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Random rookie questions about buttys


Starcoaster

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I have first come to properly "notice" buttys very recently, as a new pal has one (an undercloth conversion motorised LMS butty with scary hydraulics).

 

It was only when I got on the back for a run out that my keen powers of observation alerted me to the fact that unless you are the steerer, wherever you stand in the well, you are in the way of the tiller swing, and I automatically went to stand on the gunnels... Oh.

Why don't buttys have gunnels on the cabin? I am sure this is perfectly obvious, but I have never been blessed with an analytical mind or the power of logical thought. So?

 

Also (possibly an even stupider question?), is the whole of the steering mechanism of a butty called the elum, or is that just the rudder part, and the giant pole that you actually hold to steer is still called the tiller as on a motorised boat?

 

 

I had wine with dinner, so am no longer to embarrassed to reveal the depth of my ignorance and ask. :D

 

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Hi

 

Butties don't have gunwales to maximise the internal space. In trading days, most families used the butty cabin as their main home with the motor providing additional accommodation. The ellum is the complete rudder, also known as the rams head. They derived from horse boats, the introduction of motors allowed an increase in the amount of cargo handled by a crew.

 

Cheers

 

Dave

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That was ok for the steerer, but not for me when I was the passenger! What we did in the end was non-steerer on the roof.

But WHY don't butty cabins have gunnels!

 

Motors have gunnels because that is the access to the engine room. Buttys don't need them.

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It is often the case that comments posted refer to existing craft, but what of the cabin boats of the nineteenth century, before the advent of the motor boat? Cabins fitted to narrowboats, according to early advertisements, could be of different sizes. Such information can be checked with the sanitary boat registration which recorded such information. I believe, may be Hecla can confirm.

 

Also on barges cabin size also varied. On Trent Boats it was possible to find offset cabins in the centre of the boat.

 

Ray Shill

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And being perhaps unduly pedantic, if what you travelled on was indeed originally an LMS boat, then it was probably not built as a butty.

 

A butty is strictly the un-powered boat of a motor/butty pair, and AFAIK the LMS didn't build any.

 

What the LMS did build were horse drawn boats for use with short haul interchange traffic between canal-side railway depots, and other canal-side sites themselves not having a railway connection.

 

I'm not too knowledgeable about these "station boats", as they are often known, but doubt originally that many would have had even a full butty cabin with live-aboard accommodation, because I doubt that they were intended to be lived on.

 

Later several were adapted in BW days to become buttys to motor boats, but they were not originally built for this. Any motorisation, or replacing of a "butty" back end with a "motor" back end on any only came much later in the lives of those so altered.

 

Some information here, here and here. (Images missing from the first of those, for me, unfortunately).

They are usually very pretty boats, and can make very pretty conversions, if handled sympathetically.

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An amazing bit of information gleaned from the first of those links: there were 22 railway/ canal interchange basins on the BCN alone. We (all right, I) sometimes forget the former magnitude of the canal carrying era.

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Hi

 

Butties don't have gunwales to maximise the internal space. In trading days, most families used the butty cabin as their main home with the motor providing additional accommodation. The ellum is the complete rudder, also known as the rams head. They derived from horse boats, the introduction of motors allowed an increase in the amount of cargo handled by a crew.

 

Cheers

 

Dave

It is also much easier to pass over the roof of a butty or horseboat than a motor so gunwales aren't necessary.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

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It is also much easier to pass over the roof of a butty or horseboat than a motor so gunwales aren't necessary.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

 

And the cabin of a butty is so much lower than that of a motor (since the latter has to accommodate the propshaft below the floor), that if it did have gunwales, you wouldn't be able to hold onto the handrail, so gunwale-walking would be much more precarious than on a motor.

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I'm not too knowledgeable about these "station boats", as they are often known, but doubt originally that many would have had even a full butty cabin with live-aboard accommodation, because I doubt that they were intended to be lived on.

The LMS Railway Company had six of their new 'Yarwood' built horse boats health registered at Wolverhampton in 1930, and the B.C.N. gauge registers show all six to be fully rigged long distance type boats with cratches, cloths and all the usual associated equipment. My understanding is that these six boats were built to operate on the Staffordshire and Worcestershire Canal.

 

Motors have gunnels because that is the access to the engine room. Buttys don't need them.

This has always been my understanding as well.

It is often the case that comments posted refer to existing craft, but what of the cabin boats of the nineteenth century, before the advent of the motor boat? Cabins fitted to narrowboats, according to early advertisements, could be of different sizes. Such information can be checked with the sanitary boat registration which recorded such information. I believe, may be Hecla can confirm.

 

Ray Shill

Boat cabins could be of any size, but if they were to be used as a dwelling then they had to conform to the regulations laid down in the Canal Boats Act 1877. These regulations did not determine the size of a cabin but did dictate how many people could be accommodated within it - dependant upon its size..

 

A requirement of a health registration is the calculation of the cabin's internal space, demonstrated as cubic footage. Most health registration certificates will list the internal length, width and height upon which the calculation is based.

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The LMS Railway Company had six of their new 'Yarwood' built horse boats health registered at Wolverhampton in 1930, and the B.C.N. gauge registers show all six to be fully rigged long distance type boats with cratches, cloths and all the usual associated equipment. My understanding is that these six boats were built to operate on the Staffordshire and Worcestershire Canal.

This has always been my understanding as well.

That's very interesting. I did cover myself by saying I thought not many would be so equipped, so I guess it depends if you can count six as "not many!"

 

Do your researches say which six, and do they include any of those now presented in "long distance unconverted butty" format?

 

Two questions I also admit to be clueless on Pete, so would welcome some education.

