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discrimination against boaters by vet


flickadancer

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Hello,

I thought I ought to share this with you.

On the 24th of July we were cruising on the K and A canal when our dog (out walking about a mile from the boat with my husband) had what the vet later described as a severe allergic reaction. He didn't even have his phone but a fisherman and several passers by and two wonderful lock keepers rang the local vet for him. The first was out on a call but would have come but the second, on hearing that we were on a boat, refused to come out. It took 45 minutes to carry the unconscious dog to the kind fisherman's car and drive to the vet - it would have taken him about five minutes to get to my husband. The result was that the dog died. The vet later tried to say that even if we had possessed an Epi Pen and injected her immediately she would not have survived, but we think he was covering himself.

We have discussed this now with other boaters, having initially been in a state of total shock as she was only a middle aged dog in very good health and used to long walks.

The moral of this story is - "if you need the vet for your pet do NOT tell him that you live on a boat as he will assume you have no money and refuse to come". Or at least this particular vet did. I would hate to be accused of tarring them all with the same brush (the first one would have come out) but it is better to be safe than sorry. Or say you are on holiday and they will not make assumptions and discriminate against you.

You can imagine how we are feeling about this.

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Sorry you lost your dog but~

 

Why are you saying it was because he/she believed you would have no money? Did they actually say this?

 

Or is that an assumption.

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I am sorry to hear this and find it interesting as I was under the impression a Vet wasn't allowed by the rules of their profession to refuse to treat an animal in need. I was told that some years ago by the father of a vet so things may have changed.

 

Could it have been blue green algae poisoning?

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Sorry about your dog, it must be very upsetting. I can't really see why a vet would care, or even understand what you meant, if you said you lived on a boat, but perhaps this one did. As to money, I think must peoples perception is that if you have a boat then you are loaded, andI thougth vets would treat strays etc first anyway and worry about payment later.

Edited by john6767
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I am sorry to hear this and find it interesting as I was under the impression a Vet wasn't allowed by the rules of their profession to refuse to treat an animal in need. I was told that some years ago by the father of a vet so things may have changed.

 

Could it have been blue green algae poisoning?

 

They are AFAIK and the OP would potentially have grounds to complain to the rcvs.

 

http://www.rcvs.org.uk/home/

 

Ed to add Link to complaints page

 

http://www.rcvs.org.uk/complaints/

Edited by The Dog House
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How sad for all concerned.

 

Can i just point out though that the OP doesn't state that the vet refused to come out as he/she believed they had no money. This bit is added on in the OP's own words as the moral of the story.

 

I urge caution before this thread develops with lot's of replies based on people thinking the vet said something they probably didn't.

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How sad for all concerned.

 

Can i just point out though that the OP doesn't state that the vet refused to come out as he/she believed they had no money. This bit is added on in the OP's own words as the moral of the story.

 

I urge caution before this thread develops with lot's of replies based on people thinking the vet said something they probably didn't.

I never suggested it was to do with money I just said I thought they weren't allowed to refuse treatment for any reason.

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How sad for all concerned.

 

Can i just point out though that the OP doesn't state that the vet refused to come out as he/she believed they had no money. This bit is added on in the OP's own words as the moral of the story.

 

I urge caution before this thread develops with lot's of replies based on people thinking the vet said something they probably didn't.

Hence me trying to seek clarification in post two.

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It could be that the vet assesed that finding the boat could be difficult /awkward and that it would be better if you went to the vets.

 

Or he may have thought what's to stop you moving off in the boat once the bill was mentioned.

 

Discrimination is a bit of an emotive word.

Edited by mark99
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It could be that the vet assesed that finding the boat could be difficult /awkward and that it would be better if you went to the vets.

 

Or he may have thought what's to stop you moving off in the boat once the bill was mentioned.

 

Discrimination is a bit of an emotive word.

 

Indeed the actual reason for the refusal to come out to the boat is very important, especially if the complaint was taken further to a formal complaint.

 

Without knowing anywhere near the full circumstances if the refusal was indeed that it would be difficult to locate the animal that I would suggest be something that the vet concerned would offer in mitigation, as it may indeed have been quicker to secure the emergency treatment needed if the dog was brought to the surgery, however if the refusal was based on 'I might not have got paid' then I suspect this will be looked at much less favourably.

