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Relative Values Of Historic Boats With A Conversion on?


alan_fincher

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Hi Alan, Baldock is now on Aplooduck at: http://www.apolloduck.co.uk/display.phtml?aid=329259. We bought our 1989 Mike Heywood of Baldock's owner and were moored next door for a couple of weeks in our early days of ownership. A lovely boat.

 

Thanks,

 

I was already aware from its owner that it would be going on "the Duck" soon.

 

I'm sure there has to be an explanation for a14 foot bathroom, but it does sound a tad excessive!

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Add to that,

 

Rigal (under cloth conversion of at least some of a butty) Now £45K

Bristol (Dipper) £53K

Columba Offers over £37K, but apparently going to be very expensive to do.

 

plus boats like Andromeda and Malvern already discussed above.

 

Also Baldock, though I don't think a published price has yet been put on that.

 

Also Slough is rumoured to be available for anybody who fancies a really big restoration! No idea of £££s.

 

.......Just off to look at a bit of a wild card that is none of those!

 

 

Yes I have!

 

I was genuinely surprised when you told me it was relatively lightweight work compared to Owl!

 

Perhaps Joshers are not for me!............

Edited by Whitewater
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Thanks,

 

I was already aware from its owner that it would be going on "the Duck" soon.

 

I'm sure there has to be an explanation for a14 foot bathroom, but it does sound a tad excessive!

Adding up the lengths given, compared to the length of cabin forward of the engine room, it does work.

 

Not necessarily that excessive, ours is 9' but could have benefitted from a few extra feet.

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jumping in at the end, having owned and operated a partly old boat (which merrited inclusion in the historic boat register), as for every boat, the main concern is, and should be, the soundness of the hull, to stay afloat. Moneywise, a 100 year old boat is worth scrap value.. it is not an investment, nor will it increase it's value over time. A boat is a floating commodity, waiting to sink. An original cabin, with resplendid lace and polised bed knobs, ain't going to keep it afloat, if the chines are worn. And spending several grands rebottoming a boat only saves the boat for the owner, it does not add value.

 

Historic boats are old boats, that cost a small fortune to keep afloat. discuss..

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it is not an investment.......

 

Agree..... I don't think many buying them are seriously expecting to make money out of them!

 

.......nor will it increase it's value over time.

Well clearly the actual price in pounds that can be commanded for one will continue to increase over time. I would be very happy to secure now for £30,000 what I might reasonably have expected to spend £3,000 on (say) 40 years ago.

 

I guess it depends what index you take, but it seems general UK price inflation has not actually yielded quite a ten-fold increase in the average price of things in the last 40 years, so you could argue that if a boat worth £3,000 in 1973 would fetch £40,000 now that you have to some extent beaten inflation.

 

But realistically, unless you had had somewhere to keep said boat at zero cost for the intervening 40 years, where it didn't rust at all, and the engine would still start when you took it out of storage, then you are going to have spent a heap of money ensuring that it was still worth the going rate.

 

So no, definitely not an investment.

 

But what canal boat is, looked at in those terms? Is a very old boat really any different to a Springer, a Colcecraft, or somebody's version of "Northwich Trader"?

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Historic boats are old boats, that cost a small fortune to keep afloat. discuss..

Once you’ve had the work done on an old boat, I can’t see that it’s any more costly to maintain than a modern one. I’ve spent on our ex FMC josher about what it would cost for a good second hand, fifteen year old Hudson. Apart from routine maintenance, batteries and the like, the only work I’ve had to do that was related to the age of the vessel has been a couple of small patches behind the knees. It’s true I’ve had to spend money on the Kelvin, but then modern engines are not immune to breakdowns either.

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Is a very old boat really any different to a Springer, a Colcecraft, or somebody's version of "Northwich Trader"?

Yes, in the same way that a Victorian terrace with nice fireplaces is very different to a new built Barratt "potty little 'Ouse", or how an Alvis TA14 drop head coupe is to a Ford Focus.

 

It's a direct material connection to the past, which has advantages and disadvantages. Your average Big Northwich is going to, probably, cost more to maintain than your average "Northwich Trader"- from any builder- not least because it is still floating about half a century after it was meant to be worn out and finished. Work needs to be done by specialists, not just any old yard, and it has to be done in certain ways- e.g. Cutting off Spitfire's round chines and replacing with square. Functional, and the boat still floats- but it's less authentically like what it was.

 

You get the fun of researching the past, of finding on Facebook the grandchild of the boatman who worked your boat, of finding it in old photographs and in books, of looking through gauging tables and seeing the name of your boat.

 

It's certainly not for everyone. For some it's enough just to love the canals; to others, the preservation of attitudes and boating techniques is as important as boats themselves. To some, it's snobbish and elitist, to others, it's conserving heritage.

