Is This Our Boat Sickle IN 1957 or 1958?

[alan_fincher]

[Photograph Cyril Boucher : Copyright Andrew Boucher]

I am really excited to have been sent this fascinating photograph taken at Dudswell on the Grand Union in either 1957 or 1958.

I am convinced the tug pictured is one of the four "Middle Northwich" boats shortened and converted by the Ministry of War Transport in 1942 - the proportions of the cabin seem to be a "Middle" rather than a "Large" Northwich, ruling out Renton, I think.

However which of the four it is is a bit of a mystery, and most of the subtle differences that can help distinguish one from another are only viewable from the front, rather than the rear, of the boat.

But here I'm seeing a boat apparently still with an original Northwich cabin, (which were wooden planked at the back), apparently in good order, except that it seems a steel patch may have been added at the bottom of the cabin-sides. It also has proper Northwich handrails. However the apparently non-standard Northwich counter is a bit of a mystery - later on Sickle had a non-standard counter arrangement, but this isn't it, unless guards got moved about at some point.

I'm pretty certain this boat isn't Tycho, (the rocker bar being completely wrong for all known pictures of Tycho), and I have slightly more tenuous, but very reasonable, reasons to think it is not Theophilus either. That leaves Sextans or Sickle as by far the most likely. I don't know a lot about Sextans at this time, but Sickle is a boat associated with the area, whereas I have always understood that Sextans worked much further North, although that is not proven.

So is this Sickle or not, I wonder? It would be wonderful to establish it was, (or indeed to prove conclusively which of the other boats it is).

What a wonderfully evocative picture of one of these boats in use in exactly the way they were for far more decades than most carrying narrow boats ever actually carried - I'm immensely grateful for permission to show it off.

(The picture was taken by Cyril Boucher, and the copyright belongs to his son Andrew.)

Edited December 1, 2013 by alan_fincher

[Athy]

To these eyes, the paint job looks rather non-standard: black sides, yellow stripe at the top only, rather than framing the whole side. Could this be a clue?

I am grateful to you for the expression "Northwich handrails" - 'Trojan' has this type and I did not know that there was a special name for them.

[kbarber]

To these eyes, the paint job looks rather non-standard: black sides, yellow stripe at the top only, rather than framing the whole side. Could this be a clue?

I am grateful to you for the expression "Northwich handrails" - 'Trojan' has this type and I did not know that there was a special name for them.

To my eye, the apparent black side is a trick of the light (or perhaps the reproduction); I suspect it's the same dark blue as the cabin back. But I may be wrong... be interesting to see what others make of the colour.

 

Alan: thanks for sharing. Lovely picture.

[Timleech]

To these eyes, the paint job looks rather non-standard: black sides, yellow stripe at the top only, rather than framing the whole side. Could this be a clue?

I am grateful to you for the expression "Northwich handrails" - 'Trojan' has this type and I did not know that there was a special name for them.

 

Finger breakers.

 

Tim

[mark99]

 

Finger breakers.

 

Tim

 

 

B***ards if you are prepping for painting.

[Athy]

 

B***ards if you are prepping for painting.

Indeed - patience is required, though the flat-topped bar is probably easier to prepare than the round type often found on cruiser-stern boats. I don't quite get the "finger breakers" bit. We specified these handrails on 'Trojan' because they seem to us to offer more safety than ordinary cants, especially in cold or slippery conditions.

Yes, the apparent black side could be a trick of the light, especially as colour photography would not be very advanced back in 1957.

 

(Thinks: I wonder why cruiser-sterns tend to have round-section handrails and trad-sterns more often have cants)

[Timleech]

 

Indeed - patience is required, though the flat-topped bar is probably easier to prepare than the round type often found on cruiser-stern boats. I don't quite get the "finger breakers" bit. We specified these handrails on 'Trojan' because they seem to us to offer more safety than ordinary cants, especially in cold or slippery conditions.

Yes, the apparent black side could be a trick of the light, especially as colour photography would not be very advanced back in 1957.

 

(Thinks: I wonder why cruiser-sterns tend to have round-section handrails and trad-sterns more often have cants)

 

Not sure what you mean by 'cants' here, I suppose solid handrails? the term is usually reserved, in Narrow Boat terminology, for the raised sections around fore- and stern decks.

The original Northwich type handrails are real finger-breakrs because there is just room to get your fingers under them, while holding on, but not enough room to get them out in a hurry. Anyone sensible fitting the same style on a new boat, or even on a rebuild of an original, will put greater clearance under the rail & then they are fine.

 

Tim

[Athy]

 

Not sure what you mean by 'cants' here, I suppose solid handrails?

Yes. I believe that it's fairly common parlance when referring to modern boats.

Now I get the finger-breaking bit - ours do indeed have sufficient clearance for comfortable and fracture-free use. Thanks for the explanation.

