Water pressure issue

[born2zsolt]

Hello,

 

I live on a 45FT narrowboat, and few days ago my domestic water system started to play up.

First it just bursted out with water when i opened tap then went on as usual, but since yesterday i keep loosing pressure after running taps for a while, and then i loose all pressure but the pump keeps running. It looks like it can output only certain amount of water then it fails.

 

I have a flojet R4305 - 500 installed, i put some photos of model and arrangement here>

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/f5wpaxhxsli0kok/uvBnpvbWbb

 

 

I was trying to air the system using this trick i have found on anther forum>

"Folks should get in the habit of turning off the water pressure and then opening one of the faucets to bleed the air out when they leave the boat to take the pressure off the pump diaphragm, then shut the faucet. When you return, and turn the pressure switch on again, the pump will run for a very short time."

 

...but it resulted extreme amount of bubbling noise in the system otherwise yielded no results, apart of having water for a while (plus some rust today!) then loosing all pressure again.

so now i keep turning of the pump circuits to keep the pump from buzzing forever (it keeps coming back if i turn electricity on). It somehow fixes system for a little while, i have running water, the pump turns itself off when turning taps off(with a kind of odd delay), but then i loose pressure again.

 

Please let me know if you have any idea how to fix it.

 

Thanks

 

Zsolt

 

 

 

 

[OldGoldy]

Hello,

 

I live on a 45FT narrowboat, and few days ago my domestic water system started to play up.

First it just bursted out with water when i opened tap then went on as usual, but since yesterday i keep loosing pressure after running taps for a while, and then i loose all pressure but the pump keeps running. It looks like it can output only certain amount of water then it fails.

<snip>

...but it resulted extreme amount of bubbling noise in the system otherwise yielded no results, apart of having water for a while (plus some rust today!) then loosing all pressure again.

<snip>

Please let me know if you have any idea how to fix it.

 

 

 

 

Your photos do not show the source of the water, so we do not know if there is a filter in the supply side.

 

You *have* mentioned rust - this could be blocking your system at either the tank outlet, or in the filter (if fitted).

[Dalslandia]

Are you at a high altitude in relationship to the water tower?

No it sounds like the pump is starved for water, filter or rust at pipe outlet from tank?

 

Jan

[born2zsolt]

Hello,

 

Thank you for your response.

OldGoldy, I own boat only for half a year so i don't know the plumbing intimately yet. Where the filters would be?

 

Dalslandia, the pump is located at the stern while the water tank in bow, if this is what you were asking? not sure about the water tower.

 

All my troubles strated after refilling my water tank (no inspection hatch whatsoever!), so dirt can be the cause, i suppose, although i don't quite understand how it recovers over couple of overs of being turned off, then failing again?

 

Thanks

[bottle]

 

Where the filters would be?

 

Between the tank and the pump.

 

 

the pump is located at the stern while the water tank in bow,

 

This would be a very unusual set up,are you confusing your water pump with your bilge pump.

 

 

All my troubles strated after refilling my water tank (no inspection hatch whatsoever!), so dirt can be the cause, i suppose, although i don't quite understand how it recovers over couple of overs of being turned off, then failing again?

 

 

This is typically when the problem you describe happens, when filling your tank you have disturbed the gunge in the bottom this has moved to the tank outlet and when the pump is on is drawn to the outlet and blocks it, when the pump is turned off it falls back into the tank and repeats.

 

A temporary solution maybe to blow down the pipe towards the tank after checking and cleaning the filter if you have one, the more permanent solution is to get into the tank and clean it out. this may involve cutting an inspection hatch.

[OldGoldy]

Hello,

 

Thank you for your response.

OldGoldy, I own boat only for half a year so i don't know the plumbing intimately yet. Where the filters would be?

 

<snip>

 

All my troubles strated after refilling my water tank (no inspection hatch whatsoever!), so dirt can be the cause, i suppose, although i don't quite understand how it recovers over couple of overs of being turned off, then failing again?

 

 

The filter may be near the tank outlet, or near the pump inlet (often a clear plastic bowl over a red/orange base).

 

When drawing water, the flow would lift any debris, then..............

 

.......I see bottle has answered whilst I was typing! - Can't add to that!

[born2zsolt]

Thanks everyone for swift reply, you are amazing!

i will go through the boat to find the water filter tonight , i might not have one installed though, does this mean buying a new pump?

[OldGoldy]

Thanks everyone for swift reply, you are amazing!

i will go through the boat to find the water filter tonight , i might not have one installed though, does this mean buying a new pump?

