Sfs installation - minimum clearance

[Greedyheron]

Hi all

Could anyone give me some advice? I have a new solid fuel stove to fit, I have the soflitec pictorial guidelines and can comply with most of the advice. I have read quite a few threads but can't find the answer I'm looking for.

 

So we are planning on tiles on fireboard (victus vermiculite? Or any other recommendations?) then an air gap before the ply- so far so good. We can do the minimum distances between stove and combustible things. The kit with the stove has insulated flue through the ceiling. All good.

 

But the flue is single wall from stove to about a foot below the ceiling. Unless I put the stove almost in the middle of the boat (obviously then a hazard itself) I can't get the recommended 3x the diameter of the flu distance between cabin side and flue all the way up.

 

I'm thinking about putting fireboard all the way up the wall- but do I then need an air gap behind it? Which would then make the gap even smaller! We did think about cutting out the ply around the flue area and replacing it with fireboard (would then have fireboard on celotex on metal- non flammable all the way through).

 

What I really need is a copy of bs8511 so that i can see clearances for different fireboards etc- but its rather expensive!

 

Any opinions, advice?

[canals are us?]

_{Personally I would fireboard behind the fluepipe the same as behind the stove with the air gap as well and tile it or matt emulsion it to match.}

 

_{Then the flue only needs to be 1 and a half times the diameter away as the fireboard behind the flue is acting as a heat shield.}

_{See: http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/flue-distance-to-combustibles.html}

 

_{If you don't want to have tiles all the way up another option is to buy a length of cheap 1mm thick fluepipe in a larger size and cut it down lengthways and use one section as a heat shield and bolt it to the main flue with bolts and spacers to leave a 1inch gap between flue and the new flue pipe shield.}

 

 

By the way a centrally placed stove would distribute heat much better to the rest of the boat unless of course your having a stove with back boiler.

_James

Edited September 30, 2013 by canals are us?

[Greedyheron]

Ah thank you, it looks like fireboard and air gap is the way to go. I've looked at that site so many times but failed to see that diagram. The stove is being installed about half way along the boat so hopefully should keep both ends warm.

Whilst I'm at it- any one have any recommendations on fireboard? Victus looks good but is expensive - any other options people have tried and tested? Am I looking for some kind of particular rating?

[rjasmith]

Ah thank you, it looks like fireboard and air gap is the way to go. I've looked at that site so many times but failed to see that diagram. The stove is being installed about half way along the boat so hopefully should keep both ends warm.

Whilst I'm at it- any one have any recommendations on fireboard? Victus looks good but is expensive - any other options people have tried and tested? Am I looking for some kind of particular rating?

 

If you do still want to see a copy of the full BS 8511, have you tried asking in a local library? Unfortunately not all County library services justify the cost of the licence from Brit Stds that allows them to link their internal network to the BS online (BSOL) database. However some do (eg the extremely enlightened Cambrideshire service!).

 

Your library may just allow you to use a PC in the library (for a small fee perhaps) to view the std and make notes or even allow you to join and access BSOL via the library website ie from anywhere (view only access of course). Cambridgeshire allow this. If the library does give access, they may also allow you to take away prints of up to 10% of the total no of pages as this is acceptable to BS apparently.

 

It's certainly a good idea to have a read of the full doc if you can as it gives quite a large no of different options for stove installation which are not included in the Soliftec diagram!

 

The allowed safe gap to combustibles varies a great deal depending on the grade of fireboard and the figs are all given in the full doc.

 

Richard

[smileypete]

A very useful PDF on boat stove installation can be downloaded from Soflitec here:

 

http://www.soliftec.com/Installation.htm

 

Also a thread earlier this year on tiling and heat resistant board:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=57087

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited October 1, 2013 by smileypete

[Greedyheron]

Thanks both. I'l tryl to get to the library this weekend and see if they can give me access to the bs docs. I think I'll go with the victas board- expensive but seems to be the the right board.

[Charlotte Burnett]

I put an offcut No More Ply, available in tiling shops for about £15 per 2'x4' sheet into my stove for 2-3 days last winter. No damage. Does fireboard need to have some sort of BSS stamp? Comes in 6mm and 12mm, I cut it with an old hand saw, score and snap would be better but doesn't play with stanley knives and I didn't have anything harder to hand.

[Greedyheron]

Scrap that, midland chandlers have a board that does the job apparently at half the price - just need to get to the library now!

Charlotte I guess the problem is whether the board insulates or not, otherwise the nice flammable ply behind it will burn, leaving the non flammable suff in front. What is no more ply made of?

[rjasmith]

Scrap that, midland chandlers have a board that does the job apparently at half the price - just need to get to the library now!

Charlotte I guess the problem is whether the board insulates or not, otherwise the nice flammable ply behind it will burn, leaving the non flammable suff in front. What is no more ply made of?