 

As to the use of the emotive word discrimination - the OP is obviously feeling emotive so perhaps that is to be expected.

Edited by The Dog House
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It may be due to the rural area I have grown up in but I wouldn't have thought a spot on a towpath would be any harder to find than a field or for that matter a horse being used for timber extraction in a forest. (OK maybe not done now but I have seen it not too many years ago).

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It may be due to the rural area I have grown up in but I wouldn't have thought a spot on a towpath would be any harder to find than a field or for that matter a horse being used for timber extraction in a forest. (OK maybe not done now but I have seen it not too many years ago).

 

Actually that is a good point - vets must be used to locating injured animals in rural/remote locations, at least vets who cover rural areas, as not all do of course.

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As a service engineer earning a living attending call-outs a little like this (but for boilers, not dogs) I think I can imagine how your call came across to the vet.

 

I'd suggest that without a postcode and therefore no clear idea of where you were, the vet thought this sounded like a bit of a wild goose chase. On the phone call from the fisherman, it probably sounded to him as though he could easily have spent a hour or three tramping the towpaths and still not found you.

 

In addition, with no postal address he would be unable to take legal action against you to recover the costs of the call-out should you fail to pay, whether or not he found you. People DO fail to pay vets occasionally, especially after the emergency situation has passed. On balance, he probably decided to leave another vet to take the risk.

 

Not excusing him, just putting across his probable thought process so you can understand what probably happened. Offering to pay the call-out charge in advance over the phone just *might* have made a difference.

 

And I'm very sorry to hear your dog died as a result of this. My sympathies.

 

 

MtB

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It may be due to the rural area I have grown up in but I wouldn't have thought a spot on a towpath would be any harder to find than a field or for that matter a horse being used for timber extraction in a forest. (OK maybe not done now but I have seen it not too many years ago).

It's still done here. Lighter impact and anyway a tractor couldn't hack it on our patch.

 

IME urban/small animal vets don't deliver, yu have to take the wreckage to their door (with full wallet).

 

Based on last comment I look for my tin/kevlar hat and slink away.

 

To OP I'm very sorry to hear abut your dog but am no way surprised by the responce of one of the vets. The one on call was the real deal.

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People DO fail to pay vets occasionally, especially after the emergency situation has passed.

 

 

Before I joined my OH full time in his Will Writing business I ran a debt recovery service, by far my best customers were vets.

Most of these vets have a policy of not giving credit but still end up out of pocket. One equine vet practice I visited had £90,000 of overdue bills outstanding, a worst case scenario I'll admit but the three vet clients I still have refer an average of £3,000 overdue accounts each month with amounts from £30 upwards.

 

Call outs are problematic as cheques bounce, people don't have cash and not all vets have mobile facilities to accept cards.

 

I'm not suggesting this was the case with the vet in question, just highlighting the problems.

 

Alyson

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People DO fail to pay vets occasionally, especially after the emergency situation has passed.

 

 

Before I joined my OH full time in his Will Writing business I ran a debt recovery service, by far my best customers were vets.

Most of these vets have a policy of not giving credit but still end up out of pocket. One equine vet practice I visited had £90,000 of overdue bills outstanding, a worst case scenario I'll admit but the three vet clients I still have refer an average of £3,000 overdue accounts each month with amounts from £30 upwards.

 

Call outs are problematic as cheques bounce, people don't have cash and not all vets have mobile facilities to accept cards.

 

I'm not suggesting this was the case with the vet in question, just highlighting the problems.

 

Alyson

 

Interesting. Just as I thought then. This vet would probably happily have turned out had he had a POS machine and been able to relieve the OP of £100 before leaving the practice. Instead, he was probably thinking his bad debt mountain was about to rise from £3,000 to £3,300. It's a horrible feeling to do your best for someone, put real personal effort into a call out, miss your Sunday lunch for example, or cancel an evening down the pub with your mates to do the call-out, then not get paid.