 

Unlikely to be the pump, although you may have some gunge in it's inlet gauze??. If it's not that and you don't have a filter, then I would think there's build up of rust around the pick-up pipe in the water tank, maybe even in a low-lying section of inlet piping. I'd have thought then that it will need a good flushing to remove loose rust deposits.

[bottle]

 

does this mean buying a new pump?

 

No you can buy a separate one, it just needs to go between the tank and the pump, as close to the tank as possible.

 

If you need to fit one you may want to think about moving the pump to as near as practical to the tank but that may mean rewiring it.

 

So from tank outlet, in this order, isolation valve (tap), strainer (filter), pump.

 

example of strainer here; link

[smileypete]

Looking at the pics, the inlet filter is right there on the left of the pump, though undoing it may be a little tricky.

 

There's also a drain off below the pump, this would be a good place to attach a hose to back flush the supply pipe from the pump.

 

If the tank is really iffy and the pump strainer keeps blocking then one of those big 10" filters with a sediment element should hold things at bay until the tank is sorted.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited September 14, 2013 by smileypete

[bottle]

Arrrr!! missed the photo's.

[OldGoldy]

Arrrr!! missed the photo's.

 

Saw the photos, missed the filter! Must get to Srecsavers Specsavers!

[born2zsolt]

Wow, is THAT a filter?

 

So this morning's findings> I turned the pump circuit back, opened tap, and managed to run it for at least half an hour(also took a shower, hey!) with no problem although with intermittent splurts of air from tap, I Can't help thinking that i might also have air in the system causing some or all trouble.

 

Anyhow after closing tap the pump kept running, so i shut the circuit again :-( i will clean the filter then report back.

 

I suppose when dismantling filter i only have to worry about the small amount of water between filter and pump if i closed main tap at tank, as filter is higher than the rest of the pipe between filter and tank tap, and pump would not let water running back from the pipes between pump and faucets? Or what is the iffy nature of fixing filter?

 

 

Thanks for all amazing advice.

[Captain Fizz]

Where are you, you could possibly use some help.

[born2zsolt]

Hello Everyone,

 

The solution was ridiculously simple, yes you were right the pump being starved of water, but it was not because of blockage on pipes, but because i - apparently - tightened water tank cap too much, hence vacuum was created in water tank!

It also explains how system recovered over night just to fail again few minutes later - i suppose enough water leaked into water tank to counter vacuum.

I am not sure why it did not happen earlier.

 

Anyhow in long run i would need to cut inspection hatch to access water tank. Any idea/recommendation where it can be done well and how much it will cost?

 

Many thanks for all of you again,

 

Zsolt

[brian1042]

Hello Everyone,

 

The solution was ridiculously simple, yes you were right the pump being starved of water, but it was not because of blockage on pipes, but because i - apparently - tightened water tank cap too much, hence vacuum was created in water tank!

It also explains how system recovered over night just to fail again few minutes later - i suppose enough water leaked into water tank to counter vacuum.

I am not sure why it did not happen earlier.

 

Anyhow in long run i would need to cut inspection hatch to access water tank. Any idea/recommendation where it can be done well and how much it will cost?

 

Many thanks for all of you again,

 

Zsolt

 

Am I missing something? I am very confused. Take the filler cap of the water tank, fill with water, and if there was a vaccuum (which seems a bit odd) then it would no longer be there. From where would water leak into the water tank to counter a vacuum? If such a thing could occur how would a vacuum exist?

 

I am not trying to be difficult or contrary. I am hoping this thread may help with one or two of my own issues and your last post is really hard for me to understand. Out of interest I had to clear all sorts of stuff from my tank - it is all in another post on here somewhere.

 

If I am being slow on the uptake please tell me.

[OldGoldy]

 

Am I missing something? I am very confused. Take the filler cap of the water tank, fill with water, and if there was a vaccuum (which seems a bit odd) then it would no longer be there. From where would water leak into the water tank to counter a vacuum? If such a thing could occur how would a vacuum exist?

 

I am not trying to be difficult or contrary. I am hoping this thread may help with one or two of my own issues and your last post is really hard for me to understand. Out of interest I had to clear all sorts of stuff from my tank - it is all in another post on here somewhere.

 

If I am being slow on the uptake please tell me.

 

Sorry, but you are being slow on the uptake.

 

If the OP fills his tank and then screws the cap on tightly, it seals the tank, assuming there are no breather outlets.

He then draws water, from the sole remaining outlet, but the water used is not replaced by air, so a vacuum is created.