 

I agree that the Midland Chandlers stuff will be good as it looks like it is based on a similar product to Skamolex Blue or Super Isol. When I bought mine 2 years ago it was virtually unobtainable here and I had to go to one of the only UK stockists at the time (John Opie in Essex) to collect it. Now, since the BS 8511 doc has settled in, some 3 years after its first publication, more and more chandlers seem to be stocking up with suitable compliant kit at last!

 

This is a 25mm thick Calcium Silicate board and has the very low thermal conductivity figure of 0.06W/mK. In the tables given in BS 8511 this allows you to use the smallest air gap/overall clearance figures (smaller than those shown in the Soliftec drawing which gives good guidance but naturally can't show all the options) . Other boards may have worse thermal conductivity figures and will need greater clearances.

 

Super Isol is apparently widely used in Scandinavia to construct fire places in wooden houses!

 

Good luck with the library trip - might be worth phoning them first to see if they can offer BSOL access! Surrey and West Sussex don't. Hampshire stopped but was going to restart it a while back and Cambridgeshire still do as said earlier. Haven't researched any other counties.

 

Richard

Edited October 4, 2013 by rjasmith

[blackrose]

Hi all

Could anyone give me some advice? I have a new solid fuel stove to fit, I have the soflitec pictorial guidelines and can comply with most of the advice. I have read quite a few threads but can't find the answer I'm looking for.

 

So we are planning on tiles on fireboard (victus vermiculite? Or any other recommendations?) then an air gap before the ply- so far so good. We can do the minimum distances between stove and combustible things. The kit with the stove has insulated flue through the ceiling. All good.

 

But the flue is single wall from stove to about a foot below the ceiling. Unless I put the stove almost in the middle of the boat (obviously then a hazard itself) I can't get the recommended 3x the diameter of the flu distance between cabin side and flue all the way up.

 

I'm thinking about putting fireboard all the way up the wall- but do I then need an air gap behind it? Which would then make the gap even smaller! We did think about cutting out the ply around the flue area and replacing it with fireboard (would then have fireboard on celotex on metal- non flammable all the way through).

 

What I really need is a copy of bs8511 so that i can see clearances for different fireboards etc- but its rather expensive!

 

Any opinions, advice?

 

I think the airgap is overrated. If you line the wall with fireboard behind the flue then that should be fine. Nobody used to put airgaps behind the fireboard - in fact most people used to tile directly onto the wood!

 

If you use wooden battons to create the airgap then you're back to square one and you've wasted your time.

 

I don't have an airgap and the wood behind the masterboard doesn't even get hot. I know because I can inspect it through a hole I made for a backboiler pipe.

[smileypete]

Thanks both. I'l tryl to get to the library this weekend and see if they can give me access to the bs docs. I think I'll go with the victas board- expensive but seems to be the the right board.

 

If you can't get an online copy there's a draft copy here, bear in mind some things may have changed in the final version (like the hearth spec possibly I hope!) but it'll give some idea.

 

http://www.jdl.eclipse.co.uk/Docs/Solid_Fuel_Stoves_in_Boats_Draft%20_or_Public_Comment_BS_8511.pdf

 

Another option for covering the fireboard opposite the flue could be a sheet of metal like brass or copper (not cheap! - old calorifier?) or even stainless. Fireboard should be fixed really securely too, ie screwed not glued.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited October 7, 2013 by smileypete

[Greedyheron]

Marvellous thanks- I shall have a look.

My old boat just had two sheets of aluminium as heat shields- with wallpapered fibreglass behind. It actually stayed quite cool behind them but now that I have the chance to fit a stove myself I'd rather do it as properly as possible than live with what ifs that can be avoided.

[Paul C]

Are the rumours true or not, that insurance firms don't like/won't cover for fire, unless a recently installed stove is done properly to BS8511 etc? That's what we were told by someone (I think it was one of the 3 marinas we asked to quote for the job - none of which we accepted) when we had ours put in last year.

[ditchcrawler]

Are the rumours true or not, that insurance firms don't like/won't cover for fire, unless a recently installed stove is done properly to BS8511 etc? That's what we were told by someone (I think it was one of the 3 marinas we asked to quote for the job - none of which we accepted) when we had ours put in last year.

I wonder why they told you that?

[smileypete]

Could always check the policy or phone 'em up. If the stove is installed and used reasonably competently I can't see it being a problem.

 

With serious fires on occupied boats, often the common denominator looks to be the lack of working smoke alarm

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited October 10, 2013 by smileypete

[Greedyheron]

I can see why they wouldn't want to pay out. Now that guidance is available it would be fair for an insurance company to expect you to install and use an appliance in line with it. The guidance gives them something to point to and say 'well that was an accident waiting to happen you've been negligent'. Most policies, mine included, have clauses around keeping all appliances and parts of the boat in a safe and well maintained condition, I would expect that relates to stoves too and the guidance gives them a baseline to work from in terms of whether you installed it 'safely'.

[Tom and Bex]

If you know anyone at university most of those also have student access to British standards online. I was able to download and print a full copy of BS8511 via someone who was doing her nursing!

 

Tom

[rjasmith]

If you know anyone at university most of those also have student access to British standards online. I was able to download and print a full copy of BS8511 via someone who was doing her nursing!