 

This has been a bit of a stream of consciousness post, but really what I'm trying to say is that an old boat has what some might call a provenance, a history, that a more modern boat doesn't have- yet.

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Yes, in the same way that a Victorian terrace with nice fireplaces is very different to a new built Barratt "potty little 'Ouse", or how an Alvis TA14 drop head coupe is to a Ford Focus.

It's a direct material connection to the past, which has advantages and disadvantages. Your average Big Northwich is going to, probably, cost more to maintain than your average "Northwich Trader"- from any builder- not least because it is still floating about half a century after it was meant to be worn out and finished. Work needs to be done by specialists, not just any old yard, and it has to be done in certain ways- e.g. Cutting off Spitfire's round chines and replacing with square. Functional, and the boat still floats- but it's less authentically like what it was.

You get the fun of researching the past, of finding on Facebook the grandchild of the boatman who worked your boat, of finding it in old photographs and in books, of looking through gauging tables and seeing the name of your boat.

It's certainly not for everyone. For some it's enough just to love the canals; to others, the preservation of attitudes and boating techniques is as important as boats themselves. To some, it's snobbish and elitist, to others, it's conserving heritage.

This has been a bit of a stream of consciousness post, but really what I'm trying to say is that an old boat has what some might call a provenance, a history, that a more modern boat doesn't have- yet.

I could not have put it better, for us I also like the contrast of the old outside and modern tardis inside .

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Yes, in the same way that a Victorian terrace with nice fireplaces is very different to a new built Barratt "potty little 'Ouse", or how an Alvis TA14 drop head coupe is to a Ford Focus.

 

It's a direct material connection to the past, which has advantages and disadvantages. Your average Big Northwich is going to, probably, cost more to maintain than your average "Northwich Trader"- from any builder- not least because it is still floating about half a century after it was meant to be worn out and finished. Work needs to be done by specialists, not just any old yard, and it has to be done in certain ways- e.g. Cutting off Spitfire's round chines and replacing with square. Functional, and the boat still floats- but it's less authentically like what it was.

 

You get the fun of researching the past, of finding on Facebook the grandchild of the boatman who worked your boat, of finding it in old photographs and in books, of looking through gauging tables and seeing the name of your boat.

 

It's certainly not for everyone. For some it's enough just to love the canals; to others, the preservation of attitudes and boating techniques is as important as boats themselves. To some, it's snobbish and elitist, to others, it's conserving heritage.

 

This has been a bit of a stream of consciousness post, but really what I'm trying to say is that an old boat has what some might call a provenance, a history, that a more modern boat doesn't have- yet.

 

Very true, and exactly as I felt about Heart of Gold, and now my new boat. but neither have a monetairy value, linked to their age or heritage. They are loved and cherised, and some people spend more money than they are worth, because of that. I bought both my boats at a low price, because of the condition they are in. One was a 113 year old riveted iron BCN boat. Burned out, and fit for scraping.I paid what turned out to be a bargain. I turned her into a working boat once more, had three good years on her, and sold her for a fair price, to a new owner who will keep her working. I have now bought a boat which some people consider a classic. I saw a neglected boat with potential. I offered a relevant amount of money, and got a bargain again. But in both cases, I bought the boat that I really wanted, but at a sensible price.

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Very true, and exactly as I felt about Heart of Gold, and now my new boat. but neither have a monetairy value, linked to their age or heritage. They are loved and cherised, and some people spend more money than they are worth, because of that. I bought both my boats at a low price, because of the condition they are in. One was a 113 year old riveted iron BCN boat. Burned out, and fit for scraping.I paid what turned out to be a bargain. I turned her into a working boat once more, had three good years on her, and sold her for a fair price, to a new owner who will keep her working. I have now bought a boat which some people consider a classic. I saw a neglected boat with potential. I offered a relevant amount of money, and got a bargain again. But in both cases, I bought the boat that I really wanted, but at a sensible price.

As you say, it doesn't necessarily add anything to the initial purchase price.

 

But I feel that worth can be assessed in more than purely financial terms. The worth of Willow in financial terms is probably the same, or possibly even less, than a modern boat of similar specification, but if you gauge worth in other ways, it's unique and worth more.

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  • 2 weeks later...

 

Agree..... I don't think many buying them are seriously expecting to make money out of them!

 

Well clearly the actual price in pounds that can be commanded for one will continue to increase over time. I would be very happy to secure now for £30,000 what I might reasonably have expected to spend £3,000 on (say) 40 years ago.

 

I guess it depends what index you take, but it seems general UK price inflation has not actually yielded quite a ten-fold increase in the average price of things in the last 40 years, so you could argue that if a boat worth £3,000 in 1973 would fetch £40,000 now that you have to some extent beaten inflation.

 

But realistically, unless you had had somewhere to keep said boat at zero cost for the intervening 40 years, where it didn't rust at all, and the engine would still start when you took it out of storage, then you are going to have spent a heap of money ensuring that it was still worth the going rate.