This vacuum wil (eventually) stop more water being released into the system.

 

Think about pouring milk or OJ from a box, unless poured slowly, the box sides shrink in, the liquid then stops until

air is drawn past the obstruction (the liquid) and the box returns to it's normal shape, then repeats (glug, glug)

This is also the same reason, when pouring oil from a 5L container you get it everywhere but where it's supposed

to go (unless you know of the technique of positioning the spout uppermost)

 

Geddit??

 

 

ETA forgot smiley

Edited September 20, 2013 by OldGoldy

[bottle]

 

(unless you know of the technique of positioning the spout uppermost)

 

Try laying the 5L container on its side, if you have the room, to pour.

Edited September 20, 2013 by bottle

[brian1042]

 

Sorry, but you are being slow on the uptake.

 

If the OP fills his tank and then screws the cap on tightly, it seals the tank, assuming there are no breather outlets.

He then draws water, from the sole remaining outlet, but the water used is not replaced by air, so a vacuum is created.

This vacuum wil (eventually) stop more water being released into the system.

 

Think about pouring milk or OJ from a box, unless poured slowly, the box sides shrink in, the liquid then stops until

air is drawn past the obstruction (the liquid) and the box returns to it's normal shape, then repeats (glug, glug)

This is also the same reason, when pouring oil from a 5L container you get it everywhere but where it's supposed

to go (unless you know of the technique of positioning the spout uppermost)

 

Geddit??

 

 

ETA forgot smiley

 

Thanks. But why no breather? That means no overflow I think. This is the first time I saw that the OP has no breather. Was this posted somewhere?

 

Taking the filler cap off would remove a vaccuum in such a case. That does not seem to be happening here, so I still don't get it. I also cannot see how water can leak in to a vacuum and a vacuum remain. If there is a leak there cannot be a vacuum. It would also seem really strange to have a system that is designed to create such a vacuum. Clearly it was working before so the system is not designed like that - it must have a breather or something else that would prevent the effects you describe. Perhaps they are blocked. If it works as you state, the vacuum issue would have occured from day 1 and be a permanent feature wouldn't it?

Edited September 21, 2013 by brian1042

[OldGoldy]

 

Thanks. But why no breather? That means no overflow I think. This is the first time I saw that the OP has no breather. Was this posted somewhere?

 

Taking the filler cap off would remove a vaccuum in such a case. That does not seem to be happening here, so I still don't get it. I also cannot see how water can leak in to a vacuum and a vacuum remain. If there is a leak there cannot be a vacuum. It would also seem really strange to have a system that is designed to create such a vacuum. Clearly it was working before so the system is not designed like that - it must have a breather or something else that would prevent the effects you describe. Perhaps they are blocked. If it works as you state, the vacuum issue would have occured from day 1 and be a permanent feature wouldn't it?

 

Sorry, you need to read and re-read the whole thread and post #15 in particular, where the OP now sees his problem but has clearly made a typo and should have said i suppose enough AIR leaked into water tank to counter vacuum.

[brian1042]

 

Sorry, you need to read and re-read the whole thread and post #15 in particular, where the OP now sees his problem but has clearly made a typo and should have said i suppose enough AIR leaked into water tank to counter vacuum.

 

Yes, point taken. If air can leak in there is still no vacuum, by definition. Any thoughts on the other points I made about the breather and the system?

[born2zsolt]

 

Sorry, but you are being slow on the uptake.

 

If the OP fills his tank and then screws the cap on tightly, it seals the tank, assuming there are no breather outlets.

He then draws water, from the sole remaining outlet, but the water used is not replaced by air, so a vacuum is created.

This vacuum wil (eventually) stop more water being released into the system.

 

Think about pouring milk or OJ from a box, unless poured slowly, the box sides shrink in, the liquid then stops until

air is drawn past the obstruction (the liquid) and the box returns to it's normal shape, then repeats (glug, glug)

This is also the same reason, when pouring oil from a 5L container you get it everywhere but where it's supposed

to go (unless you know of the technique of positioning the spout uppermost)

 

Geddit??

 

 

ETA forgot smiley

Thank you for explaining the situation lot better than i probably did....just got overjoyed for finding solution. Now i have to find breather!

Thanks All

[nb Innisfree]

 

Yes, point taken. If air can leak in there is still no vacuum, by definition. Any thoughts on the other points I made about the breather and the system?

It's not a vacuum being created just pressure dropping to below that on the outside, due to air entering tank slower than water being drawn off, when water flow slows down air is able to catch up, (a bit like the centipede effect with traffic on the motorway?)