & River Trading Ltd

Brtish Waterways Marinas Ltd

Aquamanta Ltd

 

"Philip Ridal holds 9 current appointment, has resigned from 92 companies and held appointments at 21 dissolved companies. Philip began their first appointment at the age of 37 and their longest current appointment spans 12 years and 9 months at AQUAMANTA LIMITED"

Following Nigel Johnson's 'early bath' he is also Secretary to the Board.

 

As a general point BW/CaRT appoint directors to all subsidiaries and joint ventures in which the have an interest.

[Mike Todd]

I think that, in practice, there is no difference. CRT's statement seems merely to be using the recognised term to describe their insistence that the other party in some new NAA agreement has title to the land. Whether this is to preclude PLM, as a leaseholder of the defunct QMP, from attempting to contract such an arrangement is difficult to say.

 

TDM. Did your fellow "fugitives" express any reasons as to why they had decided to leave?

 

Mike. I understand where you are coming from but I have not seen any evidence so far that QMP was being used as a personal piggy bank.

I was being careful. One of pl's incarnations claimed that buying out john Lillie was one of the causes of business failure. That, I thought, was personal transaction not a business cost.

I think that, in practice, there is no difference. CRT's statement seems merely to be using the recognised term to describe their insistence that the other party in some new NAA agreement has title to the land. Whether this is to preclude PLM, as a leaseholder of the defunct QMP, from attempting to contract such an arrangement is difficult to say.

 

TDM. Did your fellow "fugitives" express any reasons as to why they had decided to leave?

 

Mike. I understand where you are coming from but I have not seen any evidence so far that QMP was being used as a personal piggy bank.

I was being careful. One of pl's incarnations claimed that buying out john Lillie was one of the causes of business failure. That, I thought, was personal transaction not a business cost.

[Mike Todd]

An update on one aspect of pl's claims. He suggested that bwml could save money by not having a highly paid manager at each marina. I can report that, at least in the case I know about, the marina manager looks after 5-6 sites. A supervisor looks after 3. The opportunity for cost saving is not quite what pl claimed, as far as I can see.

[sociable_hermit]

_{This is getting more and more ridiculous.}

 

_{The NBW article is laughable in many ways. I spoke to a BWML Marina Manager in the pub last night and they were furious that Paul Lillie is saying BWML Managers get paid half as much again as Paul's £60k a year salary, when in fact they get significantly less than he is paid. Similarly BWML Marinas have to pay the same taxes as every other business whereas he alleges they get special treatment.}

 

_{The business plan for Pillings Lock Marina has never been right. Because they got it so wrong, the Lillies signed up to a deal with BW which they couldn't honour. Perhaps the business plan would have been better if they'd actually read and understood what they were signing and factored the details into the plan? To sign something and then whinge that "it isn't fair" is childish and pathetic. Why did you agree those terms if you didn't like them, then, you idiots?}

 

_{Paul is very good at jumbling up costs and profits. A £60k salary is a cost, oh look we never made much of a profit and BW took a lot of it. Funny, that. My heart bleeds.}

 

_{Paul is also very good at jumbling up responsibility for his business failing between BW / CRT and the management of Pillings Lock Marina, including himself. One of the main reasons the Marina has never done particularly well is because Paul is a shifty, two-faced, money-hungry dodgepot with the morals of a hyena. Pillings didn't need any help from BW to get into trouble, they were quite capable of doing that themselves.}

 

_{It's also interesting to see how John Lillie is reinventing himself as the innocent party, boater's best friend and general Mr. Nice. Come off it. If you ran a successful boatbuilders for many years how come you got involved in this fiasco without thinking to check the figures? Ooh I never knew. Really??? And once the Marina was built what was your job spec exactly, other than wandering around moaning at people? Don't forget this is the same guy who demanded the toilets and showers were closed at 9pm so the people walking up the stairs to use them (who were paying for the privaledge in their mooring fees, don't forget) wouldn't disturb his peace and quiet. The same guy who insisted that liveaboards were unofficial and shouldn't disclose their status to the Council, but then wanted to impose hefty 'service' charges on those same liveaboard boaters. Err, they're either official or they're not - can't have it both ways. Oh and let's not forget the fist fight with his own son and the Police helicopter chase.....}

 

_{The whole thing is very MarineEnders.}

[Mike Todd]

An update on one aspect of pl's claims. He suggested that bwml could save money by not having a highly paid manager at each marina. I can report that, at least in the case I know about, the marina manager looks after 5-6 sites. A supervisor looks after 3. The opportunity for cost saving is not quite what pl claimed, as far as I can see.