 

The thing about the call coming in from a mobile phone that wasn't even the number the vet could call the customer back on to verify the location should he get lost was probably the deal breaker. There is NO WAY I'd go on a call-out where the punter has 'borrowed a phone' to make the call.

 

A real in this case, but looks for all the world like a hoax call from the vet's POV.

 

 

Interesting. Just as I thought then. This vet would probably happily have turned out had he had a POS machine and been able to relieve the OP of £100 before leaving the practice. Instead, he was probably thinking his bad debt mountain was about to rise from £3,000 to £3,300. It's a horrible feeling to do your best for someone, put real personal effort into a call out, miss your Sunday lunch for example, or cancel an evening down the pub with your mates to do the call-out, then not get paid.

 

The thing about the call coming in from a mobile phone that wasn't even the number the vet could call the customer back on to verify the location should he get lost was probably the deal breaker. There is NO WAY I'd go on a call-out where the punter has 'borrowed a phone' to make the call.

 

A real call in this case, but from the vet's POV it would have looked for all the world like a hoax call.

 

MtB

 

 

(Edited to move my reply out of the 'quoted' box.)

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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Commiserations re the dog, but 'lives on a boat' is akin to 'no fixed abode' . There's lots of threads on here around difficulties with delivery of services, benefits, car registration, getting on to surgery lists etc etc - all associated with the lifestyle choice.

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Personally I'd like to know a bit(lot) more about exactly what was said and exactly why they wouldn't come out.

 

It's a shame that the OP hasn't come back with more clarification.

 

The Vet is bound by a professional code of conduct, the breaching of which could ultimately lose them their right to practice and thus their lively hood. So I'm really curious as to what the real reason was as I think the comments in the OP about 'the moral of the story' have led us along a possible path which actually could be a blind alley.

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Some facts for context:

 

A veterinary surgeon is under no obligation to offer an outcall service. Some/most vets offer this service (although an increasingly large number of small animal vets do not) but no vet or veterinary staff are under any obligation to treat animals outside of their practice, or to attend to any location outside of their surgery if they do not wish to, for any reason. Getting patient to vet is the responsibility of the owner, not viceversa.

I worked for a long time in a large emergency referral centre and 24 hour veterinary hospital in London that covered the out of hours provision for almost 20 practices, and we did not offer a collection or outcall service.

Even in some practices that do offer an outcall service, this is an added and enhanced service, not one they are obliged to do, and vets can reject outcall visits for any reason, ie, too busy, transport issues, area not safe, anything. Unlike people, there is no compulsory paramedic or ambulance service for veterinary practices.

 

Practices are obliged to offer provision for an out-of-hours service, even if this just consists of a recorded answerphone message giving the number of a totally unrelated practice or vet that covers their out of hours provision, which might be anything up to an hour or so away.

 

No vet is obliged to accept any owner's pet for treatment/ as a client, so a vet can refuse to allow you to register with their practice, cancel your registration, reject your animal for non-emergency treatment, or refuse to attend your location (if they offer out calls at all). However, if you present at the clinic (any clinic) that is open or that you have called, with an animal in an emergency situation (that is, one in which the pet would die before it could be taken to another vet or is in extreme pain/danger/suffering), the vet is obliged to provide (very limited) emergency treatment only.

A veterinary surgeon is obliged under the oaths of their professional registration to provided immediate emergency treatment to any animal that is presented to them at their place of work while they are offering veterinary services.

 

"Emergency treatment" is classed as treatment that, if it were withheld, would cause preventable pain, suffering or the dramatic worsening of any condition. The limits of the emergency treatment that a veterinary surgeon in these circumstances is obliged to provide amounts to: Either short term pain relief and preventing any problems from worsening while owners are located/ decisions are made about the future treatment protocols for the animal/ another vet or welfare centre is found that is willing to take on the case (ie, something that may take several hours but not more than a day)

OR

To put the animal to sleep if treatment is unviable due to the nature of the problem, or the cost of treatment makes it unviable, or if no one is willing to pay for treatment and to leave the animal in its current condition would cause preventable and serious pain and suffering.

