Indian built CS2 engines

[Athy]

I think you're right Alan - though perhaps they sold the engines as received rather than working on them first. I think Longboat Engineering ceased to market their Greaves (Indian Ruston & Hornsby) engines for the same reason.

 

So, does a brand new Russell Newbery pass the tests?

Edited October 15, 2013 by Athy

[RLWP]

I think you're right Alan - though perhaps they sold the engines as received rather than working on them first. I think Longboat Engineering ceased to market their Greaves (Indian Ruston & Hornsby) engines for the same reason.

 

So, does a brand new Russell Newbery pass the tests?

 

I believe (WARNING) it doesn't have to. This is the 'Grandfather's rights' thing - it's been in continuous production so it doesn't have to comply with the tests that a new engine coming onto the market does. The Listeroids (and that name is significant) are effectively new engines, not a continuation of production

 

Richard

[Athy]

Good point, R - but from what date must this continuous production have started? I don't know the history of (what Tony Redshaw hates calling) Listeroids but I assume they've been building some of them for 20 years or more. I believe the emissions regs came in during the early noughties, so anything which was already being made before then should be OK.

 

So I could have a new Petter PH2 (still in Lister's catalogue as a stationary engine) marinised to put in my next boat and, no matter how smoky it was, it would be exempt from the regulations?

[Albion]

OK. Do the Redshaws not modify the engines to correct these problems? I am far from being an engineer but I assume that a skilled engineer can adapt an engine so that it becomes more efficient and emits fewer nasties?

 

I wonder if my 2LW would pass one of these emission tests. Has anyone ever tried? It's slightly smoky when cold but appears to burn cleanly when warmed up. I am sure that my last engine, a Rigas Dizelis 24, would have failed spectacularly!

Mike Clarke and I spent time getting the (then) proposed EU legislation changed, to allow existing designs NOT in series production, to be used in narrowboats because it was very unlikely that they would have passed and on heritage grounds (as well as stopping the required drive by noise level test and significant wave height requirements for boats like narrow boats).

 

 

I'm not sure that is the issue. Doing the modifications may be relatively simple, doing all the tests necessary to get the accredited certificate would be prohibitively expensive

 

Richard

Spot on Richard.

 

I suppose a phone call or email should answer that question, but I suspect the honest answer will be "no"!

 

As I understand it Calcutt stopped selling new Turkish built BMC 1800s for similar reasons of non compliance.

Also as I understand it because the engine was in series production in Turkey and therefore would not have been exempt from the requirements even though it was an old design.

 

 

I believe (WARNING) it doesn't have to. This is the 'Grandfather's rights' thing - it's been in continuous production so it doesn't have to comply with the tests that a new engine coming onto the market does. The Listeroids (and that name is significant) are effectively new engines, not a continuation of production

 

Richard

Again, spot on.

Roger

Edited October 15, 2013 by Albion

[RLWP]

The Listeroids are terribly difficult. We may think of them as Lister CS engines - but they're not. They aren't made by Lister, many Listeroids aren't even copies of Listers and incorporate features of several manufacturers. So they are more mongrel engines built to run water pumps and generators in India by enterprising engineering companies.

 

Richard

[Athy]

Interesting information - and I do remember (with gratitude) the efforts of Mr. Clarke and your goodself in this area. In fact I think I rushed to place my order at Walsh's before the anticipated restrictive legislation came in, which largely thanks to your petitioning it didn't.

 

What is "series production"? Is there a cut-off point? For example, the Turkish factory makes 1,000 BMCoids a year, that is series production. RN makes (say) six DM2s a year. That is not series production. Somewhere in the middle there must be a dividing line.

[steamraiser2]

An acetic question, Mr. Sarson! Redshaw's have been Gardner specialists for many years, so they have great experience in working on and restoring Gardner engines. I therefore assume that they know their way round them.

 

In reply to an earlier post, I thought that the CS2 as sold by Redshaw's had been rebuilt so that it complied with EEC emissions rules. Can anyone confirm or deny?