[David Schweizer]

 

Finger breakers.

 

Tim

 

Northwich handrails stopped me falling off the gunnels into the river Nene once, when we were travelling in the rain at some speed - at night !!! I suspect I would not have got the same degree of grip on the more conventional type of handrail

Edited December 2, 2013 by David Schweizer

[Derek R.]

Lovely lumps of coal for the steam pile driver. Nice dark blue too - Oxford more than Azure. Nice. Lovely shot of boats working. My money's on SICKLE.

[ChimneyChain]

One difference Ive noticed is that the towing dolly and hook swap sides in this photo taken at dudswell and a photo that Alan published with sickle towing a barge in 73.

 

Darren

[archie57]

To be pedantic it's actually the steam dredger backfilling the concrete piling (-you can see the grab behind the RH man)

[pete harrison]

But here I'm seeing a boat apparently still with an original Northwich cabin, (which were wooden planked at the back), apparently in good order, except that it seems a steel patch may have been added at the bottom of the cabin-sides. It also has proper Northwich handrails. However the apparently non-standard Northwich counter is a bit of a mystery - later on Sickle had a non-standard counter arrangement, but this isn't it, unless guards got moved about at some point.

I have an excellent and detailed photograph of SEXTANT taken on 21 May 1961. The cabin is still original and it has no steel plate added to the bottom edge of the cabinside. The towing hook is on the same side as the boat in Mr Boucher's photograph and the spacing of the gaurds around the counter look to be original to me, or at least they are riveted to the counter and they follow the dents of the counter perfectly. The spacing apart of the 'A' frames that supports the roll bar looks the same as in Mr Boucher's photograph but the top section is squarer and is more flimsy - and the front section is missing, although of course this may not be original.

 

edit - I am pretty confident this is SICKLE based on a photograph from a similar thread that shows SICKLE below Fishery Lock with HEATHER BELLE going past as a camping boat and is dated 1957. The slightly unusual livery of SICKLE in this photograph is the same as the one in Mr Boucher's photograph.

Edited December 2, 2013 by pete harrison

[Derek R.]

Yes, absolutely correct Archie - a grab it is!

 

I do like that colour scheme - strip of yellow breaks the blue and red oxide roof. I painted TYCHO's roof in red oxide to begin with and wasn't happy with it, that arrangement looks better.

[alan_fincher]

edit - I am pretty confident this is SICKLE based on a photograph from a similar thread that shows SICKLE below Fishery Lock with HEATHER BELLE going past as a camping boat and is dated 1957. The slightly unusual livery of SICKLE in this photograph is the same as the one in Mr Boucher's photograph.

Interesting!

 

I do not have a particularly good version of that image, but my strong view is that it is not the exact same livery in both photos, and hence my dilemma in trying to declare that Mr Boucher's picture is Sickle, as both photographs are claimed to be near enough on dates, that I'm surprised the same boat could appear in similar but not (in my view) identical liveries, both in good order.

 

The special livery on the Fishery photo is though to relate to Sickle's use in an exhibition of maintenance boats at Browning's Pool at about this date, so was almost certainly applied in or about 1957. It is possible it was applied to the boat in Mr Boucher's photo, I suppose, but it would have been a bit of an extravagance, as that doesn't seem to need a repaint either!

 

If you compare the two photos, My Boucher's photo clearly shows the yellow band at the top as being painted along the top of the cabin side, but actually on the turned over riveted edge of the roof.

 

I believe the Fishery photo shows a band below that line, although to my eyes with the poor resolution it is not even obvious we are looking at a steel Northwich cabin, with Northwich handrails. I'm not sure if you have access to a better impression of this photo?

 

Here they are again, together

 

 

[Photo Cyril Boucher, Copyright Andrew Boucher]

 

[Copyright believed to be National Waterways Museum]

I have an excellent and detailed photograph of SEXTANT taken on 21 May 1961. The cabin is still original and it has no steel plate added to the bottom edge of the cabinside. The towing hook is on the same side as the boat in Mr Boucher's photograph and the spacing of the gaurds around the counter look to be original to me, or at least they are riveted to the counter and they follow the dents of the counter perfectly. The spacing apart of the 'A' frames that supports the roll bar looks the same as in Mr Boucher's photograph but the top section is squarer and is more flimsy - and the front section is missing, although of course this may not be original.

 

Oh how I would love to see that photo! Is it in the public domain anywhere, please, or can you point me at an archive where it is held.

 

Assuming there is a "rocker bar" running back as far as the engine room, does it attach to the front of the engine room, giving a lower bar, as per Tycho, or to a raised plate as in the pictures here, thus placing the bar higher?

 

If it is the former, and assuming it never got changed, then that is good evidence that Mr Boucher's photo isn't Sextans/Sextant, and by elimination is very likely indeed to be Sickle.