 

The obligations of "emergency treatment" do not cover surgical procedures (even if they would be life-saving) or really anything other than short term pain relief, and simple things like keeping the animal from causing themselves any further harm, stopping bleeding, etc., but all of this is dependent on your transporting the animal to the vet.

 

Most vets will go further than this. I would say probably around half of all practices offer an outcall service, and most vets would go further in their emergency treatment of animals without the firm promise of payment if it was viable, not hugely costly and in the best interests of the patient.

 

It is important for boaters to remember that when you move around a lot, you need to find out details of the local vets and their locations and their numbers for every new area, before something happens.

Register with local vets if you are going to be in the area for any length of time, or if you are not but your pet has a health condition that may need prompt treatment.

Know where you are at all times, and how to direct (vets, emergency services, Tesco!) to you.

Know what you would do in an emergency if something happened to your pet, how you could get help, if you will get phone signal, how to get transport.

These things all seem like overkill- until something happens. I am relatively tied at the moment in terms of where I can moor (how far away from civilization) as I have a pet undergoing treatment and need to be within travelling distance of a practice if something happens, which is what prompted me to consider the above points.

 

I do not know the circumstances of what happened with your dog, whether the vet didn't offer outcalls anyway or had a reason to refuse your visit, or anything else. The vet may have refused to come to a boat because he thought he was never going to find it, or anything. Or they may have simply, as you think, judged you on the basis of what you said and taken a swerve.

When something happens to your pet, especially suddenly as happened with your dog, it always leaves you wondering what the hell happened, what could have made a difference, and re-running things in your head.

It wasn't your fault your dog died. But it wasn't the fault of a local vet who never saw your animal either.

Sad to say, but sometimes these things happen.

I'm sorry about your dog.

Edited by Starcoaster
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Sorry about the dog in question, it must have been very distressing.

I can't speak ill of our vet because he is excellent, but I have been disturbed by other vets in recent years, when the first question they ask is "Have you any insurance?" I believe our vet would attend such a situation, though of course I can't be certain of this.

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Sorry about the dog in question, it must have been very distressing.

I can't speak ill of our vet because he is excellent, but I have been disturbed by other vets in recent years, when the first question they ask is "Have you any insurance?" I believe our vet would attend such a situation, though of course I can't be certain of this.

 

I wonder if you are reading the wrong message into this. I'd suspect collecting £100 from a punter with a credit card is one helluvalot easier and less effort than getting the money out of their insurance company. In addition, if the animal is insured, the vet needs to know the limit of cover in case he accidentally breaches it and neither pet owner nor insurance co are prepared to pay the bill.

 

MtB

P.S. I think this thread ought to be somewhere else, it has little to do with general boating!

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Some facts for context:

 

A veterinary surgeon is under no obligation to offer an outcall service. Some/most vets offer this service (although an increasingly large number of small animal vets do not) but no vet or veterinary staff are under any obligation to treat animals outside of their practice, or to attend to any location outside of their surgery if they do not wish to, for any reason. Getting patient to vet is the responsibility of the owner, not viceversa.

<<>>

It wasn't your fault your dog died. But it wasn't the fault of a local vet who never saw your animal either.

Sad to say, but sometimes these things happen.

I'm sorry about your dog.

Starry, May I offer my thanks for a superbly informative post.

 

Thank you

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Yes Starcoaster, a good post indeed, but may I point out that 'Getting patient to vet' is not always possible.

 

Many years ago, I had a horse slip on the road & his foot slid into a drain, trapping it. A number of us had to lie on the horse ( rather dangerous with the other 3 legs thrashing around) until the vet could attend & sedate him. Not much good if the vet had said, 'oh just bring him to the surgery'.

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On reading this I spoke to my vet (she was in the pub earlier drinking draught hobgoblin). She said she would have attended day or night. As for the owners having no money assumption, the retort I got from my friend said, if that was true, she would never attend at either some Council estates, or to travellers pets.. In fact she reminded me she attended to my dog on a boat in Goole harbour !.

 

She does agree that sometimes locating patients, can be a bit of a problem, but as yet hasn't stopped her eventually getting there. She also reminded me that my animals where insured, regardless of if it was a boat, caravan, or even in the fells.

 

Funny what you learn over a hobgoblin or two.

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