new water pump - flickering lights issue!!

[silverbuttocks]

morning all!!

 

i recently replaced my water pump to something a bit more powerful as i had issues with water pressure and my paloma not working very well, now there is plenty of pressure, in fact so much so that the water does not have time to get hot enough now as it passes through the boiler too quickly (the opposite of what i had before which was water too hot, but with the addition of cold reduced the pressure and so stopped the boiler burning - they're pretty contrary and fickle these boats I'm finding out!!).

 

the new issue is this: when i try and turn the hot tap down a little (or even the cold tap for that matter) the pump sort of only comes half on, judders a little and the lights flicker. what is going on with this???? with the old pump if i turned the tap down a little there would still be a steady decrease in pump speed, water pressure etc, now it seems like the pump only likes it when the taps are full on, not half on?? And why would this affect the electrics?? has anyone had this problem before?

 

yours rather frustradedly

 

SB

[Bill]

Some pumps have an internal bypass and do not need an accumulator to smooth out the pressure. Is your new pump one which needs an accumulator where your old one did not? Should be in the bumf that came with the pump. What is the new pumps pressure/flow spec compared to the old?

[bottle]

The judder may be the pressure switch chattering as it turns on and off very fast.

 

The light flashing shows voltage fluctuations and will coincide with the pump chatter.

 

Do you have an accumulator in the system, if so this may be set at the wrong pressure for your new pump.

[silverbuttocks]

hi bill, bottle - thanks for your speedy replies - amazes me this forum...

 

the new pump is a jabsco par max 3 3.5 GPM - i don't have an accumulator tank, pipe straight from the tank to the pump via a small strainer, that's all. the previous pump was a flojet 'quiet quad' 3.3 GPM, and there was no flickering lights etc with this one. really annoying as i seem to have fixed the shower/paloma issue, but now have this flickering, uneven flow problem

 

to be honest, the new pump doesn't seem really uneven, but when you turn a tap on full the flow is initially slowish and then the pump kicks in proper, when reducing the flow slightly, it goes into this intermediate mode when the pump makes a bit of a chattering noise and the electricity fluctuates in time to the pump...

 

grrrrrrrrrrrr....

 

please tell me this is something simple!!! maybe i have an airlock?? water is running low - mainly as i was buggering around testing the new pump so much yesterday...

[DeanS]

Have you tried adjusting the pressure screw on the pump. It will change the way the pump activates/acts

[silverbuttocks]

ha, nope, not done that!! as you can tell, i am new to all of this, but learning fast...

 

i can't find the flipping instructions to this new pump right now but will have a look on t'interweb. that sounds like it could be a relatively pain-free fix if that were the problem!!

[bottle]

the flows are as near to the same as will not make any difference but it may now be the pressure, as Dean mentioned.

[DHutch]

I would defiantly get a small accumulator if I where you, see past threads.

 

Jabsco par max 3 is a good pump.

 

 

Daniel

[Bill]

I would defiantly get a small accumulator if I where you, see past threads.

 

Jabsco par max 3 is a good pump.

 

 

Daniel

I think Daniel has it right. Looking at the spec your old Flojet has a "Built-in bypass valve eliminates the need for an accumulator tank." , So I think the easiest solution would be a small accumulator somewhere on the pressure side (outlet) of the pump. Just stick a T piece in the pipe with the accumulator on the end of the T.

[silverbuttocks]

Hi All,

 

I'm confused. Not even sure what an accumulator tank is, how much one costs, how big they are etc etc etc. If I didn't need one before I don't see why I need one now. I thought that these pumps were essentially the same. If I bought the wrong pump then I can disconnect it and sell it - this would be preferable to the expense of another piece of apparatus (i.e. the accumulator), unless of course they cost peanuts, take minutes to fit, and are the size of a ping-pong ball). The old pump worked absolutely fine without this flickering, so the questions is why can't this be the case again. This par max 3 boasts 'self-priming' and various other all-singing all-dancing features, so I'm struggling to see what it is causing this flickering whilst the old flojet didn't...

 

Sorry if I'm being dense...