You can't "rebuild" an engine to comply with EU emissions etc. Type approval is far more than the level of particulate and other emissions coming out of the exhaust. CS engines, no matter where built, do not comply with EU requirements which is why they are not CE marked or come with a Certificate of Compliance. They cannot be legally supplied to a third party user within the EU.If you come across an engine so marked I would be inclined to take the paperwork to the nearest Trading Standards office!

[rjasmith]

Interesting information - and I do remember (with gratitude) the efforts of Mr. Clarke and your goodself in this area. In fact I think I rushed to place my order at Walsh's before the anticipated restrictive legislation came in, which largely thanks to your petitioning it didn't.

 

What is "series production"? Is there a cut-off point? For example, the Turkish factory makes 1,000 BMCoids a year, that is series production. RN makes (say) six DM2s a year. That is not series production. Somewhere in the middle there must be a dividing line.

 

I've always been interested in this as well.

 

The same subject came up in this thread a few months back and despite the reassurances I got from Ally's (Beacon Boats) surveyor colleague that there would be nothing to worry about, we have to remember that the present arrangement is what happens under the version of the RCD that came out in 2003 for implementation in Jan 2006.

 

Currently there is a new RCD amendment going through which further tightens the emission requirements. The amendment was supposed to be approved some time in 2013. Does anyone know if it has been yet?

 

Hopefully this will only apply to new engines as before and will be implemented to replace the current RCD from about 2017 I believe.

 

Last time I contacted Michael Clarke in Belgium (about a year ago) he said he was having some difficulty getting the vintage engine "grandfathering" concept across to the British rapporteur Malcolm Harbour so that the concept could be retained in the new RCD amendment.

 

Hopefully Ally's reply to me is still correct but things may have moved on.

 

Richard

[Albion]

Interesting information - and I do remember (with gratitude) the efforts of Mr. Clarke and your goodself in this area. In fact I think I rushed to place my order at Walsh's before the anticipated restrictive legislation came in, which largely thanks to your petitioning it didn't.

 

What is "series production"? Is there a cut-off point? For example, the Turkish factory makes 1,000 BMCoids a year, that is series production. RN makes (say) six DM2s a year. That is not series production. Somewhere in the middle there must be a dividing line.

Interesting question. I will pose it to someone much more au fait than I.

Roger

[martyn 1]

In reply to an earlier post, I thought that the CS2 as sold by Redshaw's had been rebuilt so that it complied with EEC emissions rules. Can anyone confirm or deny?

 

Having just been looking into the required process for emissions testing for a project as part of my day job. There is no way a 1920's designed engine could possibly come even close to the modern emission requirements with out so much redesign that it wouldnt be the same engine by the time your done, not to mention the huge cost of doing so. So my fairly educated conclusion is there is no chance they are EEC emissions complient. A few years ago out of interest I tested a 3LW we had recently rebuild with a local garages emissions tester and even though the exhaust wasnt visible it was well over the allowable emission amount even for Stage I let alone the current Stage IIIA for non road diesels.

 

As previously mentioned The old Listers and Gardner get around these emissions standards on the exemptions for vintage engines. so if these CS's were new builds currently still being built by Lister and had been in continuous production since the 20's then no problem, but they are not they are a copy built by a third party so dont fall into this exemption. Though as previously mentioned this is not an issue if its your own boat and your going to keep it a while.

So, does a brand new Russell Newbery pass the tests?

 

In short as RLWP has said, no they dont, But as they fall into the been in continuous production bracket they dont have to.

Edited October 15, 2013 by martyn 1

[rjasmith]

In short as RLWP has said, no they dont, But as they fall into the been in continuous production bracket they dont have to.

 

Agreed, under the current (2003 approved, 2006 implemented) RCD amendment.

 

But what happens in the new RCD that is about to be approved (this year?) for implementation in 2017?

 

Does the same principle continue?

 

Richard

Edited October 15, 2013 by rjasmith

[Albion]

Interesting question. I will pose it to someone much more au fait than I.

Roger

 

 

 

Agreed, under the current (2003 approved, 2006 implemented) RCD amendment.

 

But what happens in the new RCD that is about to be approved (this year?) for implementation in 2017?

 

Does the same principle continue?

 

Richard

Right, I've just had a phone call with the expert (Mike Clarke) and the position is this:-

RNs are technically classed as series production and shouldn't, in theory, be produced but they are getting away with it due to poor Trading Standards enforcement of the exisitng RCD. Apparently even one new engine cannot comply.