 

There is a very poor still taken of one of these boats when filming was being done at Knowle locks that features a boat with only the back half of the rocker bar still present, (but still carrying an ice ram). If I'm understanding your description correctly, that sounds like it may well be Sextans/Sextant, then.

Edited December 2, 2013 by alan_fincher

[alan_fincher]

 

The original Northwich type handrails are real finger-breakrs because there is just room to get your fingers under them, while holding on, but not enough room to get them out in a hurry. Anyone sensible fitting the same style on a new boat, or even on a rebuild of an original, will put greater clearance under the rail & then they are fine.

Yes, one of Sickle's not completely historically accurate features is just this - an increased gap beneath, at which point I think they are fine.

 

(Unless you place anything on the roof that can roll, but which will fit underneath them when doing so!.....)

[billh]

Aside from the interesting collection of boats in the photograph, you may be more interested in the photographer- Doctor C.T.G. Boucher - as canal enthusiasts we owe a lot to him . His knowledge of canal engineering , his books , his life long enthusiasm for all things waterway. I am privileged to have known him , a bit of googling will be rewarded.

[Derek R.]

Got a link Bill? 14 pages of googling has found nothing.

 

As an aside, I did find this: http://www.grantham-canal.co.uk/ Anyone know the boat?

[Proper Job]

?

 

http://www.penninewaterways.co.uk/peak/pf10.htm

[Timleech]

Got a link Bill? 14 pages of googling has found nothing.

 

He was a leading light in the Peak Forest canal Society, at the time when the Ashton was derelict and the Lower Peak Forest in danger of becoming so.

Quite likely the 'Cheshire Ring' would never have become a reality without his input.

 

Tim

[the grinch]

Got a link Bill? 14 pages of googling has found nothing.

 

As an aside, I did find this: http://www.grantham-canal.co.uk/ Anyone know the boat?

Centauri been at the canal for quite a while

[pete harrison]

Oh how I would love to see that photo! Is it in the public domain anywhere, please, or can you point me at an archive where it is held.

Assuming there is a "rocker bar" running back as far as the engine room, does it attach to the front of the engine room, giving a lower bar, as per Tycho, or to a raised plate as in the pictures here, thus placing the bar higher?

 

If it is the former, and assuming it never got changed, then that is good evidence that Mr Boucher's photo isn't Sextans/Sextant, and by elimination is very likely indeed to be Sickle.

The photograph I have of SEXTANT is not in the public domain, but is part of a private collection. Fortunately, and not wishing to sound imperious, I am the current custodian of this private collection which includes both the original image as well as the original negative - along with an account of the observation. Consequently without permission from the owner I am unable to publish this photograph, and there is no point in me asking for permission as I am all too aware that the answer will be no.

 

I can add that the 'rocker bar' on SEXTANT is mounted below the level of the cabin top.

[alan_fincher]

The photograph I have of SEXTANT is not in the public domain, but is part of a private collection. Fortunately, and not wishing to sound imperious, I am the current custodian of this private collection which includes both the original image as well as the original negative - along with an account of the observation. Consequently without permission from the owner I am unable to publish this photograph, and there is no point in me asking for permission as I am all too aware that the answer will be no.

 

I can add that the 'rocker bar' on SEXTANT is mounted below the level of the cabin top.

OK, fair enough.

 

It does seem highly unlikely then that the boat in Cyril Boucher's picture is Sextans/Sextant, and for similar reasons that it is not Tycho.

 

I know you are familiar with a picture taken at Whichellos Wharf, Leighton Buzzard of one of these boats tied up facing South, with Wyvern Shippings "Heather Belle" and "Elizabeth" passing it going North, and that boat has to be either "Sickle" or "Theophilus", with all available evidence pointing to it being "Theophilus".

 

The boat at in the Leighton Buzzard photo is almost certainly not the one in Cyril Boucher's photo, so with all of "Sextans", "Tycho" and "Theophilus" almost certainly ruled out or the latter, it would seem that after all the very strong balance of probability is that it it is after all "Sickle", being the only other possibility.

 

The livery not being the same as in the photo taken at Fishery is possible, if perhaps a bit surprising. The apparent non-standard counter also seems to be unlikely to be any other boat but "Sickle". However as there is something like a 14 year gap before the next available pictures I have of "Sickle", any number of changes could have occurred in that time, but would have to include further changes to at least the guards on the counter, and the scrapping of a steel Northwich back cabin, and replacement with a wooden one.

[alan_fincher]

Another thought......

 

The detail of the steam dredger in the picture is much obscured....

 

 

However I note some apparent similarities to the steam dredger "Perseverance", which is ex Grand Union canal Company, and worked on the GU, though I have no idea until when.

 

 

Any chance this is the same, or a similar type of dredger? Do we have any steam dredger experts on here ?

 

[Athy]

What amazing, if brief, footage! Is this all-action beastie still in, er, action down there?