 

So no, definitely not an investment.

 

SNIP

 

Sounds like a sub set descriptor of a "storage of value" - like gold - except you get use out of a boat.

 

Eg -

 

You invest to make money; or perhaps lose money

 

You keep money under the matress and, 30 years later it's woth nowt

 

Or you purchase a commodity - with a hope it keeps it's value - like gold

 

Or you purchase a useful commodity like a lump of steel fashioned into a vessel and you get back what you paid for it 30 years later in real terms; albeit you have had use out of it but paid maintenace.

Edited by mark99
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Have you found a boat yet Alan?

 

 

Unfortunately no.

 

Once again we thought we had, and it was looking good, but unfortunately the potential vendor eventually changed their mind about wanting to sell it.

 

Gutted - at the moment we seem doomed to thinking we are close to doing a deal on a boat, only to see it then become unavailable.

 

Don't fancy an unconverted Josher do you?

 

Only if I'm allowed to convert it!

 

Definitely looking for an old boat with enough of a conversion on to replace our present leisure boat.

 

Anyone know of anything else, please?

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The Kearley & Tongue coal traffic only lasted a very short while after other regular long distance coal traffic to mills in that area ended, I think, and there was still the shorter distance lime pulp traffic from Brentford to Boxmoor running on a fairly regular basis too, so you could for example argue that Arcas & Actis, Tadworth & Bakewell and Stanton and Bude are just as "historic" as the final "Jam 'Ole' pairs. I think the 'Jam Ole' attracts such attention because the boats were generally kept in fine form, and hence far more photographed, I would say. (Also their assosciation with Braunston Marina means Tim Coghlan is likely to contine to extract many column inches in magazines and books about them for years to come!....)

 

It has been pointed out to me that I made a typo in naming the last 3 BW pairs used on the Roses lime pulp traffic. Should have been Stamford (not Stanton) and Bude.

 

I did know that (honestly!).

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Alan, this might appear a bit hard but you do always 'stuff about' with these things, except it would appear with Sickle for some strange reason. If you find something that ALMOST suits you just have to go for it without discussing it with all and sundry. Nothing on gods earth with be absolutely perfect for you so just accept it and go for the next one that appears from what ever source and i mean GO FOR IT. Once you have something that almost suits you then have the ability to sort it. You are lucky you have the power of cash which always speaks loudest and you have a clear vision so the very best to you and Catrin in your search and I will keep my ear to the ground. Sorry that I was responsible for awakening these dark longings:)

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Alan, this might appear a bit hard but you do always 'stuff about' with these things, except it would appear with Sickle for some strange reason. If you find something that ALMOST suits you just have to go for it without discussing it with all and sundry. Nothing on gods earth with be absolutely perfect for you so just accept it and go for the next one that appears from what ever source and i mean GO FOR IT. Once you have something that almost suits you then have the ability to sort it. You are lucky you have the power of cash which always speaks loudest and you have a clear vision so the very best to you and Catrin in your search and I will keep my ear to the ground. Sorry that I was responsible for awakening these dark longings:)

Oh trust me, we have not tried to hold back from "going for it" on the two we have lost out on so far! It's the sellers who have failed to "go for it".

 

Cash doesn't speak particularly loud, if the person selling changes their mind about whether to sell in the first place! (I suppose I could still try offering them heaps more than the value, but I ain't going to!).

 

Actually we have I think now realised that there are certain aspects that many historic boats have that probably don't make them that close a match for our needs. One particular thing is whether "walk through" or not - most GUCCCo conversions for example have not been opened up to give passage through the engine room, and in the case of the two GUCCCo boats we have looked at to date, it would not have been easy to arrange this. Not terribly "traditional" or "authentic" I know, but neither is 40 feet of steel cabin where the hold used to be, and with the dog, safe access right though is very very handy, so I'm prepared to bury authenticity.

 

We haven't I think lost out on any boat yet by lack of enthusiasm, but I'm not yet at a stage where I either want to take on something that needs a huge degree of changing, or where I know I am paying seriously too much to secure it. (The one we just lost we were in my view prepared to pay significantly over its probable value already, because we considered it a particularly good match to our needs...).

 

Undoubtedly we paid top end price for "Sickle", but have never once regretted that decision. Totally unique, and we love her! Will probably do the same if right converted boat appears!

 

 

 

 

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Having a backcabin and engine room that is not a walk through doesnt actually matter that much. I have a dog and he's quite happy staying in the backcabin when we move. Also the gunnels tend to be wide enough to easily walk down. The beauty of course with a none walk through backcabin/engine room on RUFFORD is the massive double bed at the back, by the time its in it will measure practically 7ft by 7ft.

 

I thought having a none walk through back cabin and engine room would be hardwork and hassle, but it really is not so please dont let that limit your options!

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