[bizzard]

Hi All,

 

I'm confused. Not even sure what an accumulator tank is, how much one costs, how big they are etc etc etc. If I didn't need one before I don't see why I need one now. I thought that these pumps were essentially the same. If I bought the wrong pump then I can disconnect it and sell it - this would be preferable to the expense of another piece of apparatus (i.e. the accumulator), unless of course they cost peanuts, take minutes to fit, and are the size of a ping-pong ball). The old pump worked absolutely fine without this flickering, so the questions is why can't this be the case again. This par max 3 boasts 'self-priming' and various other all-singing all-dancing features, so I'm struggling to see what it is causing this flickering whilst the old flojet didn't...

 

Sorry if I'm being dense...

You could try running a temporary cable direct from the battery pos+ post to the red + feed on the pump to see if that stops the lights flickering because its feed might be taken off or sharing the lighting circuit, and it might needs its own dedicated wiring.

[silverbuttocks]

hmmm...that wouldn't really address the issue though, because the lights are flickering because the pump is behaving in a strange way, and it is the pump issue that I want to resolve...

[bizzard]

hmmm...that wouldn't really address the issue though, because the lights are flickering because the pump is behaving in a strange way, and it is the pump issue that I want to resolve...

Please yourself, but its an easy check to do. Low state of charge batteries can cause this.

[Graham Davis]

The pump isn't "working in a strange way"!! It is doing it's job as it is designed to do.

 

Your old pump had a by-pass that didn't need an accumulator. This pump does not have the by-pass and therefore needs an accumulator.

 

An accumulator is basically a small round reservoir with a bladder across the middle. As the water gets up to pressure it pushes the bladder up, then if the pressure drops slightly the bladder pushes some water into the system to compensate.

 

Basically you bought the wrong pump!

[smileypete]

3.3 gpm is 15lpm, generally palomas and the like work OK with around a 10lpm pump.

 

As Bill asked what's the pressure rating of the new pump, also do you have a calorifier? As Dean says adjusting the cut out pressure a little bit higher can help, but not toooo high if you have a calorifer.

 

Also sounds like the wiring is a little inadequate, could be useful to check the voltage at the pump with a multimeter while it's running, should ideally be 11.5V or more, anything less than 11V may be a bit suspect.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

[DHutch]

Should have said, I'm fairly sure the parmax can be used without an accumulator, however, as accumulators are cheap and easy to fit the performance increased is will worth it. However the issue of the flickering lights is electrical and accumulators are not....

I paid less than this for our 2l one, but if gives you an idea.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Accumulator-or-Expansion-tank-2-litre-ACC2-/180961552752?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_BoatEquipment_Accessories_SM&hash=item2a22262970

or

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Accumulator-or-Expansion-tank-Jabsco-0-6-litre-ACC06-/110676768145?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_BoatEquipment_Accessories_SM&hash=item19c4d97591

 

 

See also

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=59857

 

 

Daniel

[silverbuttocks]

bizzard - much appreciated - didn't mean to be flippant about your advice. i'll certainly look at that too

 

graham - this is actually what i wanted to hear, sort of. can you recommend a pump with a bypass that has the same spec as the par max 3. annoying really as i didn;t realise this basic difference

 

smpt - the paloma definitely didn;t work, at least for the bathroom at the other end of the boat - fine for the galley. the par max 3 is 13.2LPM and 25PSI. we do have a calorifier. i will check the wiring as per yours and bizzard's recommendations

 

basically, if i bought the wrong pump, which pump should i buy?? and what do i have to look for in the pump in terms of wording for one that has a bypass and thus not needing an accumulator?

 

thanks for all your help so far!!

[Higgs]

On the electric side - my wiring needs updating, the pump's electric feed is also the same as the lights and they pulse with the pump. More so if the batteries are weak. I think the two circuits should have their own power supply from the main box. It could also be that the wiring is too smaller a gauge to accommodate the current draw. With mine, I think it's more likely to be the wire thickness and the biggest problem, the pump draws the biggest current.

[DHutch]

Depending on where the pump is, whats its currently powered from, and how easy it is. If like higgs your pumps run off the same supply as the lights there would be a lot to be said for changing that to either a dedicated supply back to the fuseboard, or to run from something more substantial.