[johnlillie]

_{This is getting more and more ridiculous.}

 

_{The NBW article is laughable in many ways. I spoke to a BWML Marina Manager in the pub last night and they were furious that Paul Lillie is saying BWML Managers get paid half as much again as Paul's £60k a year salary, when in fact they get significantly less than he is paid. Similarly BWML Marinas have to pay the same taxes as every other business whereas he alleges they get special treatment.}

 

_{The business plan for Pillings Lock Marina has never been right. Because they got it so wrong, the Lillies signed up to a deal with BW which they couldn't honour. Perhaps the business plan would have been better if they'd actually read and understood what they were signing and factored the details into the plan? To sign something and then whinge that "it isn't fair" is childish and pathetic. Why did you agree those terms if you didn't like them, then, you idiots?}

 

_{Paul is very good at jumbling up costs and profits. A £60k salary is a cost, oh look we never made much of a profit and BW took a lot of it. Funny, that. My heart bleeds.}

 

_{Paul is also very good at jumbling up responsibility for his business failing between BW / CRT and the management of Pillings Lock Marina, including himself. One of the main reasons the Marina has never done particularly well is because Paul is a shifty, two-faced, money-hungry dodgepot with the morals of a hyena. Pillings didn't need any help from BW to get into trouble, they were quite capable of doing that themselves.}

 

_{It's also interesting to see how John Lillie is reinventing himself as the innocent party, boater's best friend and general Mr. Nice. Come off it. If you ran a successful boatbuilders for many years how come you got involved in this fiasco without thinking to check the figures? Ooh I never knew. Really??? And once the Marina was built what was your job spec exactly, other than wandering around moaning at people? Don't forget this is the same guy who demanded the toilets and showers were closed at 9pm so the people walking up the stairs to use them (who were paying for the privaledge in their mooring fees, don't forget) wouldn't disturb his peace and quiet. The same guy who insisted that liveaboards were unofficial and shouldn't disclose their status to the Council, but then wanted to impose hefty 'service' charges on those same liveaboard boaters. Err, they're either official or they're not - can't have it both ways. Oh and let's not forget the fist fight with his own son and the Police helicopter chase.....}

 

_{The whole thing is very MarineEnders.}

in response to above, I am not trying to reinvent myself as boater's best friends, other than an interest in the outcome of PLM (for very personal reasons to which I have admitted), I no longer have any interest whatsoever in boats or boaters, other than the friends I made when boatbuilding and at the start of PLM.

"Oh I never knew, really?". YES REALLY, when we started, we had an agreement, I got on with the actual work of building the marina, (with a lot of help from my friends) and he did all the office work.

As to the toilet saga, A big flaw in the design was the outside steel steps, and the lack of sound insulation between the living accommodation and the rest of the building. It was truly purgatory living there, made worse by inconsiderate people using the toilets outside the stipulated times, rather than use their own onboard facilities, presumably just to save a bob or two, were you one of those? I used to start work at 7am, to unlock the gates, and sometimes be up till after midnight in the café, cashing up etc, then get woken by people clomping up the steel steps to use the loo. I certainly make no apologies for attempting to impose the curfew, and most reasonable people understood why.

Liveaboards? I HAD NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH THE POLICY OF LIVEABOARDS, the price of moorings or any other financial decision, whether you like to believe it or not, PL and steadmans dealt with all of that. The only "major" decision I made, was changing the suppler of the laundry equipment.

As to " wandering around moaning at people, ", the last few moths there were the most stressful time of our lives (myself and Carol), I was probably in a permanent bad mood, If you care to reveal yourself, and if I owe you an apology, I would happily meet and buy you a pint. As to claiming to be "Mr nice guy", I have admitted early on this forum that I am probably the most impatient person on the planet, with a very short fuse, but what you see is what you get, I am not a cheat and a liar.

[Machpoint005]

_{This is getting more and more ridiculous.}

 

_{The NBW article is laughable in many ways. I spoke to a BWML Marina Manager in the pub last night and t...}

Aha! That utterly reliable source, the man in the pub!