 

The new RCD (approved by the EC Parliament and about to go to EU Council where the chatter is that it will be approved) has removed all exemptions for old engines etc. When it comes into force, probably in a year or so, no old non-compliant engines will be allowed in new build boats.

 

There is also another directive (already in force apparently) trying to force member nations to toughen up their enforcement of directives in general and the RCD (existing and new version) will be one of those (but not exclusively) that this new enforcement directive will target.

So, in summary, if you want a trad engine in your new boat get it built before the new RCD is enacted OR have it built with a slave compliant engine and then change it once you have taken delivery (as if).

Roger

 

Edited to add that this removal of the old engine exemption from the new RCD was fought to the bitter end by Mike Clarke but, finally, he could do no more as the Rapporteur and other were just not going to agree with it remaining in the new legislation.

Edited October 15, 2013 by Albion

[rjasmith]

 

 

Right, I've just had a phone call with the expert (Mike Clarke) and the position is this:-

RNs are technically classed as series production and shouldn't, in theory, be produced but they are getting away with it due to poor Trading Standards enforcement of the exisitng RCD. Apparently even one new engine cannot comply.

 

The new RCD (approved by the EC Parliament and about to go to EU Council where the chatter is that it will be approved) has removed all exemptions for old engines etc. When it comes into force, probably in a year or so, no old non-compliant engines will be allowed in new build boats.

 

There is also another directive (already in force apparently) trying to force member nations to toughen up their enforcement of directives in general and the RCD (existing and new version) will be one of those (but not exclusively) that this new enforcement directive will target.

So, in summary, if you want a trad engine in your new boat get it built before the new RCD is enacted OR have it built with a slave compliant engine and then change it once you have taken delivery (as if).

Roger

 

Edited to add that this removal of the old engine exemption from the new RCD was fought to the bitter end by Mike Clarke but, finally, he could do no more as the Rapporteur and other were just not going to agree with it remaining in the new legislation.

 

Roger,

 

Oh dear!!

 

So my wittering on about this on CWDF - first about a year ago and again a few months back was correct then!

 

In the last email I got from Mike he did say that following approval there is a three year grace period before the implementation date so presumably it should mean that we will have until 2017 or thereabouts before the old arrangements no longer apply (perhaps that is what you mean by "enacted"?).

 

Be interesting to know what the UK vintage engine suppliers (MPS, RN, Redshaws etc) think and/or are doing about this!

 

Richard

Edited October 15, 2013 by rjasmith

[Albion]

 

Roger,

 

Oh dear!!

 

So my wittering on about this on CWDF - first about a year ago and again a few months back was correct then!

 

In the last email I got from Mike he did say that following approval there is a three year grace period before the implementation date so presumably it should mean that we will have until 2017 or thereabouts before the old arrangements no longer apply (perhaps that is what you mean by "enacted"?).

 

Be interesting to know what the UK vintage engine suppliers (MPS, RN, Redshaws etc) think and/or are doing about this!

 

Richard

I'm not sure whether the enactment of the legislation is the same as the grace period but I suspect that is just a period to allow the various governments to get their act together and start doing something. In theory though the enactment is the date the legislation comes into force and any subsequent grace period (grey area) would be after that date I would think.

 

To be honest I cannot see that the low volume old engine manufacturers/restorers can do anything at all about it. If our Trading Standards people have their arras kicked by the new enforcement directive and start enforcing then it is only a matter of time before those manufacturing people have the knock on the door I would guess. Unless we adopt the French technique of course (Oooo, can't believe I said that ) and agree to implement it but just don't get round tuit. Perhaps though that is why the new enforcement directive has been introduced because the Parliament is fed up with their legislation not being enforced wholeheartedly by member states. Who knows how the bureaucracy works.

Roger

[PaddingtonBear]

I looked at one at Redshaw's last year. Impressive, though I did not see it running, and not expensive compared with alternatives such as a rebuit Gardner. Tony told me that in fact they didn't find sand in them.

I get the mpression that Redshaw's know what they're doing, so their original choice of engine and their marinisation of same should be sound.