 

Daniel

[smileypete]

bizzard - much appreciated - didn't mean to be flippant about your advice. i'll certainly look at that too

 

graham - this is actually what i wanted to hear, sort of. can you recommend a pump with a bypass that has the same spec as the par max 3. annoying really as i didn;t realise this basic difference

 

smpt - the paloma definitely didn;t work, at least for the bathroom at the other end of the boat - fine for the galley. the par max 3 is 13.2LPM and 25PSI. we do have a calorifier. i will check the wiring as per yours and bizzard's recommendations

 

basically, if i bought the wrong pump, which pump should i buy?? and what do i have to look for in the pump in terms of wording for one that has a bypass and thus not needing an accumulator?

 

thanks for all your help so far!!

Looks like Par Max 3 has a non adjustable pressure switch , so as others say the best thing may be to get an accumulator, which can be tee'd in anywhere along the cold feed between the pump outlet and the paloma inlet.

 

They can sometimes be had cheaply on Ebay, the blue or white ones the ones to go for as they're rated for potable water, something between 2 to 5 litres capacity should do.

 

Once fitted it should be pressurised to the pump cut in pressure of 10psi using a decent tyre gauge, with taps open and pump off. Sometimes they come pre-pressurised to a much higher pressure which won't do.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited September 15, 2013 by smileypete

[ditchcrawler]

Have you tried adjusting the pressure screw on the pump. It will change the way the pump activates/acts

But he changed it so he could have higher pressure, if he winds it down he may as well kept the old one

[DHutch]

As said, can be tee'd on anywhere in the supply pipe, although idea I would say, between the pump and the first outlet and or close to the pump if you can. More critically, ideally the 'tee' section should be fairly short, to prevent a column of stagnant water, although if it must be a way away you can resolve that be running two pipe most of the way, a flow and return.

 

 

Daniel

[silverbuttocks]

hi all, sorry for the prolonged silence on this issue. i have a bit more information now, and need to clarify a few things:

 

the new pump is fine when the hot tap is on full, but because of the speed of the flow the Paloma does not have time to heat up the water sufficiently to have a decent, hot shower. If I turn the hot tap down a little to reduce the flow, which would increase the temperature of the water, the pump freaks out and sort of chatters on and off (which for some reason is affecting the voltage in the entire system, but forget about electrics for now). The old pump did not do this, and you could reduce the flow to a trickle and the pump would still give an even, but reduced, flow (the problem with the old pump was that it was just not delivering high enough pressure and so was either really hot [hot tap on full, but low flow] or cold [add cold water, but this turned Paloma burner off due to reduction in pressure]).

 

So, a few things to clarify:

 

1. Do you think that the addition of a small accumulator will allow me to reduce the flow from the hot tap without it just switching on and off and chattering at high speeds?

 

2. If the old pump delivered water at any an even flow regardless of whether the hot tap was on full, half etc, why is the new pump different, and should I just get a new pump instead of adding the accumulator, and if so can anyone suggest a pump that will behave the same as the old one (Flojet Quiet Quad), but delivering a slightly higher pressure overall (i.e. 13lpm instead of around 11lpm, which triggers the paloma more efficiently).

 

Surely these paloma boilers are used to decent effect commonly in narrowboats, and surely I can have a pump that works the same as the old one without the new addition of an accumulator, or if not why not? And finally, if the new pump needs an accumulator to ensure even flow regardless whether a tap is fully or partially open, is this the best option rather than selling the new pump and getting one that works like the old one?

 

Does any of that make sense? we just want to be able to have a reasonably hot shower, on demand. maybe that is too much to ask?

[bottle]

1> Yes

 

2> Cannot recommend a pump but as others have said your old pump had a by-pass, if I remember correctly, so when the pressure built it basically stopped trying to pump water to the taps.

 

The new pump does not have this facility, so when you reduce the flow ( lpm ) the pressure backs up so the pump switches off, the pressure then drops so the pumps starts, hence the chattering.

 

An accumulator would smooth out this pressure difference and so the water would constantly flow at a constant pressure.

[Alastair]

You should fit an accumulator. It will help a great deal, particularly with the Paloma.

 

An accumulator will smooth out the waterflow - which means constant temp from the Paloma.

 

You said that you had issues with the old pump - the new pump is fine, it just needs an accumulator.

 

Not having one is like not putting air in the tyres in your car, then complaining about the handling.