 

It is unclear to me to what extent these railway boats were named when first built, and to what extent they have retained names and an ability to determine which original boat they were. I'm obviously not expecting you to give a lot of detail, but could you give at least a broad idea of what the situation is.

 

Also I have heard some argue they are all "Station boats", because of the LMS ownership, and the traffics they were involved in, whereas others say that name only applies to ones turned into carrying buttys, and which then assumed the names of railway stations. I guess maybe as it is only a name they acquired, it could be argued that either can be true, but I'm curious if you would call them all "Station bats", as many do, or limit that name to just a select few?

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As you may expect, yes I do have full details of the six 'Yarwood' built L.M.S.R. Company boats that were initially operated as fully rigged family type horse boats. Whether these boats are currently presented in this fashion is harder to answer as so many of these boats have lost their original identities throughout their working lives, and have since been renamed based on heresay, elimination and guesswork. I am fairly confident that the boat currently named OLIVE was one of these cabin boats, but I am not so sure that this boat is carrying the correct name (I did help the owner at the time with selecting a possible name).

 

All of the 'Yarwood' built L.M.S.R. Company boats were originally named, but so many have lost their names, builders plates and gauge plates - not to mention being chopped about - that it is now impossible to definetively sort out what is what. Clearly several can be positively identified but all of the comprehensive lists I have seen regarding the current status of these boats are built on far too much assumption.

 

I have always known these 'Yarwood' built L.M.S.R. Company boats as 'Station Boats', and as you say they are quite attractive, if a little small for my taste. Although the B.T.W. conversions of twelve of these boats are named after railway installations I have never referred to them separately as 'station boats' or 'railway boats'. I call all of the 'Yarwood' built L.M.S.R. Company boats 'Station Boats' and refer to the B.T.W. conversions as 'cabin conversions'

 

edit - Basically identifying the 'Yarwood' built L.M.S.R. Company boats is a nightmare, and something I have attempted to do in the past and now steer well clear of captain.gif

Edited by pete harrison
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Motors have gunnels because that is the access to the engine room. Buttys don't need them.

 

I'd like to challenge Alan in the pedanticism (is that a real word?) stakes ;)

 

I suggest that all narrowboats have gunwhales, the gunwhale being the top of the top plank, or the top edge of the hull.

 

Butties and horse boats generally don't have a 'walkable' side deck along the cabin sides, but they still have gunwhales.

 

:)

 

MtB

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Thanks Pete, as ever, very interesting.

 

Clearly several can be positively identified but all of the comprehensive lists I have seen regarding the current status of these boats are built on far too much assumption.

Yes, I assume this was so, and plead guilty to pasting in some links without caveats about how accurate the "information" in them might be, or to what degree assumptions might have been made. I should really have put a warning alongside the links, I guess.

 

I was trying to give some background to people not familiar with them, rather than provide detailed histories of particular boats, and accept your statement that in many cases is unlikely to ever be possible.

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I'd like to challenge Alan in the pedanticism (is that a real word?) stakes ;)

 

I suggest that all narrowboats have gunwhales, the gunwhale being the top of the top plank, or the top edge of the hull.

 

Butties and horse boats generally don't have a 'walkable' side deck along the cabin sides, but they still have gunwhales.

 

:)

 

MtB

Mike, you do open yourself to correction with a post like that!!

 

I put it to you that no motors, butties or horse boats have ever had gunwhales, but they may all have gunwales.

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I'd like to challenge Alan in the pedanticism (is that a real word?) stakes wink.png

OK, a pedant contest, is it?

 

I'd like to point out that the statement that buttys don't have them isn't always strictly accurate anyway.

 

This is definitely a butty......

 

Z..DSCF0230+Lindsey+and+Keppel.jpg

I put it to you that no motors, butties or horse boats have ever had gunwhales, but they may all have gunwales.

Touché!

Edited by alan_fincher
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I suggest that all narrowboats have gunwhales, the gunwhale being the top of the top plank, or the top edge of the hull.

 

Butties and horse boats generally don't have a 'walkable' side deck along the cabin sides, but they still have gunwhales.

 

smile.png

 

MtB

My understanding is that the gunwale is the wooden capping attached to the uppermost edge of the side plank, or to the angle riveted to the uppermost edge of the metal side plating - and in both cases is always around the hold.

 

If this is the case this wooden capping continues on a motor beyond the engine room to the stern end of the back cabin, where there is usually a small drainage gap before the cants start. This means that the motor does indeed have gunwales. On a horse boat / butty the gunwales around the hold end at the back cabin front bulkhead, with the cabin sides extending down to the outer edge of the top plank - so a horse boat / butty does not have gunwales. The cants on the stern of a horse boat / butty usually carry on the line of the gunwales from the other end of the back cabin.

 

There are of course a few boats that do not conform to this standard (such as the 'Admirals') but these are few and far between.

 

edit - to add more dross captain.gif

Edited by pete harrison
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A good friend of mine used to tell me that as a child they sometimes loaded coal at Digby Colliery on the Nottingham Canal, and while in that part of the world they often came across (otherwise) ordinary horseboats which had gunnels around the cabin. I've never seen a picture though......

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Mike, you do open yourself to correction with a post like that!!

 

I put it to you that no motors, butties or horse boats have ever had gunwhales, but they may all have gunwales.

 

Good point! I agreee I often poke fun at peeps for there spellin....

 

Gilty as charged!

 

:)

 

MtB

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A good friend of mine used to tell me that as a child they sometimes loaded coal at Digby Colliery on the Nottingham Canal, and while in that part of the world they often came across (otherwise) ordinary horseboats which had gunnels around the cabin. I've never seen a picture though......

At least one (and no more than two) Associated Canal Carriers Ltd. / Grand Union Canal Carrying Company Ltd. butty had gunwales that could be walked on.

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