 

Tom

 

Good idea but take a little care about spreading this info (too late now!). BS are quite watchful about loop holes in their copyright and may make things difficult for BSOL licence holders where they think there are "leaks"!

 

I think this is why many County libraries have found it difficult to continue with online access.

 

The British Library used to allow loan copies to be available via an "inter library" loan request to your local library - I had heard that this had recently been stopped. Perhaps time to try again as a test case?

 

Richard

Edited October 11, 2013 by rjasmith

[A A Matthews]

On 30/09/2013 at 23:05, Greedyheron said:

Hi all

Could anyone give me some advice? I have a new solid fuel stove to fit, I have the soflitec pictorial guidelines and can comply with most of the advice. I have read quite a few threads but can't find the answer I'm looking for.

 

So we are planning on tiles on fireboard (victus vermiculite? Or any other recommendations?) then an air gap before the ply- so far so good. We can do the minimum distances between stove and combustible things. The kit with the stove has insulated flue through the ceiling. All good.

 

But the flue is single wall from stove to about a foot below the ceiling. Unless I put the stove almost in the middle of the boat (obviously then a hazard itself) I can't get the recommended 3x the diameter of the flu distance between cabin side and flue all the way up.

 

I'm thinking about putting fireboard all the way up the wall- but do I then need an air gap behind it? Which would then make the gap even smaller! We did think about cutting out the ply around the flue area and replacing it with fireboard (would then have fireboard on celotex on metal- non flammable all the way through).

 

What I really need is a copy of bs8511 so that i can see clearances for different fireboards etc- but its rather expensive!

 

Any opinions, advice?

Yes I am having trouble finding the same information hence me finding your post !

So the SOF guidance states 3 x diameter of flue with combustible surface behind. However I can’t find anything that mentions 3 x flue diameter with ‘non ‘ combustible surface behind!

I am planning CS and cement board as the non combustible a good safe plan but have no idea how far away my boatman stove ought to be from wall !!

[Alan de Enfield]

25 minutes ago, A A Matthews said:

Yes I am having trouble finding the same information hence me finding your post !

 

And, his last post was 10 years ago, so he either sorted it, or just did whateveryone does and follows the guidance where possible and ignore the 'impossible'.

[A A Matthews]

Yes I like your style!

[ditchcrawler]

1 minute ago, A A Matthews said:

Yes I like your style!

Remember with the original guidance there wasnt room to fit a stove in a Narrowboat

[A A Matthews]

On 04/10/2013 at 18:45, blackrose said:

 

I think the airgap is overrated. If you line the wall with fireboard behind the flue then that should be fine. Nobody used to put airgaps behind the fireboard - in fact most people used to tile directly onto the wood!

 

If you use wooden battons to create the airgap then you're back to square one and you've wasted your time.

 

I don't have an airgap and the wood behind the masterboard doesn't even get hot. I know because I can inspect it through a hole I made for a backboiler pipe.

Yes you speak wise words!

On 01/10/2013 at 00:06, canals are us? said:

_{Personally I would fireboard behind the fluepipe the same as behind the stove with the air gap as well and tile it or matt emulsion it to match.}

 

_{Then the flue only needs to be 1 and a half times the diameter away as the fireboard behind the flue is acting as a heat shield.}

_{See: http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/flue-distance-to-combustibles.html}

 

_{If you don't want to have tiles all the way up another option is to buy a length of cheap 1mm thick fluepipe in a larger size and cut it down lengthways and use one section as a heat shield and bolt it to the main flue with bolts and spacers to leave a 1inch gap between flue and the new flue pipe shield.}

 

_{http://www.savemoneywithus.com/images/Img777.jpg}

 

By the way a centrally placed stove would distribute heat much better to the rest of the boat unless of course your having a stove with back boiler.

_James

Great information as yours is the first post to suggest/ advise a 1 1/2 times flue diameter if you have non combustible wall materials .  It seems there is no easy way to get best practice on stove installation etc and it beggars belief that  some university libraries have these documents!  

[LadyG]

On 01/10/2013 at 00:06, canals are us? said:

_{Personally I would fireboard behind the fluepipe the same as behind the stove with the air gap as well and tile it or matt emulsion it to match.}

 

_{Then the flue only needs to be 1 and a half times the diameter away as the fireboard behind the flue is acting as a heat shield.}

_{See: http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/flue-distance-to-combustibles.html}

 

_{If you don't want to have tiles all the way up another option is to buy a length of cheap 1mm thick fluepipe in a larger size and cut it down lengthways and use one section as a heat shield and bolt it to the main flue with bolts and spacers to leave a 1inch gap between flue and the new flue pipe shield.}

 

_{http://www.savemoneywithus.com/images/Img777.jpg}

 

By the way a centrally placed stove would distribute heat much better to the rest of the boat unless of course your having a stove with back boiler.

_James

I think putting the stove in the centre of a walkway is the hazard envisaged not the centre of the length, which is better than at one end.