Really?

[Athy]

Yes, really. That's why I wrote it. Have you information to the contrary?

[martyn 1]

Be interesting to know what the UK vintage engine suppliers (MPS, RN, Redshaws etc) think and/or are doing about this!

 

Richard

Well can't talk for others but from our point of view if that is what the legislation ends up saying than that is what it says. Not overly a problem to us as a large amount of the engines we do are either refit motors for older boats so could continue unless the legislation is carefully worded to retrospectively cover engines on older vessel before x date. And we also do a lot of engines for private individuals in parts of the EU that just don't care what the legislation says and do what they like anyway. Oh and not to mention the ones for restoring power generation and locomotives etc where it wouldn't apply at all. Edited October 15, 2013 by martyn 1

[steamraiser2]

Don't forget it only applies to engines "supplied" All the vintage engine restorers can continue to restore the private property of owners ad infinitum as they are not "supplying". All you will see happen is that new build boats will be supplied less engine or with a temporary motor as suggested elsewhere. We have clients throughout Europe who already have their own stash of vintage engines which get drip fed to us for restoration. If you think the possible EU regulations are tough try having a boat on Lake Geneva ! It could be an issue for some of the boatbuilders who supply and install their own vintage motors but I doubt it.

 

Interesting in that the Barrus and Beta engines ( embarrassing to mention them in the same post as proper engines! ) will also be non compliant when the next EU engine tier comes into force!

[MtB]

Yes, really. That's why I wrote it. Have you information to the contrary?

 

The towpath telegraph holds that Tony Redshaw knows his stuff and any engine rebuilt by him is fine. The problem is said to be that getting an engine rebuilt by Tony in particular can be quite difficult because Tony takes rather a back seat in the business these days and not everyone else working in the firm consistently manages to match Tony's exacting standards, hence the occasional unhappy punter.

 

This may or may not be true, but I hear it said once in a while.

 

MtB

[by'eck]

I heard from Tony himself that he is looking towards retiring. From another source I heard that Paul his son is more interested in fabrications than engine rebuilds.

[MtB]

I heard from Tony himself that he is looking towards retiring. From another source I heard that Paul his son is more interested in fabrications than engine rebuilds.

 

Very diplomatically explained...

 

 

MtB

[scrumpylurcher]

Someone else may no better than me but I believe that Redshaws imported 2 of these Indian built engines into the UK 2 or 3 years ago. they rebuilt both of them, one was fitted to Percy which was Tony`s boat which he has since sold. The second unit was fitted to another boat very recently (10 Days or so) this work being done on the dockside at Braunston Boats.

I am fairly sure that Tony is near retiring and my opinion is that they are not rushing to import more of these units. I dont wish to comment on their company engine skills, I wouldn't however take my 2L2 to them.

[MtB]

Someone else may no better than me but I believe that Redshaws imported 2 of these Indian built engines into the UK 2 or 3 years ago. they rebuilt both of them, one was fitted to Percy which was Tony`s boat which he has since sold. The second unit was fitted to another boat very recently (10 Days or so) this work being done on the dockside at Braunston Boats.

I am fairly sure that Tony is near retiring and my opinion is that they are not rushing to import more of these units. I dont wish to comment on their company engine skills, I wouldn't however take my 2L2 to them.

 

 

I'll buy it then.... Always wanted a 2L2!

 

 

MtB

The other boat being the boat that sells the witchcraft stuff?

 

Have they sold their wonderful Dorman D2? mad to replace in my view!

 

MtB

[GBBS]

I'll buy it then.... Always wanted a 2L2!

 

 

MtBThe other boat being the boat that sells the witchcraft stuff?

 

Have they sold their wonderful Dorman D2? mad to replace in my view!

 

MtB

Mike, call Bim if you are interested in the dorman. It's available.

[Sarsons]

Very diplomatically explained...

 

 

MtB

Or to put it another way, one can't do it any more and the other still can't do it. 'Paint brush' restoration will continue until the myth finally dies. Far too many people have paid lots of hard earned money to have a repainted crane engine. There are sadly more bad news stories than good news, happy ending stories. Good people have been driven off the canal due to the costs they caused. I doubt either one could even lie straight in bed.