[Dangerous Dave]

in response to above, I am not trying to reinvent myself as boater's best friends, other than an interest in the outcome of PLM (for very personal reasons to which I have admitted), I no longer have any interest whatsoever in boats or boaters, other than the friends I made when boatbuilding and at the start of PLM.

"Oh I never knew, really?". YES REALLY, when we started, we had an agreement, I got on with the actual work of building the marina, (with a lot of help from my friends) and he did all the office work.

As to the toilet saga, A big flaw in the design was the outside steel steps, and the lack of sound insulation between the living accommodation and the rest of the building. It was truly purgatory living there, made worse by inconsiderate people using the toilets outside the stipulated times, rather than use their own onboard facilities, presumably just to save a bob or two, were you one of those? I used to start work at 7am, to unlock the gates, and sometimes be up till after midnight in the café, cashing up etc, then get woken by people clomping up the steel steps to use the loo. I certainly make no apologies for attempting to impose the curfew, and most reasonable people understood why.

Liveaboards? I HAD NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH THE POLICY OF LIVEABOARDS, the price of moorings or any other financial decision, whether you like to believe it or not, PL and steadmans dealt with all of that. The only "major" decision I made, was changing the suppler of the laundry equipment.

As to " wandering around moaning at people, ", the last few moths there were the most stressful time of our lives (myself and Carol), I was probably in a permanent bad mood, If you care to reveal yourself, and if I owe you an apology, I would happily meet and buy you a pint. As to claiming to be "Mr nice guy", I have admitted early on this forum that I am probably the most impatient person on the planet, with a very short fuse, but what you see is what you get, I am not a cheat and a liar.

 

 

Take it you two are not going to meet in the ,fabulous ,fantastic ,new breed of marina eatery,"boat house", bar/bistro/restaurant though and not read the fantastic menu!

 

May i recommend the Soar Bridge Inn.,Barrow on Soar.

 

I did hear that members of the "Pillings Lock Liberation Front" meet there sometimes so you will be more welcome .

[RLWP]

 

I did hear that members of the "Pillings Lock Liberation Front"

 

Splitters!

 

Richard

[Grace and Favour]

 

 

May i recommend the Soar Bridge Inn.,Barrow on Soar.

 

I did hear that members of the "Pillings Lock Liberation Front" meet there sometimes so you will be more welcome .

Does the menu include "Larks' tongues. Otters' noses. Ocelot spleens."?

[Dangerous Dave]

Does the menu include "Larks' tongues. Otters' noses. Ocelot spleens."?

 

 

Its local to me again now so i will enquire ..lol

 

Certainly BULL **** isn't advertised!

 

Also Old Flannel wearers will not be allowed entrance!

Edited March 5, 2014 by Dangerous Dave

[costalot]

I was being careful. One of pl's incarnations claimed that buying out john Lillie was one of the causes of business failure. That, I thought, was personal transaction not a business cost.

 

I thought that comment was made by his partner rather than PL. It was then subsequently reported that the buy out of JL was made by the Steadman's who purchased JL's 25% increasing their share to 75%. So I agree, it doesn't appear the buy out was a cost against the business.

An update on one aspect of pl's claims. He suggested that bwml could save money by not having a highly paid manager at each marina. I can report that, at least in the case I know about, the marina manager looks after 5-6 sites. A supervisor looks after 3. The opportunity for cost saving is not quite what pl claimed, as far as I can see.

We lived at a marina for 12 months whilst our boat was being built and I got to know the manager rather well. My impression was his salary was in the low to mid £30,000. The staff were earning £15-20,000. It appears to me that £60,000 is significantly higher than the normal salary for a marina manager. But remember PL was/is a director and a part owner, so he probably considers the salary reasonable for his position. And if the business was doing well few would begrudge him it!

[Thorfast]

 

 

 

But remember PL was/is a director and a part owner, so he probably considers the salary reasonable for his position. And if the business was doing well few would begrudge him it!

 

Ah, but we now seem to know that the business was not doing well. Very low profits recorded and large payments due to CaRT not being made.

Having run my own business, in hard times, I was the one person who I did not pay a wage or salary too! Seems PL may not have seen things the same way!